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fatboys

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I realize that there are many misrepresentations about Masons. And certainly they not are perfect. But why is there such a campaign against them. I have not know many personally who are Masons, but they seem very much like anyone else. Many of the U.S. leaders have been members of the Masons and it was at one time very prestigous to be a member of the Masons. Why the turn around
 
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americanvet

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Basically people misunderstand and/or misrepresent Masonry add a few old known lies. This makes a "perfect storm" for nay-sayers.

Go to www.masonicinfo.com.

I also suggest reading Freemason for Dummies.
 
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fatboys

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Basically people misunderstand and/or misrepresent Masonry add a few old known lies. This makes a "perfect storm" for nay-sayers.

Go to www.masonicinfo.com.

I also suggest reading Freemason for Dummies.

Thanks I will. I did notice in another thread that there are those who hate Masons. It is not a religion. I don't understand.
 
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Albion

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Thanks I will. I did notice in another thread that there are those who hate Masons. It is not a religion. I don't understand.

You've asked a reasonable question. Here are a few thought I have on that subject.

1. It's the world's largest and oldest such fraternity. For that reason alone, it's going to attract the most attention.

2. It has produced an amazing number of government leaders --from America's founding fathers to the liberators of a number of other nations. This is fodder for any political conspiracy theorist.

3. It is not a drinking society or a strictly recreational club like so many others. Freemasonry is concerned with high idealism, social service, and charitable works.

4. It has been the special target of the Roman Catholic Church because of Masonry's support for democratic government and national independence. These forces in society, although not aimed specifically at the Church, did undermine the Papacy's historic ability to "make and break" kings. As a result, the members of the world largest church are forbidden by their own church to become Masons, although Masonry welcomes them just as it does the members of any other denomination.
 
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timewerx

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Here's some conflicts with Christianity against Freemasonry:

1. Use of Eye of Providence symbol conflicts with:

Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

2. Swearing which conflicts with:

Matthew 5:33-37
Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ 34 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.[g]

3. Membership with freemasonry is redundant (useless) against doing God's Will.

Someone may justify you can take advantage of freemasonry's network to reach out to more people... But can you preach points #1 and #2, even tell people to get out of it without getting kicked out? No you can't. You won't be able to preach the whole Truth in freemasonry while inside it therefore useless.

Psalm 101:3 ESV
I will not set before my eyes anything that is worthless. I hate the work of those who fall away; it shall not cling to me.
 
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americanvet

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Thought I answered the swearing thing pretty good with Scripture and references in the thoughts of Freemasonry thread. There are no "graven images" in Masonry. The redundant thought is your opinion.
 
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timewerx

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Thought I answered the swearing thing pretty good with Scripture and references in the thoughts of Freemasonry thread. There are no "graven images" in Masonry. The redundant thought is your opinion.

No graven images?

I'm going to lexicon now, the original Hebrew word for "graven images" or "idol" as referred to in Exodus 20:4 is:

פֶ֣֙סֶל֙

which stands for idol/image or can also mean carved (graven - KJV Lexicon) see link:

Exodus 20:4 Bible Lexicon

Do you then deny all these carved/"graven" images that resemble creatures (plants and animals) done in the name of freemasonry?

Museum Table of Contents

Honestly, how far will you keep denying these conflicts when it's all laid out in front of you? You got no place to go but rant somewhere else where there are no Christians who actually know their stuff. There's no way the case of freemasons will win in forums like these.

Where does your sentiments really lie? To defend your brotherhood to the ends of Earth in spite of the Truth?
 
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americanvet

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No graven images?

I'm going to lexicon now, the original Hebrew word for "graven images" or "idol" as referred to in Exodus 20:4 is:

פֶ֣֙סֶל֙

which stands for idol/image or can also mean carved (graven - KJV Lexicon) see link:

Exodus 20:4 Bible Lexicon

Do you then deny all these carved/"graven" images that resemble creatures (plants and animals) done in the name of freemasonry?

Museum Table of Contents

Honestly, how far will you keep denying these conflicts when it's all laid out in front of you? You got no place to go but rant somewhere else where there are no Christians who actually know their stuff. There's no way the case of freemasons will win in forums like these.

Where does your sentiments really lie? To defend your brotherhood to the ends of Earth in spite of the Truth?[/quote

There are no graven images in Masonry. I am a Christian who loves the Savior Christ. Now just because I don't meet your particular idea of what a Christian should be does not give you the right to question my faith.

You have openly admitted to not believing the entire Bible. Have I doubted you faith in Christ? No I have not. Why? Because we do not have to agree on every single issue to both be Christians. Because you have a different opinion than me on a particular verse does not mean I am going to condemn you.

You keep talking about truth. Here is the truth I am a Christian and I have answered your question in a manner I think is adequate. Since you think they are not and you continue to question my faith I will no longer reply to you. It seems it is time to agree to disagree.
 
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timewerx

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You keep talking about truth. Here is the truth I am a Christian and I have answered your question in a manner I think is adequate. Since you think they are not and you continue to question my faith I will no longer reply to you. It seems it is time to agree to disagree.

Alright I'll try my best to leave you alone with your decision and in your posts about freemasonry from now on. I'm still hoping one day, some of you will change your mind about freemasonry. Time spent on meditating on God's word day and night is much too valuable to be occupied with something else other than sharing the Truth.
 
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gord44

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Alright I'll try my best to leave you alone with your decision and in your posts about freemasonry from now on. I'm still hoping one day, some of you will change your mind about freemasonry. Time spent on meditating on God's word day and night is much too valuable to be occupied with something else other than sharing the Truth.

Unless your truth isn't the truth. Then you will walk the landscape of untruth, looking to spread untruth and in the process lose yourself. Something to consider.
 
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americanvet

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Alright I'll try my best to leave you alone with your decision and in your posts about freemasonry from now on. I'm still hoping one day, some of you will change your mind about freemasonry. Time spent on meditating on God's word day and night is much too valuable to be occupied with something else other than sharing the Truth.

Thank you.
 
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B

bbbbbbb

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I realize that there are many misrepresentations about Masons. And certainly they are perfect. But why is there such a campaign against them. I have not know many personally who are Masons, but they seem very much like anyone else. Many of the U.S. leaders have been members of the Masons and it was at one time very prestigous to be a member of the Masons. Why the turn around

And certainly they are perfect. ? Are they?
 
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Albion

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Here's some conflicts with Christianity against Freemasonry:

1. Use of Eye of Providence symbol conflicts with

The eye of God is a well-established and historic Christian symbol.

Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
If you are one of the very few Christians who interpret that to be against the commandment, I assume that you carry no currency in your wallet, have no pictures of family members, and find every historic monument in the country to be sinful. If so, Masonry is not for YOU.

Matthew 5:33-37
Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ 34But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.[g]
As you've said, you never took an oath in court, in the military, or on other such occasions, but there aren't many Christian churches that find this to be wrong. As always, no one is saying that anyone should join in defiance of his own church's policies. What you are saying is that no one should join if this conflicts with YOUR personal religious beliefs.

3. Membership with freemasonry is redundant (useless) against doing God's Will.
So is doing anything but sitting in a cave and reading the Bible 24/7. But I don't believe for a minute that you really do this. In fact, you waste a lot of time here and belong to CF, which according to what you've said before, is not God-pleasing.
 
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fatboys

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No graven images?

I'm going to lexicon now, the original Hebrew word for "graven images" or "idol" as referred to in Exodus 20:4 is:

פֶ֣֙סֶל֙

which stands for idol/image or can also mean carved (graven - KJV Lexicon) see link:

Exodus 20:4 Bible Lexicon

Do you then deny all these carved/"graven" images that resemble creatures (plants and animals) done in the name of freemasonry?

Museum Table of Contents

Honestly, how far will you keep denying these conflicts when it's all laid out in front of you? You got no place to go but rant somewhere else where there are no Christians who actually know their stuff. There's no way the case of freemasons will win in forums like these.

Where does your sentiments really lie? To defend your brotherhood to the ends of Earth in spite of the Truth?

In Christianity the sign of the cross or the as many people do use the cross as some sort of power to thwart evil instead of what it really is as a reminder of the sacrifice of the Lord makes the cross seem as a graven image. Having symbols that remind us of events is not worship nor graven image. To many times people get hung up on what they see as wrong when it was not at the time it was introduced. For instance the pentigram was not a sign of evil until the early twentieth century. Times change. Cultures change. You can not place a judgement on how we view things now to what things were and make them the same. I am sure if you believe in the Bible literally that you would not stone someone to death for committing a serious crime.
 
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timewerx

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Unless your truth isn't the truth. Then you will walk the landscape of untruth, looking to spread untruth and in the process lose yourself. Something to consider.

I'm simply following the example of Jesus. Jesus is not the type of person who will follow you around even against your wishes until you agree with Him. He also won't hang around if He is not welcomed in some place. Jesus even let people walk out of His sermons.

Americanvet has made his intentions clear. But it only means I'll leave him alone, but not this topic.

The eye of God is a well-established and historic Christian symbol.

I can't find it in the Bible. All I found is don't make one! (Exodus 20:4)


If you are one of the very few Christians who interpret that to be against the commandment, I assume that you carry no currency in your wallet, have no pictures of family members, and find every historic monument in the country to be sinful. If so, Masonry is not for YOU.
Yes, I do all those but the currency part.

But you see there's a difference between cash and family photos

1. Cash - can fulfill needs - but Jesus say don't esteem it
2. Family photos - cannot fulfill needs unless you can eat paper - Bible says it's idolatry.

1. You can keep cash and not sin as long as you don't esteem it - you don't strive to be richer, you give what you don't need to God's Work and the poor, you don't use it to buy things you don't need or more expensive than what is needed (if a cheap/basic car is enough to get you around the city, why buy a more expensive SUV, luxury sedan or sports car?)

Jesus kept coins too they collected in their ministry with the face of Caesar. But Jesus and His disciples did not esteem them except one - Judas who kept some of the ministry money for himself.

2. However, there is no reason for you to keep family photos since it can't fulfill any need. The only reason left why keep it is you esteem it and it becomes your idol.

As you've said, you never took an oath in court, in the military, or on other such occasions, but there aren't many Christian churches that find this to be wrong. As always, no one is saying that anyone should join in defiance of his own church's policies. What you are saying is that no one should join if this conflicts with YOUR personal religious beliefs.
I agree with that. However, this not due to religious beliefs. I sought the Bible and saw it there. I assume we all use the same Bibles with the 66 books, maybe with slightly different words used but otherwise, similar in interpretations.

I don't easily ascribe to popular beliefs even in local churches regardless of denomination. I've observed many churches compromise the Truth in different levels and seems to have a major effect in the number of members - that is the less Truth you preach, the more members you have!

So is doing anything but sitting in a cave and reading the Bible 24/7. But I don't believe for a minute that you really do this. In fact, you waste a lot of time here and belong to CF, which according to what you've said before, is not God-pleasing.
I don't see reaching out to others with the Truth as waste of time.

century. Times change. Cultures change.

But God stays the same.

Times change indeed, idols are no longer made of wood, gold and silver, carved by chisel. Now it's made of carbon steel, or carbon fiber, aluminum, CNC machined, cast, forged...

Now we can sing acts of fornication, laugh with those who say the Lord's name in vain in TV, party every week or every day, inviting our friends, instead of the poor and strangers. Have infinite number of things to waste money on instead on spending them on God's Work and to the poor...

Now we can make profits off the backs of cheap labor in 3rd world countries. Not only that, we are destroying our environment much more vigorously than it was then.

Now we can cause others to sin on a daily basis by wearing clothes that easily reveal our bodily features and to behave seductively as popularized by mass media.

It's a very long list so I'll stop here

Only way I see it is that times has changed for worse. We have simply created more ways to commit evil and make acts of evil more acceptable and even something to pride on.... Like how many girlfriends have you had last year?? How good can you dance this music which entails sexually-motivated moves?

We are now living in the prophesies then made by Jesus and Paul. It was they that prophesied that things will get worse. People will prefer to hear lies than Truth. The Truth will irritate them.
 
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Albion

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I can't find it in the Bible. All I found is don't make one! (Exodus 20:4)

If you really do mean "Don't MAKE one," you can't fault any Masons who merely witness one.

Yes, I do all those but the currency part.

But you see there's a difference between cash and family photos

1. Cash - can fulfill needs - but Jesus say don't esteem it
2. Family photos - cannot fulfill needs unless you can eat paper - Bible says it's idolatry.
You can squirm, but you're being hypocritical. If images are wrong, you are using them! But yet you fault Masons. There's no credibility there.

And if you say that you only carry pictures and never have touched money which has pictures of presidents (and several Freemaons, I might add) on it, you are either not "fessing up" or else you are trying to get away with an invalid distinction between the images you like and other images. In either case, you are guilty of that which you condemn Masons who, after all, didn't "make" any images.
 
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timewerx

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If you really do mean "Don't MAKE one," you can't fault any Masons who merely witness one...

...Masons who, after all, didn't "make" any images.

Graven images and symbols don't come out of thin air, someone has to make them;)

Someone within masonry thought it out and has done evil according to Exodus 20:4

..However...

...as a member of freemason and a Christian, will you openly and persistently disapprove whoever was behind the making of their graven images and symbols?

If you don't disapprove then you are also in opposition to:

Psalms 26:4-5
I do not sit with the deceitful,
nor do I associate with hypocrites.
5 I abhor the assembly of evildoers
and refuse to sit with the wicked.

You can squirm, but you're being hypocritical. If images are wrong, you are using them! But yet you fault Masons. There's no credibility there.
When will you ever learn to refute like an adult?

I gave you an extensive point by point explanation on my view on money and is based on scriptures. If Jesus did not give value to money, even food, why did He kept a few coins, even ate? Yet he also preached extreme charity and selflessness(self denial) with regards to handling wealth.

How do you explain the actions of Jesus on money? Was there any record that Jesus kept any form of images back then? First of all Jesus no longer had a house to stay permanently when He started His ministry. Very few personal items were mentioned like purse, knife, etc. No other mention of images but the coins His ministry collected. I'm simply following how Jesus lived.

Are you so ignorant of scriptures you can't even use it likewise to refute me?

You're giving a bad name to freemasons and I might actually approve of your behavior^_^
 
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Albion

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Graven images and symbols don't come out of thin air, someone has to make them;)

and yo have no problem with that in your own life, just in that of Masons. I don't see the logic there. You have images but you excuse yourself; however, when it comes to Masons, it doesn't matter if they don'tmake them and don't venerate them. All that matters is that they are there. But in your own life, another standard governs...or so you've convinced yourself.

Someone within masonry thought it out and has done evil according to Exodus 20:4
No. The 'eye' is not a Masonic invention.

If you don't disapprove then you are also in opposition to:
But YOU supposedly are not.

I'm sorry, but that is not going to convince anyone who believes in the Bible or just common sense.

How do you explain the actions of Jesus on money? Was there any record that Jesus kept any form of images back then?

There were images on the coins, yes. We know this from history but also because when he said to "give unto Caesar...." it was in connection with the fact of Caesar being pictured on the coin. In addition, we know that the Apostles and Christ had a Treasurer, Judas. So your theories that Jesus didn't use money and that you are somehow exempt from the standards you say are against the Bible fall flat.
 
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