Mass beheading of Coptic Christians in Libya

[sea oat]

You know, it's sad for me to admit that I don't know very many Christians like you who would say such a thing about Muslims or about other people of different religions. It has been my personal experience over the years that Christians like you are very few and far between. It seems like when I'm willing to walk away from Christianity for good, I come across someone like you, a person who actually mirrors Christ and His commands in his own words, thought, and deed. You restore my confidence in my own faith and my willingness to continue to follow Christ, even when it's very difficult for me to do so.

I am sorry you are struggling with Christianity, but please. This topic is not about you. 21 people are dead. Can we get back on topic?





Father in Heaven, you make your sun shine
on good and bad alike.
Your Son Jesus Christ died for us all
and in his glorious Resurrection
He still retains the five wounds of his Passion.
With his divine power he now sustains
all those who suffer persecution and martyrdom
for the sake of their fidelity
to the faith of the Church.
Merciful and mighty Father,
do not allow Cain to return again to murder
helpless Abel, innocent Abel.
May persecuted Christians around the world
remain, like Mary, their Mother,
together at the foot of the cross
of Christ the Martyr.
Comfort those menaced by violence
and those oppressed by uncertainty.
May your Holy Spirit of love
make fruitful the witness and the blood
of those who die forgiving.

Amen.

Prayers for Persecuted Christians | Quidnunc

 

[football5680]

I don't know, I just recall certain Scriptures about being judged by the same measure you judge others and about judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. And I'm sorry, but what I have read you say so far hasn't sounded very merciful at all.

Eradicating ISIS is a mercy for mankind because they are bad for everybody. If certain individuals in ISIS would repent then I would be open to showing those members mercy, but if they don't then they deserve death. God will not show mercy to the unrepentant so I will judge by that standard.

 

[MikeK]

So criticizing evil, demonic Muslims that behead Christians is worse to you than beheading the Christians?

I don't think anyone thinks that these acts shouldn't be heavily criticized, it is the hope that other human beings are tortured for eternity due to their crimes in this life that is distasteful.

 

[Antigone]

That's just horrible. My prayers for the victims, their families, and somewhat begrudgingly, the perpetrators.

Because I don't believe you get from perfectly normal human being to cutting off the heads of innocents if your life has been fine and dandy.

 

[MikeK]

Because I don't believe you get from perfectly normal human being to cutting off the heads of innocents if your life has been fine and dandy.

I don't either. On the other hand, there is another thread right now in OBOB where several Cathoilic posters are stating that it can be okay to execute heretics, even by burning them alive. I don't know their individual backgrounds, but I wonder if they ever stopped to consider the paralells involved and that their argument boils down to "but they're wrong about God and we're right!" An eye for an eye and the whole world will be blind.

 

[Red Fox]

I don't think anyone thinks that these acts shouldn't be heavily criticized, it is the hope that other human beings are tortured for eternity due to their crimes in this life that is distasteful.

I agree, it is very distasteful, not to mention unChristlike.

 

[Red Fox]

I am sorry you are struggling with Christianity, but please. This topic is not about you. 21 people are dead. Can we get back on topic?

Well excuse me. I didn't realize I wasn't allowed to comment on a Christian who is actually behaving like a Christian and not calling for the death and eternal damnation of Muslims. I won't remember that next time, because it's so rare, it deserves to be commended when it happens.

 

[brewmama]

I don't think anyone thinks that these acts shouldn't be heavily criticized, it is the hope that other human beings are tortured for eternity due to their crimes in this life that is distasteful.

Well, perhaps, but I haven't noticed any criticism from that person except toward Christians, and also an untruth that wanting those murderers punished eternally means wanting all Muslims punished eternally.

 

[billvelek]

I hope they are all forgiven their sins and brought to eternal rest with our Lord.

Amen, brother. I pray for my enemies everyday: that God will forgive them and show mercy upon them, and bring them to Heaven, and also that they will see the error of their ways and repent. Of course, I also pray for their victims. But back to the terrorists and other really evil people -- I have always believed that repentance, or at least sorrow, is necessary for the forgiveness of sins, but once again that is up to Almighty God. But those terrorists also have another strike against them; they are not Christian, nor are they living like Christians, so if the Bible is truly the Word of God, I don't think there is much hope for them unless and until they find Jesus. But despite what seems like a hopeless situation for them, I still pray for them.

Your brother in Christ,

Bill Velek

 

[sea oat]

Well excuse me. I didn't realize I wasn't allowed to comment on a Christian who is actually behaving like a Christian and not calling for the death and eternal damnation of Muslims. I won't remember that next time, because it's so rare, it deserves to be commended when it happens.

No. It wasn't a comment. I went into a thread that was supposed to be about the brutal beheading of 21 people, and had to skip through an entire page full of a derailment thanks to multiple anecdotes about your own life, and your experiences with your friends, and Christians.

Seriously, do you think this is the time or place? Do you think there might be something bigger going on in the world other than your own 1st world struggles? Welcome to my ignore list.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

Apparently not, except for the America part, that is true. Otherwise, I have quite a few Christian friends, however, the majority of them are minorities, even fewer who aren't (sorry about the play on words). And that reality is based on almost 25 years of personal experience since I first converted to Christianity.

So you show no outrage at the beheading of 21 coptic brothers?
Look,I understand the ideal of love your enemies, but at least feign your human, in your heart, and admit you want to inflict bad things on these people.
That is the humanity of it. Then when we can be honest about our feelings, then we can ask to forgive.

But I am not buying the phoney baloney crap.

 

[mark46]

Of course, there is outrage at the torturing of 21 Christians.

ISIS has now gone out of its way to outrage the Jordanian and now the Egyptian people. Egypt has recently allowed the building of new Christian churches (not allowed under Mubarack). The government and the Egyptian people are united in their outrage against ISIS.

May the martyrdom of the 21 help the world to understand the danger of ISIS and help all of the countries of the Middle East to work together to destroy this organization.

 

[sea oat]

May the martyrdom of the 21 help the world to understand the danger of ISIS and help all of the countries of the Middle East to work together to destroy this this organization.

Amen

 

[billvelek]

I don't think anyone thinks that these acts shouldn't be heavily criticized, it is the hope that other human beings are tortured for eternity due to their crimes in this life that is distasteful. (Bold emphasis mine.)

You show your true colors as a liberal; those words -- "heavily criticized" -- could have come right out of the mouth of Obama to express his sentiments exactly -- that the Islamic terrorists (though he wouldn't call them THAT) should be "criticized" (and he might not even use the word "heavily"). Why wouldn't you choose to use stronger words more appropriate for such evil -- even for the purpose of drawing the distinction that you were making here. Why not use a word such as "condemn" (and I don't mean 'to Hell', because in your own words you were referring to the "acts" that were committed rather than the perpetrators)? Surely it is fair and Christ-like to "condemn" terrorist ACTS, and not merely to just "criticize" them as if they are only partially flawed. Alas, such a difference in mindset between liberals and conservatives will never go away, whether it is in politics, religion, sociology (like whether to spank our kids), or whatever; there seems to be a fundamental difference in the way our brains work. <sigh>

But I do get your point regardless of the semantics: that it was their expression of HOPE for their eternal damnation rather than for their repentance and salvation. But I think that that is merely YOUR perception of what they were actually expressing ... and that you therefore jumped to conclusions, and have been too quick to judge and therefore have judged unfairly (which is a pretty good reason in itself to not judge others). I have just re-read the entire thread to be absolutely certain that no one had explicitly expressed an actual preference that these terrorists burn in hell instead of repenting; in fact, those whom you have criticized were more than likely merely expressing the hope that those monsters will receive their just deserts. And although they did not, at the same time, express hope for the repentance and salvation of the terrorists, their simple silence in that respect does not mean, nor does it justify your presumption, that they place any greater hope in the damnation of those souls than in their salvation. Thus I said you were too quick to judge.

Here are what I feel were the most relevant posts regarding that issue; I can't find any expression that anyone hopes the terrorists are never forgiven:

Hopefully all these people are killed and thrown into the lake of fire for eternity alongside their false prophet.

I hope they are all forgiven their sins and brought to eternal rest with our Lord.

Unfortunately for them, they will have had to have repented, but something tells me 99+% haven't and won't. And for the ones that won't, burn.

This would be nice but I'm a realist. The odds [my bold emphasis] say that they are too ignorant and deluded to seek the truth and they will die as disbelievers.

Wow. Hopefully you won't be judged by the same standard.

During this blast of cold weather, I've been thinking of last summer ...

Your brother in Christ,

Bill Velek

 

[MikeK]

You show your true colors as a liberal; those words -- "heavily criticized" -- could have come right out of the mouth of Obama to express his sentiments exactly -- that the Islamic terrorists (though he wouldn't call them THAT) should be "criticized" (and he might not even use the word "heavily"). Why wouldn't you choose to use stronger words more appropriate for such evil -- even for the purpose of drawing the distinction that you were making here. Why not use a word such as "condemn" (and I don't mean 'to Hell', because in your own words you were referring to the "acts" that were committed rather than the perpetrators)? Surely it is fair and Christ-like to "condemn" terrorist ACTS, and not merely to just "criticize" them as if they are only partially flawed. Alas, such a difference in mindset between liberals and conservatives will never go away, whether it is in politics, religion, sociology (like whether to spank our kids), or whatever; there seems to be a fundamental difference in the way our brains work. <sigh>

But I do get your point regardless of the semantics: that it was their expression of HOPE for their eternal damnation rather than for their repentance and salvation. But I think that that is merely YOUR perception of what they were actually expressing ... and that you therefore jumped to conclusions, and have been too quick to judge and therefore have judged unfairly (which is a pretty good reason in itself to not judge others). I have just re-read the entire thread to be absolutely certain that no one had explicitly expressed an actual preference that these terrorists burn in hell instead of repenting; in fact, those whom you have criticized were more than likely merely expressing the hope that those monsters will receive their just deserts. And although they did not, at the same time, express hope for the repentance and salvation of the terrorists, their simple silence in that respect does not mean, nor does it justify your presumption, that they place any greater hope in the damnation of those souls than in their salvation. Thus I said you were too quick to judge.

Here are what I feel were the most relevant posts regarding that issue; I can't find any expression that anyone hopes the terrorists are never forgiven:

During this blast of cold weather, I've been thinking of last summer ...

Your brother in Christ,

Bill Velek

You are wrong to label me a liberal, you are wrong to say that that this:

"Hopefully all these people are killed and thrown into the lake of fire for eternity alongside their false prophet."

is anything but directly expressing the hope that that these souls be damned to hell. Maybe he doesn't feel that way, but that statement can really only be taken one way.

 

[billvelek]

I don't think anyone thinks that these acts shouldn't be heavily criticized, it is the hope that other human beings are tortured for eternity due to their crimes in this life that is distasteful. (Bold emphasis mine.)

You show your true colors as a liberal; those words -- "heavily criticized" -- could have come right out of the mouth of Obama to express his sentiments exactly -- that the Islamic terrorists (though he wouldn't call them THAT) should be "criticized" (and he might not even use the word "heavily"). Why wouldn't you choose to use stronger words more appropriate for such evil -- even for the purpose of drawing the distinction that you were making here. Why not use a word such as "condemn" (and I don't mean 'to Hell', because in your own words you were referring to the "acts" that were committed rather than the perpetrators)? Surely it is fair and Christ-like to "condemn" terrorist ACTS, and not merely to just "criticize" them as if they are only partially flawed. Alas, such a difference in mindset between liberals and conservatives will never go away, whether it is in politics, religion, sociology (like whether to spank our kids), or whatever; there seems to be a fundamental difference in the way our brains work. <sigh>

But I do get your point regardless of the semantics: that it was their expression of HOPE for their eternal damnation rather than for their repentance and salvation. But I think that that is merely YOUR perception of what they were actually expressing ... and that you therefore jumped to conclusions, and have been too quick to judge and therefore have judged unfairly (which is a pretty good reason in itself to not judge others). I have just re-read the entire thread to be absolutely certain that no one had explicitly expressed an actual preference that these terrorists burn in hell instead of repenting; in fact, those whom you have criticized were more than likely merely expressing the hope that those monsters will receive their just deserts. And although they did not, at the same time, express hope for the repentance and salvation of the terrorists, their simple silence in that respect does not mean, nor does it justify your presumption, that they place any greater hope in the damnation of those souls than in their salvation. Thus I said you were too quick to judge.

Here are what I feel were the most relevant posts regarding that issue; I can't find any expression that anyone hopes the terrorists are never forgiven:

Hopefully all these people are killed and thrown into the lake of fire for eternity alongside their false prophet.

I hope they are all forgiven their sins and brought to eternal rest with our Lord.

Unfortunately for them, they will have had to have repented, but something tells me 99+% haven't and won't. And for the ones that won't, burn.

This would be nice but I'm a realist. The odds [my bold emphasis] say that they are too ignorant and deluded to seek the truth and they will die as disbelievers.

Wow. Hopefully you won't be judged by the same standard.

During this blast of cold weather, I've been thinking of last summer ...

Your brother in Christ,

Bill Velek

 

[billvelek]

Sorry for the double post (#34 and #36). I don't know about anyone else, but I have had an almost constant difficulty over the past several days of even reading posts, let alone posting replies as well. I keep getting an error message that indicates that the gateway for Christian Forums is not functioning correctly, and it is apparently true because I have absolutely no problem surfing all over the place. I hope it is fixed soon. The frustration has been so bad that I have been tempted to quit checking possible access altogether. Hopefully, the admins at Christian Forums are aware of the problem and can get it fixed.

Your brother in Christ,

Bill Velek

 

[billvelek]

You are wrong to label me a liberal, you are wrong to say that that this:

"Hopefully all these people are killed and thrown into the lake of fire for eternity alongside their false prophet."

is anything but directly expressing the hope that that these souls be damned to hell. Maybe he doesn't feel that way, but that statement can really only be taken one way.

I'm sorry I called you a liberal, but as I saw it at the moment, you seemed to be acting like one. I haven't been around long enough to necessarily know the normal character of more than just a few of the folks here. I'm sorry; please forgive me.

As for the quote, I will concede that it does say what you have suggested, but since it does not expressly state that he hopes that none of them repent, I am giving him the benefit of the doubt that -- as you put it -- "Maybe he doesn't fee that way ...". My interpretation was that he meant this:

"Hopefully all these people are killed ... [IF THEY DON'T REPENT] ... and thrown into the lake of fire for eternity alongside their false prophet." Now, if he had expressly stated it that way, then I would wholeheartedly agree with the bold portion from the point of view of their defeat and elimination of the evil they are committing, but with respect to the second part (NOT bold), I don't find anything wrong with hoping for (looking forward to) divine justice awaiting us all in the end, although I personally try not to be gleeful about the vengeance of God. If I'm lucky enough to make it into Heaven, and lucky enough for my loved ones to also make it to Heaven, then I'm not sure that I should, nor that I will in the hereafter, have any concerns about the rest of humanity. I mean, when we are in Heaven worshiping and adoring God, as we should, should we also, at the same time, be taking pity upon those whom God has NOT taken pity upon but instead has condemned them to eternal damnation. I would think that such pity would be sort of like disagreeing with God's decision -- with his mercy and justice. I never want to disagree with God.

Again, sorry for any misjudgments on my part.

Your brother in Christ,

Bill Velek

 

[MikeK]

No worries I hope your connection problems are remedied, I enjoy your often well-though-out contributions.

 

[classicalhero]

I agree, it is very distasteful, not to mention unChristlike.

LOL. Jesus talked more about hell (eternal punishment) than he did on heaven. Jesus warned the consequences of unbelief would be. In fact no more about what the afterlife is like because of Jesus.