Masons

[WalksWithChrist]

I don't know much about Freemasons but I do know that the Catholic Church is strongly opposed to them. From what I have read about them, I don't see any conflict between someone being a Freemason and a Christian in good standing.

The conflict is pretty glaring. Organizations like the Masons partake in complex and secret rituals that go against basic Christian principles of not taking oathes. That's just the tip of a very large iceberg! If you really want to start reading more and getting a better picture of what the Masons are, read the link I posted about for the Order of Former Freemasons site.
Here's one other I found just now that puts a lot of info in a small package:
http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/masons.htm

 

[Dmckay]

I don't know much about Freemasons but I do know that the Catholic Church is strongly opposed to them. From what I have read about them, I don't see any conflict between someone being a Freemason and a Christian in good standing.

How about "no man can serve two Masters?" Freemasons take vows which bind them to their Freemason ties over and above ANY other authority. This includes Christ.

 

[WalksWithChrist]

How about "no man can serve two Masters?" Freemasons take vows which bind them to their Freemason ties over and above ANY other authority. This includes Christ.

This is a common observation among those examining Freemasonry as it relates to Christianity. Heard it many times.

 

[Dmckay]

This is a common observation among those examining Freemasonry as it relates to Christianity. Heard it many times.

I have had this discussion with Pastors I know, as well as members of my own church who think that they can keep a foot in both worlds without a conflict. Everytime I point out specific conflicts, the all quickly try to change the subject.

 

[WalksWithChrist]

I have had this discussion with Pastors I know, as well as members of my own church who think that they can keep a foot in both worlds without a conflict. Everytime I point out specific conflicts, the all quickly try to change the subject.

As well they should! No sense in being proved wrong and getting embarassed and God forbid...admit a mistake and assume any responsibility for it.

 

[Dmckay]

As well they should! No sense in being proved wrong and getting embarassed and God forbid...admit a mistake and assume any responsibility for it.

I guess that after all these years I am still naive enought to hope that those who claim the name of Christ will accept responsibility for their actions.

 

[WalksWithChrist]

I guess that after all these years I am still naive enought to hope that those who claim the name of Christ will accept responsibility for their actions.

Oh, they will...eventually.

 

[imind]

The conflict is pretty glaring. Organizations like the Masons partake in complex and secret rituals that go against basic Christian principles of not taking oathes.

oaths of office are ok, though, correct?

its ignorance of this group that fuels the controversy. there is nothing wrong with being a freemason and an being a christian 'in good standing'.

 

[WalksWithChrist]

oaths of office are ok, though, correct?

its ignorance of this group that fuels the controversy. there is nothing wrong with being a freemason and an being a christian 'in good standing'.

No, they're not ok either. Keep in mind many elected officials have been and are...Masons. I'm sure they don't mind keeping the oathes. And as such, wrote many of the rules we play by. As much as I've read on the subject...I'm far from ignorant. But thanks for the compliment!

 

[imind]

As much as I've read on the subject...I'm far from ignorant. But thanks for the compliment!

one can read volumes on a subject, while remaining ignorant of it, thanks to people who have no problem spreading lies.

it was not meant to be an insult. we are all ignorant of some things, as we cannot know everything.

 

[KEPLER]

The Mason had their roots in a special branch of the Roman Catholic Church during the Crusades known as the Knights Templar. The group has devolved since then to a non-Christian/Christian Cult depending on who you use as a source.

Much of the information that was used in the movie National Treasure with Nicholas Cage has been documented by many different groups. There are even those who believe thatJack the ripper was never caught because it was tied to a well known and powerful Mason in England at the time.

This is NOT a harmless fraternal order that any Christian whould even consider being involved with.

This is the "Popular Mythology"of the Freemasons, and (with all due respect, Dmckay) it is hogwash.

Ethan_Fetch was 100% correct in his post. The Masons date back to the late 17th and early 18th century. The are generally deistic in their beliefs. There are those who profess to be Christians who are also Masons, but with the "official" belief being Deism, one wonders how these men are BOTH Christian and Deist???

HOWEVER, they do NOT date back to the Crusades; the do NOT date back to King Solomon; they do NOT date back to Ancient Egypt. They date back to 18th century Scotland.

If anyone wants the real stroy, well...my Ph.D. advisor (Margaret Jacob, Professor of History at UCLA) is probably the world's leading authority on the history of the Freemasons and just so happens to have a recent book out on the subject. WARNING: It's a little bit "dull", since it deals with actual facts and doesn't have any of the "conspiracy theory" stuff in it, a la National Tresure or The DaVinci Code...it's REAL history: it's good and it's accurate. Find it on Amazon here. (Peg is actually a VERY engaging writer; the book is not dull at all...it just will not satisfy any tin-foil hat wearing conspiracy nuts...)

Cheers,

Kepler

 

[Dmckay]

This is the "Popular Mythology"of the Freemasons, and (with all due respect, Dmckay) it is hogwash.

Ethan_Fetch was 100% correct in his post. The Masons date back to the late 17th and early 18th century. The are generally deistic in their beliefs. There are those who profess to be Christians who are also Masons, but with the "official" belief being Deism, one wonders how these men are BOTH Christian and Deist???

HOWEVER, they do NOT date back to the Crusades; the do NOT date back to King Solomon; they do NOT date back to Ancient Egypt. They date back to 18th century Scotland.

If anyone wants the real stroy, well...my Ph.D. advisor (Margaret Jacob, Professor of History at UCLA) is probably the world's leading authority on the history of the Freemasons and just so happens to have a recent book out on the subject. WARNING: It's a little bit "dull", since it deals with actual facts and doesn't have any of the "conspiracy theory" stuff in it, a la National Tresure or The DaVinci Code...it's REAL history: it's good and it's accurate. Find it on Amazon here. (Peg is actually a VERY engaging writer; the book is not dull at all...it just will not satisfy any tin-foil hat wearing conspiracy nuts...)

Cheers,

Kepler

With all due respect to your friend, I to have researched this, and most of the various sources I have read are pretty close in there history and timeline. I never mentioned King Solomon. And some of the earliest traceable roots are the Knight of Malta who built hospitals to treat wounded Crusaders.

 

[KEPLER]

With all due respect to your friend, I to have researched this, and most of the various sources I have read are pretty close in there [sic: their]history and timeline. I never mentioned King Solomon. And some of the earliest traceable roots are the Knight of Malta who built hospitals to treat wounded Crusaders.

Please describe the "various sources" you have used... Peg spent years in archives in France, Holland, Germany, Scotland and England.

The Knights of Malta, FWIW, evetually became the Knights Hospitalers of St. John. I worked in one of their Monastries for a short time when I was doing research in Haarlem, in the Netherlands.

I suspect the "various sources" you have seen are "pretty close" because they all essentially copy one another. But perhaps I am wrong...

Kepler

 

[WalksWithChrist]

one can read volumes on a subject, while remaining ignorant of it, thanks to people who have no problem spreading lies.

it was not meant to be an insult. we are all ignorant of some things, as we cannot know everything.

Looks like you should be talking to KEPLER or Dmckay about this. They seems *way* more knowledgeable than I on this subject. Props to them both!
A lot of what I've read comes from former Masons. Some of whom I've met and talked with personally. I don't think they were lying.

 

[imind]

There are those who profess to be Christians who are also Masons, but with the "official" belief being Deism, one wonders how these men are BOTH Christian and Deist???

correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't more of a situation similar to AA where they profess a 'supreme being' but allow that interpretation to take whatever form the individual wants?

 

[KEPLER]

correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't more of a situation similar to AA where they profess a 'supreme being' but allow that interpretation to take whatever form the individual wants?

If there were ONLY Christian Masons, there might not be a problem...BIG problems arise, however, when you have a bunch of guys calling themselves "brothers", but one worships Vishnu, one Buddha, one Allah, one YHWH, and finally one who worships the Triune God of Chritainity. At his point they are all professing belief in a "Great Architect", but each one's is different. It ends up being mush.

The second problem is the secrecy built into the Freemasons. In my Church (the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod), publicly alligning oneself with an instittion which is suspected of having unChristian beliefs is enough to get you barred from the Communion Table. I.e., if a Pastor were distributing the bread and wine and saw a man with a Masonic ring, the Pastor will pass the man by, and not serve him. Since the Masons are secretive, the Pastor has no assurance of what that man's beliefs actually are.

Rotary Club or Kiwanas or Lion's Club are all OK, precisely becasue their meetings are public and their purpose is civic.

K

 

[Rick Otto]

Your friend Peg wouldn't have her credentials for long, if she didn't stick to sources & conclusions approved by those who pay her, would she?

This is not to defend "conspiracy nuts", rather to expose the investments being protected by those who would reflexively marginalize alternative theories and ignore contradictory evidence on the basis of guilt by association with "nuts", of whom there are plenty on both sides of the equation.

 

[Dmckay]

Would you accept as canon for the Masons teachigs from their universally approved doctrinal book of FreeMasonry,"aamorals and Dogmw of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry." by Albert Pike, Grand Commander, 1859-1891?

(Masonry)…The custodian and depository (since Enoh) of thr great philosophical and religious truths, unknow to the wold at large, and handed down from age to age by an unbroken current of tradition, embodied in symbols, emblems and allegories." p.210

"Every Masonic Temple is a Temple of Religion, and its teachings are instructions in religion." p 213

"The first Masonic legislator whose memory is preserved to us by history, was Buddha, who, about a thousand years before the Christian era, reformed the religion of Manous." p 277

"It [Masonry] reverences all the geat reformers. It sees in Moses, the Law Giver to the Jews, in Confucious and Zoroaster, in Jesus of Nazareth, and in the Arabian Icomoclast, great teachers of morality, and eminent reformers, if no more; and allows every brother of the order to assign toeach such higher and even divine characteristics as his creed and truth require." p 525

"The true Mason is not creed-bound. He realizes with the divine illumonation of his lodge that as a Mason his religion must be universal: Christ, Buddha or Mohammed, the name means little, for he recognizes only the light and not the bearer. He worships at evey shrine, bows before every altar, whether in temple, Mosque or cathedral, realizing with his truer understanding he oneness of all spiritual truth." {The Lost Keys of FreeMasonry, Manly P. hall, 33rd, page 65 Macoy Publishing and Masonic Supply Co. Eichmond, VA, 1976)

"Everything good in nature comes from OSIRIS—order, harmony, and the favorable temperature of the seasons an celestial periods." p 476

"The teachers, even of Christianity, are in general, the most ignorant of the true meaning of that which they teach. There is no book of which so little is known as the Bible. To most who read it, it is as incomprehensible as the Sohar." p 105

This is just a small sampling of some of their teachings from their own books. Or do you suppose that they have a separate set of doctrinal works that they study, and that these were written for laypersons and Christians to read?

 

[KEPLER]

Would you accept as canon for the Masons teachigs from their universally approved doctrinal book of FreeMasonry,"aamorals and Dogmw of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry." by Albert Pike, Grand Commander, 1859-1891?

(Masonry)…The custodian and depository (since Enoh) of thr great philosophical and religious truths, unknow to the wold at large, and handed down from age to age by an unbroken current of tradition, embodied in symbols, emblems and allegories." p.210

"Every Masonic Temple is a Temple of Religion, and its teachings are instructions in religion." p 213

"The first Masonic legislator whose memory is preserved to us by history, was Buddha, who, about a thousand years before the Christian era, reformed the religion of Manous." p 277

"It [Masonry] reverences all the geat reformers. It sees in Moses, the Law Giver to the Jews, in Confucious and Zoroaster, in Jesus of Nazareth, and in the Arabian Icomoclast, great teachers of morality, and eminent reformers, if no more; and allows every brother of the order to assign toeach such higher and even divine characteristics as his creed and truth require." p 525

"The true Mason is not creed-bound. He realizes with the divine illumonation of his lodge that as a Mason his religion must be universal: Christ, Buddha or Mohammed, the name means little, for he recognizes only the light and not the bearer. He worships at evey shrine, bows before every altar, whether in temple, Mosque or cathedral, realizing with his truer understanding he oneness of all spiritual truth." {The Lost Keys of FreeMasonry, Manly P. hall, 33rd, page 65 Macoy Publishing and Masonic Supply Co. Eichmond, VA, 1976)

"Everything good in nature comes from OSIRIS—order, harmony, and the favorable temperature of the seasons an celestial periods." p 476

"The teachers, even of Christianity, are in general, the most ignorant of the true meaning of that which they teach. There is no book of which so little is known as the Bible. To most who read it, it is as incomprehensible as the Sohar." p 105

This is just a small sampling of some of their teachings from their own books. Or do you suppose that they have a separate set of doctrinal works that they study, and that these were written for laypersons and Christians to read?

No, I would NOT accept them, for very obvious reasons.

Your method of argument here is EXACTLY analogous to the way Mormons defend their church using the Book of Mormon. Since it says in the Book of Mormon that two lost Hebrew tribes came to North America, then we know that two lost Hebrew tribes came to North America.

Just as the Mormons created their own mythology, so did the Masons create theirs. So, no, the works of Alfred Pike and Manly Hall are NOT reliable in and of themselves. There must be corroborating evidence. And there is none.

There are no historical records of ANY kind dating before the 1650s. Somebody writing in 1890 that the Masons existed before 1650 is NOT evidence. It is an assertion. It begs the question.

Furthermore, when there is contradictory evidence, works such as Albert Pike and the Book of Mormon must (by all intelligent people) be discarded as any kind of reliable history. Since we know from DNA tests that Native American tribes are in no way related to Hebrew blood stock, the ENTIRE premise of Mormonism is discredited and the religion is proved false.

Kepler

 

[Dmckay]

No, I would NOT accept them, for very obvious reasons.

Your method of argument here is EXACTLY analogous to the way Mormons defend their church using the Book of Mormon. Since it says in the Book of Mormon that two lost Hebrew tribes came to North America, then we know that two lost Hebrew tribes came to North America.

Just as the Mormons created their own mythology, so did the Masons create theirs. So, no, the works of Alfred Pike and Manly Hall are NOT reliable in and of themselves. There must be corroborating evidence. And there is none.

There are no historical records of ANY kind dating before the 1650s. Somebody writing in 1890 that the Masons existed before 1650 is NOT evidence. It is an assertion. It begs the question.

Furthermore, when there is contradictory evidence, works such as Albert Pike and the Book of Mormon must (by all intelligent people) be discarded as any kind of reliable history. Since we know from DNA tests that Native American tribes are in no way related to Hebrew blood stock, the ENTIRE premise of Mormonism is discredited and the religion is proved false.

Kepler

I take it that you are a Mason in good standing and don't want to see them put down by their own words. What I copied was right out of their own teaching material. I suppose they are like that Democrat politician who said that he lied to himself in his own journal?