Mathematicians PROVE evolution IMPOSSIBLE.

[4x4toy]

Do you agree that low probability events do happen or not?

You can begin your card experiment and get back to me .. Like never , agree ?

 

[sfs]

You can begin your card experiment and get back to me .. Like never , agree ?

I have a better idea: you make a statement that has something to do with the thread, and then back it up. Agree?

 

[4x4toy]

I have a better idea: you make a statement that has something to do with the thread, and then back it up. Agree?

Weren't we discussing math, probabilities and evolution don't "gee-haw"

 

[Neogaia777]

What is the actual probability of life from non-life...?

(That's what were talking about here right?) So, let's cut to the chase... What is it...?

God Bless!

 

[4x4toy]

What is the actual probability of life from non-life...?

(That's what were talking about here right?) So, let's cut to the chase... What is it...?

God Bless!

Without God, 0% probability ..

 

[Neogaia777]

How many life supporting planets are there in the universe...?

A quick google of this, says this: "Though only about dozen potentially habitable exoplanets have been detected so far, scientists say the universe should be teeming with alien worlds that could support life. The Milky Way alone may host 60 billion such planets around faint red dwarf stars, a new estimate suggests. (Jul 1, 2013)

Link here: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...zmb5lTFCK6xhUayeg&sig2=RRgsUqyEhEylcAyApEFESg

Another here: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...zhaoEyYsJARZdgHMA&sig2=pEKcfY5GMcsYCA3cAk9eNQ

We must take into account that even Mars, probably once supported bacterial, at least, life once...

From Wiki under the Drake equation: "Research on any past life on Mars is relevant since a discovery that life did form on Mars but ceased to exist might raise our estimate of fl but would indicate that in half the known cases, intelligent life did not develop."

Have any of you heard of the Drake equation...?

I am new to it, but find it very interesting,

Here Wiki on it:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...mxd7jk5JhOn-sMZAA&sig2=ksc0v4FpqihsWkhxKYeoPA

We have to consider from it that if, intelligent, like us, life is possible on even one, (yet probably more) but even one other planet in our galaxy, then there are trillions of civilizations like or once like us, on other earth-like planets, cause there are trillions of galaxies, and it's probably even more, like I said...

Wiki says: "Drake states that given the uncertainties, the original meeting concluded that N ≈ L, and there were probably between 1000 and 100,000,000 civilizations in the Milky Way galaxy." (in just our own galaxy, mind you... you do the math)...

Also says: "The figure for the universe implies that it is highly unlikely that Earth hosts the only intelligent life that has ever occurred. The figure for our galaxy suggests that other civilizations may have (already) occurred or will likely occur in our galaxy.[62][63][64][65][66]...

The Fermi paradox, is also mentioned, which adds to this: "The pessimists' most telling argument in the SETI debate stems not from theory or conjecture but from an actual observation: the presumed lack of extraterrestrial contact.[6] A civilization lasting for tens of millions of years would have plenty of time to travel anywhere in the galaxy, even at the slow speeds foreseeable with our own kind of technology. Furthermore, no confirmed signs of intelligence elsewhere have been recognized as such, either in our galaxy or in the observable universe of 2 trillion galaxies.[70][71]According to this line of thinking, the tendency to fill up all available territory seems to be a universal trait of living things, so the Earth should have already been colonized, or at least visited, but no evidence of this exists. Hence Fermi's question "Where is everybody?".[72][73]


I suggest that their is either a no contact rule, like a prime directive from more advanced life, or they've evolved into a kind of existence that allows them to have contact with us (and go anywhere not needing matter or material as we know it) completely undetected by us...

Like it or not, however life began, we are evolving now, socially, technologically... And we have to consider that a civilization before us, has done all of this already, and is now, "beyond" what we know perhaps... If life is not as rare as we have atypically thought, this is almost a certainty matematically speaking...

I support the simulation theory... That all "this" is part of biological matter or material kind of computer programmed simulation, created and governed by a race "beyond" it...

God Bless!

 

[chilehed]

Number of planets in the universe 1/10 ^ 50

Odd's of evolution happenning. 1/10 ^ 2 825 000

That guy hasn't the slightest clue what the Second Law actually says, much less what it actually means.

 

[4x4toy]

How many life supporting planets are there in the universe...?

A quick google of this, says this: "Though only about dozen potentially habitable exoplanets have been detected so far, scientists say the universe should be teeming with alien worlds that could support life. The Milky Way alone may host 60 billion such planets around faint red dwarf stars, a new estimate suggests. (Jul 1, 2013)

Link here: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwizgJ-2zv_RAhXIxlQKHduGDBIQFggfMAE&url=http://www.space.com/21800-alien-planets-60-billion-habitable-exoplanets.html&usg=AFQjCNGD3SKKrty9Czmb5lTFCK6xhUayeg&sig2=RRgsUqyEhEylcAyApEFESg

Another here: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=12&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwizgJ-2zv_RAhXIxlQKHduGDBIQFghLMAs&url=http://science.howstuffworks.com/planets--universe-support-life.htm&usg=AFQjCNHVOo-d0vj6CzhaoEyYsJARZdgHMA&sig2=pEKcfY5GMcsYCA3cAk9eNQ

We must take into account that even Mars, probably once supported bacterial, at least, life once...

From Wiki under the Drake equation: "Research on any past life on Mars is relevant since a discovery that life did form on Mars but ceased to exist might raise our estimate of fl but would indicate that in half the known cases, intelligent life did not develop."

Have any of you heard of the Drake equation...?

I am new to it, but find it very interesting,

Here Wiki on it:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwizgJ-2zv_RAhXIxlQKHduGDBIQFgg1MAY&url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation&usg=AFQjCNEdxkcSxc9RBmxd7jk5JhOn-sMZAA&sig2=ksc0v4FpqihsWkhxKYeoPA

We have to consider from it that if, intelligent, like us, life is possible on even one, (yet probably more) but even one other planet in our galaxy, then there are trillions of civilizations like or once like us, on other earth-like planets, cause there are trillions of galaxies, and it's probably even more, like I said...

Wiki says: "Drake states that given the uncertainties, the original meeting concluded that N ≈ L, and there were probably between 1000 and 100,000,000 civilizations in the Milky Way galaxy." (in just our own galaxy, mind you... you do the math)...

Also says: "The figure for the universe implies that it is highly unlikely that Earth hosts the only intelligent life that has ever occurred. The figure for our galaxy suggests that other civilizations may have (already) occurred or will likely occur in our galaxy.[62][63][64][65][66]...

The Fermi paradox, is also mentioned, which adds to this: "The pessimists' most telling argument in the SETI debate stems not from theory or conjecture but from an actual observation: the presumed lack of extraterrestrial contact.[6] A civilization lasting for tens of millions of years would have plenty of time to travel anywhere in the galaxy, even at the slow speeds foreseeable with our own kind of technology. Furthermore, no confirmed signs of intelligence elsewhere have been recognized as such, either in our galaxy or in the observable universe of 2 trillion galaxies.[70][71]According to this line of thinking, the tendency to fill up all available territory seems to be a universal trait of living things, so the Earth should have already been colonized, or at least visited, but no evidence of this exists. Hence Fermi's question "Where is everybody?".[72][73]


I suggest that their is either a no contact rule, like a prime directive from more advanced life, or they've evolved into a kind of existence that allows them to have contact with us (and go anywhere not needing matter or material as we know it) completely undetected by us...

Like it or not, however life began, we are evolving now, socially, technologically... And we have to consider that a civilization before us, has done all of this already, and is now, "beyond" what we know perhaps... If life is not as rare as we have atypically thought, this is almost a certainty matematically speaking...

I support the simulation theory... That all "this" is part of biological matter or material kind of computer programmed simulation, created and governed by a race "beyond" it...

God Bless!

I think if a man stays within the confines of the written word of God and not given to vain imaginations , he'll see more of God and his answers will fit together .. PT Barnum said there was a sucker born every minute, you decide what you believe ..

 

[4x4toy]

That guy hasn't the slightest clue what the Second Law actually says, much less what it actually means.

Here, you have the floor ..

 

[Tomm]

Take a really simple one: the claim that any probability less than 1/10^50 is so small that an event with that probability will never occur. If you pick up a deck of 52 cards and shuffle it, the probability that you'll get any particular arrangement of cards is well over a quadrillion times smaller than that number -- and yet such an event happens every time you shuffle a deck.

It's a wrong argument.

Each of those arrangements will still happen according to its respective probability, especially when considered in the long run.

 

[Neogaia777]

I think if a man stays within the confines of the written word of God and not given to vain imaginations , he'll see more of God and his answers will fit together .. PT Barnum said there was a sucker born every minute, you decide what you believe ..

It's not vain imaginations, it's facts and numbers...

You mean stay with the confines of man's traditions and traditional ways of thinking, not the confines of God's word, which I do stay within, thank you very much...

I do not place limits on God like you do...

See this thread if you dare: The Drake equation... More than likely a race that is beyond this dimension we know...

God Bless!

 

[Anguspure]

But: functional coherence is easy to generate through natural selection. Stephen Schaffner 2017

At a very limited level, that bears very little resemblance to the functional coherence observed in this sentence alone. Steven Schaffner is right but he compares apples with things that look like oranges but are more akin to tennis balls.

 

[Tomm]

It's a wrong argument.

Each of those arrangements will still happen according to its respective probability, especially when considered in the long run.

Say suppose you want each arrangement to be 5 cards, the possible no. of arrangements is 52! / (52 - 5)! = 311,875,200
So the probability of each arrangement will be 1/311875200.

Will each arrangement occur very frequently ? No, each will occur only once every 311875200 trials on average, in the long run, believe me. Not more than that, for most of them.

 

[Neogaia777]

Without God, 0% probability ..

What is "God"...? He is a lifeform, right...? An entity of unimaginable proportions, but that we are created in the image and likeness of right...? An entity/lifeform of almost and perhaps unimaginable proportions, that is like us in ways, and we are like it/him/them in ways also... In that we have a mind, heart, will, and emotions, perhaps...

God Bless!

 

[scottyp588]

Think of the complexity of creatures, especially humans and the human mind, wow, it's unthinkable how could chance gave rise to everything.

Not at all. Look how illogical the human body was formed. We are not efficient at all and if this is fined tuned I would hate to see an "untuned" version of this.
We eat and breath with the same tube. Probability of people choking because of this is fairly high.
We use our sewer systems for sex/pleasure.
Just some examples of non-intelligent design.

 

[Neogaia777]

Say suppose you want each arrangement to be 5 cards, the possible no. of arrangements is 52! / (52 - 5)! = 311,875,200
So the probability of each arrangement will be 1/311875200.

Will each arrangement occur very frequently ? No, each will occur only once every 311875200 trials, believe me.

Even if the possibilities seem to be near impossible, they are only near it, and considering the possibilities of the "entire universe" and the sheer numbers, next to impossible is not actually impossible and means, compared to the universe, will happen sometimes, and many times even, unless the possibilities were actually absolute zero... Which I don't think anything is...

God Bless!

 

[scottyp588]

I think a lot of people that don't understand evolution usually don't have a true concept of how long it takes for something to evolve. It is a very slow and long process. It's not like "oh look at this monkey! Before he dies he magically and slowly changes into a human! Wow. That's evolution folks!"
It doesn't happen like that. Billions of years is a crazy long time.

 

[Anguspure]

But: functional coherence is easy to generate through natural selection. Stephen Schaffner 2017

Come to think of it, I just realised (while in the shower) that in my previous post I was being far to generous. Stephen Schaffner is absolutely wrong and I was wrong about his comparison.

The functional coherence observed in invention has absolutely nothing to do with natural selection. This is because natural selection is an observation of a law of nature that acts in already existing populations of living things.

Natural selection does not, and cannot, invent anything.

 

[Neogaia777]

I think a lot of people that don't understand evolution usually don't have a true concept of how long it takes for something to evolve. It is a very slow and long process. It's not like "oh look at this monkey! Before he dies he magically and slowly changes into a human! Wow. That's evolution folks!"
It doesn't happen like that. Billions of years is a crazy long time.

What about technological and perhaps social evolution...? That seems to happen relatively fast...

 

[thesunisout]

Probability is a compelling argument, because there isn't enough time even if you believe in an old earth to generate life. But, the problem isn't whether the argument is compelling. A compelling argument can easily be ignored.

I think the problem here is two fold. Most Christians opposed to evolution do not realize that the theory of evolution is partly true. There is a micro-evolution that takes places that leads to diversity within a kind. For instance, look at all of the different kinds of dogs, and their close relatives. Some animals can also breed with other animals within their kind, like a horse and a donkey. That creates a different type of animal, but it never leaps from one kind to another. Cat to dog for instance.

Believers in evolution make a leap of faith from micro to macro, which is what Darwin did before they had any fossil evidence. His assumption was that macro was taking place because we can observe micro, and he expected the fossils would make his case.

Today, we have looked through the fossil record and found this not to be the case. So much so that scientists have postulated a theory called punctuated equilibrium which attempts to save macro evolution by saying that transitions happened rapidly and that is why there is no fossil evidence.

The second problem is that the atheists and other believers of evolution see that micro evolution is true and proven, and therefore they think they are justified in their leap of faith. They see the Christian ignorantly arguing against the entire concept of evolution and know that micro evolution is scientifically proven so they dismiss their arguments.

The theory of evolution is a pernicious theory for Christians to tackle because life follows some evolutionary principles. We see that not only in the animal order, but also in aspects of human life. Things and ideas evolve over time into more complex forms. This doesn't mean macro evolution is true, it is not proof for macro evolution. For the atheist it is a small leap to make because they assume there is no God to create the different kinds; they had to get there somehow and evolution is the best theory they have.

For Christians who believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, for some it is that they have been persuaded by the scientific arguments and honestly don't know the difference. Others may be in rebellion against Gods word and see this as a good reason to throw out the literal truths of the scripture. After all, they think if we can't trust Genesis then how can we trust much of what the bible says. Some try to compromise the bible to support evolution, like Genesis 1 and 2 had long ages..there are some problems with that theory though. For instance, the plants came on the 3rd day, the Sun on the 4th. If those are long ages those plants would be long dead. There is a certainly lot of deception working in this area today.

I think it just comes down to whether you love the truth or not. If you don't, you will be deceived. If you compromise as a Christian, what you believe will be compromised with lies. If you're not honest with God you will believe deceiving ideas. The only cure for this is Jesus Christ, because He is the way, the truth and the life.