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Math Logic Disproves Evoution

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no1nose

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Hard physical evidence demonstrates that reality is nonlinear (c squared, r squared etc) and discontinuous (quantum). However the human mind is not capable of rational nonlinear and discontinuous thought. Instead we think sequentially and in a linear straight line (A is followed by B which is followed by C etc). The Theory of Evolution portrays a linear and sequential natural world and is most likely in just another limited human construct and not a accurate representation of the ultimate reality of nature
 

no1nose

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Revelation is the only way we can see what is real. The Bible is the prime example of revealed truth. We are living in darkness.

The Theory of Evolution is something that exists in our minds. It is how some people interpret observations made of the natural world. The question for me is whether our minds can make sense of the real world without making fundamental flaws in its interpretations. And which case Evolution, like all human world views, will fall short of explaining the world around us.

Are our minds capable of interpreting observations of the real world correctly? The answer to this is no. Our minds function at least one level below the real world. We think sequentially and in a linear straight line from one observation to the next whereas the real world is both linear and nonlinear and at time discontinuous.

Quantum mechanics shows us that nature is discontinuous. An electron can exist around an atom only in certain places and the space between these places is forever empty. In space electrons pop in and out of existence from seemingly nowhere. Evolution predicts a smooth sequential and continuous transition of life. But the fossil record does not match this prediction. Instead our record of the natural world is discontinuous and at time non sequential and at times non linear. The natural conclusion to this is that the Theory of Evolution is a product of our minds and does not define the natural world with any great accuracy.

The point is that our minds are incapable of mirroring the real world. The information we take in through our senses and from experience is simplified into a continuous sequential and linear thought form that are built up into world views. In the past history has shown us that these world views have always proven to be false. And without a doubt evolution with also fail.

Simply put experience tends to reinforce our prejudices. And this leads us away from the truth. The only way to get in touch with reality is through revelation. Revelation blows us out of the rut that we are in and gets us in touch with what is real.
 
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shernren

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Quantum mechanics shows us that nature is discontinuous. An electron can exist around an atom only in certain places and the space between these places is forever empty. In space electrons pop in and out of existence from seemingly nowhere.

Natch, that would be the Bohr model, which in fact is experimentally invalid. In fact, when you use the Schroedinger equation to analyze the hydrogen atom (or any equivalent hydrogen-like model of the atom), there are an infinite number of possible states which have no nodes - i.e. the electron can truly be anywhere in the universe (although with a vanishingly small probability outside the "confines" of the atom), in continuous fashion.

By the way (and this is one of my massive gripes with non-mathematicians who try to use mathematical language without giving squat about what it actually means) "discontinuous" is not equal to "nonlinear". Plenty of nonlinear functions are continuous.

Mathematical excursion:

Linearity is roughly "additivity": loosely speaking, a linear function (or functional, or space, or whatever) is one for which it doesn't make a difference whether you add things together before you throw them into the mathematical machinery, or after. The temperature scale between inches and centimeters is a good example of a linear scale. Suppose I have a 3-inch-long stick and an 8-inch-long stick (curses on you Americans!). I add them together, and then convert to centimeters: an 11-inch-long stick is 28cm. Now let's convert to centimeters, and then add them together: 3 inches is 7.7cm, and 8 inches is 20.3cm, and so the total length is 28cm. It doesn't make a difference whether I add before converting or after: the conversion is linear.

In contrast, a good example of a nonlinear scale is the decibel system. A typical person talks at a volume of 50dB; a jackhammer blasting 1m away drills at 100dB. Egads! Does that mean that two people talking at me at the same time have the same loudness as a jackhammer? (Joke punchline: Depends on the person.) In reality, the decibel scale is a logarithmic scale, and thus 50dB worth of sound + 50dB worth of sound is not 100dB worth of sound. It makes a difference whether I add sound together before measuring their decibel strength, or whether I measure two sounds' decibel strengths and then "add" them together.

Continuity and discontinuity, by contrast, have to do with whether you can draw a "smooth graph" of a function. Here's a decent example: let's say I had $100 in my bank account, and make a deposit of $100 more. My account balance is discontinuous: it was $100 yesterday, and now it is $200, but you can't find a time when it was, say, $150, or $175, or $120: it's either $100 or $200. (Unfortunately.) But suppose I'm walking away from the ATM when a villain from Acme Inc. suddenly drops a safe from 10m up onto my head. Someone videotapes the whole incident and puts it up on Youtube: so a bored Youtube viewer can find a time when the safe was 5m above me, or 2m, or 3cm, or (in classical theory, and assuming Youtube's resolution increases dramatically between now and then) 1 micrometer above my head: physical quantities are normally continuous.

By now it should be apparent that discontinuity and non-linearity don't go together. For example, let's say I buy a computer which is interest-free until 2010, and with compounding interest after that. My balance on it will be discontinuous and linear until 2010, and discontinuous and nonlinear after that. Meanwhile, both the conversion scales I mentioned above are continuous (you can apply them to arbitrarily small gradations), but the length scale is linear while the sound scale is nonlinear.

-excursion over

Basically, check your math?
 
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shernren

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And plenty of our well-understood mathematical theories are nonlinear and/or discontinuous. The theory of differential equations, for example, uses discontinuous delta functions all the time. Ditto Schroedinger's equation and Einstein's tensor formulation of general relativity, both of which admit far more nonlinear solutions than they do linear solutions. (Which is why we often need computers for them.)

Moral: Mathematical misbehavior is not your enemy ...
 
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juvenissun

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I don't...my thinking is quite 3D and "random".

Exactly. RANDOM thought is what no1nose talking about. You do not present random thoughts to people as a piece of knowledge. And random thought is pretty close to revelation if it is given by God.

So, in other word, you could have wisdom from God, but short of "knowledge" according to people.
 
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juvenissun

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Hard physical evidence demonstrates that reality is nonlinear (c squared, r squared etc) and discontinuous (quantum). However the human mind is not capable of rational nonlinear and discontinuous thought. Instead we think sequentially and in a linear straight line (A is followed by B which is followed by C etc). The Theory of Evolution portrays a linear and sequential natural world and is most likely in just another limited human construct and not a accurate representation of the ultimate reality of nature

Thanks for the idea.

While I feel more solid on the discontinous property of nature, I am struggling with the nonlinear part. Could the nature of nonlinear property be translated to facts that we can reason about?

I came across an interesting article addressed nonlinear logic. I don't understand most part of the electronic application. But the idea of self reference in the logic system seems interesting.

I think God gives us the ability of logic to think. But I am not sure if logic could lead us to God. Nevertheless, the nonlinear logic seems makes us be able to think at a slightly higher level.

God bless.
 
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Mallon

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Revelation is the only way we can see what is real. The Bible is the prime example of revealed truth. We are living in darkness.

The Theory of Evolution is something that exists in our minds. It is how some people interpret observations made of the natural world. The question for me is whether our minds can make sense of the real world without making fundamental flaws in its interpretations. And which case Evolution, like all human world views, will fall short of explaining the world around us.


Do you not also recognize the fact that we must use our minds to interpret the Bible? Are we not therefore just as likely to misinterpret the Bible as we are the world around us? 99% of biologists agree that the evidence favours an evolutionary interpretation of life. But Christians are all over the board when it comes to interpreting the Bible. I think we're much closer to understanding the history of life than we are the Bible. And since it's math that concerns you, I also think the numbers attest to this.
 
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juvenissun

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[/SIZE][/FONT]

Do you not also recognize the fact that we must use our minds to interpret the Bible? Are we not therefore just as likely to misinterpret the Bible as we are the world around us?

If you use human reasoning to interpret the Bible, you will definitely leave the Christianity.
 
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sfs

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Hard physical evidence demonstrates that reality is nonlinear (c squared, r squared etc)
Assuming you mean the c^2 in E = mc^2, that's not nonlinear -- it's a constant. Inverse-square laws are nonlinear, however.

and discontinuous (quantum). However the human mind is not capable of rational nonlinear and discontinuous thought.
This statement makes little sense as it stands. We don't need "rational nonlinear and discontinuous thought" to think about nonlinearity and discontinuity, any more than we need rational green thought to think about frogs. What we need is rational thought about nonlinearity and discontinuity, and that we've already got: it's called physics.

Instead we think sequentially and in a linear straight line (A is followed by B which is followed by C etc). The Theory of Evolution portrays a linear and sequential natural world and is most likely in just another limited human construct and not a accurate representation of the ultimate reality of nature

The theory of evolution is certainly "just" another limited human construct, as are all human models of reality (including theological and philosophical models). It is undoubtedly not a perfectly accurate representation of the reality. (What's ultimate reality, by the way, and how does it differ from any other kind of reality?) That fact has little to do with nonlinearity and almost nothing to do with discontinuity, however. Quantum mechanics tells us that the physical world is discontinuous and also tells us that the discontinuity makes almost no difference to the behaviors relevant to evolution. Continuous descriptions of matter are very, very good approximations to QM for purposes of biology. If you believe QM about discontinuity, you might as well believe it about how unimportant discontinuity is to evolution.

The situation with nonlinearity is a little more complicated, but the bottom line is that evolutionary biology relies very little on linear models in its conclusions. The details are unimportant to the argument, since the argument is nothing but epistemological nihilism dressed up in a scientific-sounding wrapper.
 
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Melethiel

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Not to mention that when it comes to quantum theory, if you actually look at the mathematics involved, when you get to a macroscopic scale, the quantum behavior is so miniscule that it can be safely ignored in modeling. (And to add what shernren said, the Schroedinger equation, which describes quantum behavior, is actually quite continuous.)
 
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juvenissun

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Not to mention that when it comes to quantum theory, if you actually look at the mathematics involved, when you get to a macroscopic scale, the quantum behavior is so miniscule that it can be safely ignored in modeling. (And to add what shernren said, the Schroedinger equation, which describes quantum behavior, is actually quite continuous.)

sfs said:
The situation with nonlinearity is a little more complicated, but the bottom line is that evolutionary biology relies very little on linear models in its conclusions. The details are unimportant to the argument, since the argument is nothing but epistemological nihilism dressed up in a scientific-sounding wrapper.

Both above are examples of linear thinking.
 
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no1nose

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My motivation for writing this post is not to change your minds but to give you something to think about and to test my beliefs in an open forum. Steel sharpens steel as it is written so thanks to you who care and are willing to make the effort to fight for what you think is right.

I am still very much convinced that Evolution is simply an idea in some people’s minds and not the reality of the natural world. It is no coincidence that it parallels Christianity so closely - this was where Darwin stole most of “his” ideas.

Both Evolution and Christianity are about the transformation of one species into another. For Christianity it is the creation of the new man. Darwin’s scenario begins with one member being different at birth. This follows Christianity as Jesus was different – being conceived by the Holy Spirit. In Evolution this “mutation” gives the individual an advantage in survival. Having been raised from the dead proves that Jesus was a survivor. Finally in evolution the member of a species are not like this new individual becomes “extinct”. This too follows the Christianity in that those who do not accept Jesus are lost. Please note that none of these ideas are self evident in the natural world. They are read into Evolution by Darwin’s preconceived ideas.

Even if I am completely wrong - evolution itself points to Jesus as mankind’s savior. We can easily see this by asking the question “from an evolutionary point of view who will transform and “save” mankind?”

If everyone became like Jesus there would be no hunger because he was able to feed people. Neither would be there be sickness, war or death. The same can not be said for Buddha, Mohamed, or Moses or anyone else one can think of. So even from an evolutionary point of view Jesus is the one.

The point is that our minds are incapable of mirroring the real world. The information we take in through our senses and from experience is simplified into a continuous sequential and linear thought form that are built up into world views. In the past history has shown us that these world views have always proven to false. And without a doubt evolution with also fail.

Simply put experience tends to reinforce our prejudices. And this leads us away from the truth. The only way to get in touch with reality is through revelation. Revelation blows us out of the rut that we are in and gets us in touch with what is real. In regard then to evolution my point is that it is an observational and experimental framework built on the foundation of Biblical revelation. As such it is not be trusted or “believed” in
 
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Mallon

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Time will tell whether evolution (or any other scientific theory) fails or not. But the fact remains that it is the best explanation we have of the data right now. And unless some other explanation comes along that can do a better job of explaining the data, we're stuck with what we've got.
 
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Melethiel

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My motivation for writing this post is not to change your minds but to give you something to think about and to test my beliefs in an open forum. Steel sharpens steel as it is written so thanks to you who care and are willing to make the effort to fight for what you think is right.

I am still very much convinced that Evolution is simply an idea in some people’s minds and not the reality of the natural world. It is no coincidence that it parallels Christianity so closely - this was where Darwin stole most of “his” ideas.

Both Evolution and Christianity are about the transformation of one species into another. For Christianity it is the creation of the new man. Darwin’s scenario begins with one member being different at birth. This follows Christianity as Jesus was different – being conceived by the Holy Spirit. In Evolution this “mutation” gives the individual an advantage in survival. Having been raised from the dead proves that Jesus was a survivor. Finally in evolution the member of a species are not like this new individual becomes “extinct”. This too follows the Christianity in that those who do not accept Jesus are lost. Please note that none of these ideas are self evident in the natural world. They are read into Evolution by Darwin’s preconceived ideas.

Even if I am completely wrong - evolution itself points to Jesus as mankind’s savior. We can easily see this by asking the question “from an evolutionary point of view who will transform and “save” mankind?”

If everyone became like Jesus there would be no hunger because he was able to feed people. Neither would be there be sickness, war or death. The same can not be said for Buddha, Mohamed, or Moses or anyone else one can think of. So even from an evolutionary point of view Jesus is the one.

The point is that our minds are incapable of mirroring the real world. The information we take in through our senses and from experience is simplified into a continuous sequential and linear thought form that are built up into world views. In the past history has shown us that these world views have always proven to false. And without a doubt evolution with also fail.

Simply put experience tends to reinforce our prejudices. And this leads us away from the truth. The only way to get in touch with reality is through revelation. Revelation blows us out of the rut that we are in and gets us in touch with what is real. In regard then to evolution my point is that it is an observational and experimental framework built on the foundation of Biblical revelation. As such it is not be trusted or “believed” in
Um...what? Go pick up a biology textbook (preferably at the college level) and read up on evolution. Please. Otherwise it makes you look like you have no clue what you are talking about.
 
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lemmings

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I think Darwin and others pick up their ideas from the culture they lived in -why not?

The only cultural influence that Darwin may have had on his decision to publish his findings was the knowledge that he would not be executed or imprisoned for heresy, unlike other great thinkers during the Dark Ages. The idea of evolution and most of the tenets has been invented by Greek philosophers between the 3rd and 5th centauries BC.
 
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