Masonic Salvation in SC

[Rev Wayne]

show me an obituary

Here's one:

Figured you'd be able to manage that. Now show that to be the pattern of obituaries in general. You won't manage that one so well, because it's not.

 

[Skip Sampson]

Figured you'd be able to manage that.

Glad you liked it, but you originally said I couldn't do it. Oh, well... At any rate, it's not subject to copyright, so all readers may use it as opportunity arises.

Now show that to be the pattern of obituaries in general. You won't manage that one so well, because it's not.

Wouldn't even try to. A Christian can write his own to deliver the message as he sees fit. The lost can continue to use an obit as one more chance to puff up their vanity.

BTW, I guess you were wrong about the blazing star not being changed in ritual. Once again, it's shown that I know more about SC Masonry than do you. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Rev Wayne]

A Christian can write his own to deliver the message as he sees fit.

Or, as in the case presented here, a relative can do so.

I guess you were wrong about the blazing star not being changed in ritual.

You "guess"--which is about as good as your other guesses, which have produced Jacob's Staircase, rectangular cubes, and marrying prostitutes--not to mention, your latest one, that "Jesus" and "Christ" are two different people.

 

[Akiba021]

Ok. First of all, you guys are debating this completely out of context. Freemasonry is not a religion and has, over the course of it's existence, stated this blatantly. Furthermore, it is not made up solely of Christians, which seem to be the only people you acknowledge as existing. I take particular notice of.. Was it "Skip"? I'm just guessing because I can't see the thread while I type this, but he ended his posts with "Cordially, Skip", which makes it sound like he's writing me a love letter. Regardless, I take particular note of how he called non-christians "the lost". I don't know whether to be insulted, amused, or plain flattered, because honestly that name sounds pretty cool. Let me start by saying blatantly that I'm and Agnostic Atheist. Let me clarify by stating that, yes, despite popular(Read: Ignorant) belief, you can be both. I can't believe in a particular God, as there's no proof of one(Please, [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], don't tell me there is or I'll laugh hysterically at you and possibly be insulted that you'd think me weak enough to be swayed), but I won't say that there's not one, in any serious or definite way, because I claim only to be intelligent enough to know I know not the machinations of the universe at large(Or anything outside of it), and as such, I fall into an Atheistic category because I have no religion(Atheism means literally "A-Without, Theism-Religion.) I know simply that I am a good man. I do believe that there is something out there. A cosmic force, if you will. One of benevolence. I do not know, however, if it is a living, thoughtful being, or simply the life force of the universe itself at work. It could be anything. I don't believe in heaven, or hell, because I haven't yet experienced death. I do believe in my heart, however, that I will find answers to my questions in death, even if I only cease to exist in any meaningful way once I'm gone. I'm not a mason, though many of my recent ancestors were. I would like to be one, though, especially after reading your initial post, which seemed to imply(to me, anyway) that Masonry is not based on worshiping a God, or a celestial heavenly being of any sort, but rather simply being good. Living purely, and living well. I've done my research on Freemasonry, and if you knew anything it would be that a majority of the members of Freemasonry are of the Christian faith. However, unlike the intolerant hate-mongering Christians that seem so prevalent these days, they do not discriminate based on creed. They accept all religions, and promise salvation to GOOD(Do not read as: Faithful) people. Now you seem to read "Salvation" as "Passage into heaven". I read it differently. I read salvation as a freedom from evil. If I die a good man, I'm saved, not by going to your heaven, but by having peace of mind that I did good in life, and that I left the world a better place. You can be a devout Christian and still be an evil man. For instance, Christians who discriminate against homosexuals are evil men. They discriminate, and that is evil, regardless of their faith in their God. To be a Freemason, you have to be a good man. Not a faithful man. A GOOD man. And the fact that you hate an organization based entirely on the GOOD OF HUMANITY, I think.. I think that makes you a bad man. Go to the website for the South Carolina Freemasons. The Grand Master is a devout Christian and blatantly references his belief in Jesus Christ several times in each of his writings. I am a GOOD man. I curse, I shout, I touch, and I have had premarital sex, but I still do things because they're RIGHT. GOOD. HELP PEOPLE. Not because a celestial being told me to. I'll leave with a quote by Marcus Aurelius, which I think has a deeper meaning than anything I've read in a Christian text, Bible included.

"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."

 

[Skip Sampson]

Akiba021:
I'll separate my responses into those addressing Freemasonry and those addressing Christianity.

As to Freemasonry:

Freemasonry is not a religion and has, over the course of it's existence, stated this blatantly.

I disagree, as do some Masons. All GL's do indeed proclaim that they are not a religion, but the issue is not their view of themselves; rather, it's whether their organization meets the definition of the term. I present my case that it is a religion here: Ephesians 5:11 - Masonic Discussion Board: Is Freemasonry a Religion? Let me know what you think.

Furthermore, it is not made up solely of Christians

Actually, my view is that there are no Christians who are Masons; therefore, it's made up solely of non-Christians.

I'm not a mason, though many of my recent ancestors were. I would like to be one, though, especially after reading your initial post, which seemed to imply(to me, anyway) that Masonry is not based on worshiping a God, or a celestial heavenly being of any sort, but rather simply being good. Living purely, and living well.

Masonry would not accept you under your descriptions of your beliefs. The mere fact you would apply the word "atheist" to yourself would disqualify you. You are incorrect on your view of my first post. Masonry demands that it's members believe in the existence of a god, but it doesn't care who or what that god might be. Masonry does indeed demand that their people be 'good,' but goes further in indicating that their good works will gain them entrance into God's presence in heaven. It's called 'salvation by works' and is in direct opposition to the Christian salvation by faith viewpoint.

I've done my research on Freemasonry, and if you knew anything it would be that a majority of the members of Freemasonry are of the Christian faith. However, unlike the intolerant hate-mongering Christians that seem so prevalent these days, they do not discriminate based on creed.

It would be interesting to find out why you think the 'Christians' within Freemasonry are so radically different from the 'hate-mongering Christians' you find outside the Lodge. But you are wrong about Freemasonry not discriminating based on creed, as they do not accept atheists.

And the fact that you hate an organization based entirely on the GOOD OF HUMANITY, I think.. I think that makes you a bad man.

Hate has nothing to do with it; rather, it's sadness that some men are so insecure that they need to have their vanity puffed up by a Potemkin village of morality and worth. But, your characterization of Freemasonry is incorrect, as it discriminates against most of humanity by limiting its membership to only certain men. If anything, Freemasonry is based on building up the ego of its members, who in their own eyes become paragons of virtue. As to me, you've just discriminated against me, an act you elsewhere characterize as evil. But be of good cheer: I see myself as a bad man (see 1 Timothy 1:15).

Christianity, etc:

I fall into an Atheistic category because I have no religion(Atheism means literally "A-Without, Theism-Religion.)

It is hard to take you seriously because of comments like that, which indicate you don't know the meaning of the terms with which you describe yourself. Atheism is from the Greek term atheos (without + god) meaning 'godless.' In English it's the doctrine or belief that there is no god. It has nothing to do with religion. Based on your comments, you fall directly into the agnostic category.

I do believe that there is something out there.

Don't we all. The difference here is that you demand that whatever our there must be proven by your personal views based on experience. Me, I see God all around me, but I concluded that if there were a God, he would have left something with man talking about himself and what he wanted. The Bible fit that category for me, and the rest is history.

I am a GOOD man. ... I still do things because they're RIGHT.

In whose eyes? You claim to be a good man because you see yourself as such. You characterize the things you do as right because you yourself have determined that they are. We believe that what is good or evil depends on God's determination, not ours. A main belief in Christianity is that we are NOT good, that we are evil in our nature, which is why Jesus came to die for our sins. You believe in a morality that is man-centered, which makes it changeable and scenario-dependent; we believe in a morality that is God-centered, which is expressed in absolute terms (e.g., Don't steal. Period). Freemasonry is very much a man-centered moral organization, to the point that it only insists that each member lives by his self-determined moral code.

I take particular note of how he called non-christians "the lost". I don't know whether to be insulted, amused, or plain flattered,

Be none of those; rather, just be warned.

I do believe in my heart, however, that I will find answers to my questions in death,

How true.

even if I only cease to exist in any meaningful way once I'm gone.

How about if you suffer endless torment when you're gone? Will be happy then?

I read salvation as a freedom from evil.

You can define it any way you wish, but in theological terms it means 'deliverance from the power and penalty of sin; redemption.' Your use of the term is instructive, in that you only see your own definition, and not the commonly accepted one. That was also true in your definition of 'atheim.' From my limited contact with atheists, I'm always struck by how self-centered they are. It's led me to conclude that arrogance and intellectual shallowness are key attributes of the atheist.

Christians who discriminate against homosexuals are evil men. They discriminate, and that is evil, regardless of their faith in their God.

Christians do not discriminate against homosexuals; rather, they state that God has condemned the practice as a sin and that no Christian could participate in, nor support, the act. As to discrimination being evil, you are incorrect. All of us discriminate every day: which gas station do I use, where should I buy my onions, who do I trust to fix my car? All examples of discrimination.

I put this kindly: I appreciate your being open about your views, but throughout your post one sees the arrogance, conceit and lack of critical thinking so typical of the young. I'd suggest you spend more time in deep thought supported by a wide-ranged reading program before you pontificate futher. Cordially, Skip.

P.S. - You might profit from looking up the term I closed with.

 

[Cajuntinman]

Weather not a man is a Christian or not is between him and Christ. Individual [FONT='Calibri','sans-serif'] opinions can not codemn someone. [/FONT]

 

[Skip Sampson]

Weather not a man is a Christian or not is between him and Christ.

Not quite. When a man claims to be a Christian, we can assess his actions before be believe his words. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Rev Wayne]

We had some interesting materials at a recent Wardens Workshop. One of the topics addressed in our booklet was "Religion and Freemasonry." The section addressed antimasonic objections by stating the objection and then offering a reply:

1. By swearing the Masonic Oath, the Christian swears to doctrines that the Bible pronounces false and sinful. For example, Masonry teaches the false doctrine of "the Fatherhood of God," whereas Jesus taught that only those who receive Him have the right to become children of God (see John 1:12).

This is incorrect and a misrepresentation of the facts. The Masonic Fraternity does teach the Fatherhood of God, and the Brotherhood of man. This precept teaches that mankind/humanity came from one God who created heaven and earth. "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" (Genesis 1:1), therefore God is the Father of all creation. It is nto the Masonic fraternity's purpose to convict someone of their sin. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If you had known me, ye should have known my Father also; and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. . . he that hath seen me hath seen the Father." (John 14:6-9)
Additionally, no one has a right to become children of God. The gift of salvation was paid by Jesus on mount Calvary, and it is GOD who chooses not we ourselves.

2. By swearing the Masonic Oath, the Christian swears to accept and promote the Masonic falsehood that Jesus is just one of many equally revered prophets in the world. Yet Jesus said, "I amd the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6)

This is incorrect. I have received every degree that the Masonic Fraternity can confer and this is an erroneous statement. The Masonic Oaths do not declare that the Aspirant will accept and promote that Jesus is just one of many equally revered prophets in the world. I infer that someone has secured a copy of Morals and Dogma by Albert Pike and they have gleaned statements from the ceremony of extinguishing the lights that fit their designed attack uon Masonry. If this is the case, shame on them for promoting false doctrine. The ceremony of the extinguishing the lights held on Maundy Thursday is a challenge to everyone to look at the life of Christ and the good he did prior to his arrest, conviction, execution, burial, and ascension. When Christ willingly gave his life and yielded up the ghost darkness pervaded the hearts of humanity. The ceremony ofr extinguishing the liights should cause everyone to focus on the life of Christ. "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." (John 12:32) We may plant and we may water, but GOD chooses.
(Grand Master's Workshop for Senior and Junior Wardens, p. 44)

Nice to have a GM who doesn't mind addressing the misplaced accusations of accusers, and who doesn't mind pointing out Christ in Masonic interpretation. He seems to have broken the "old school" mold of "Masonic silence" toward detractors which has typified those before him.

 

[Rev Wayne]

When a man claims to be a Christian, we can assess his actions before be believe his words.

"The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart." (1 Samuel 16:7)

Only God knows the heart. What presumption to set oneself up as judge in contradiction to what Scripture tells us.

 

[ChristianMasonJim]

Not quite. When a man claims to be a Christian, we can assess his actions before be believe his words.

Well, at least this is consistent with your belief that a man cannot be a Christian simply because he is a Freemason.

 

[Ishraqiyun]

Freemasonry sounds great. I've been doing some reading on the subject myself lately.

 

[Rev Wayne]

What ya been reading?

 

[Skip Sampson]

Nice to have a GM who doesn't mind addressing the misplaced accusations of accusers, and who doesn't mind pointing out Christ in Masonic interpretation. He seems to have broken the "old school" mold of "Masonic silence" toward detractors which has typified those before him.

Too bad he doesn't understand Christian theology.

For example, Masonry teaches the false doctrine of "the Fatherhood of God," whereas Jesus taught that only those who receive Him have the right to become children of God (see John 1:12).

This is incorrect and a misrepresentation of the facts.

Actually, it is a correct statement of the Biblical view. No one can call God his father unless he is his child; and one can only become a child of God through faith in Jesus. The rest of his first point leads me to question his further understanding of Biblical doctrine.

Additionally, no one has a right to become children of God. The gift of salvation was paid by Jesus on mount Calvary, and it is GOD who chooses not we ourselves.

Just how do you interpret that comment?

The Masonic Oaths do not declare that the Aspirant will accept and promote that Jesus is just one of many equally revered prophets in the world. I infer that someone has secured a copy of Morals and Dogma by Albert Pike

True, the oaths do not make such statements, but the 1946 copy of the Kentucky Monitor says exactly that, as does A Bridge to Light. Would be interesting to hear him address those Masonic references.

Just who is making the criticism he is responding to? Not sure where he got either point to criticize, but I think he just created a strawman that he could address. The primary criticism of Masonic obligations and oaths, for example, is rooted in Matt 5:37, which he addresses not at all. If he ever wants to engage on the topic, ask him to show up here and I'll be happy to discuss with him.

Personally, I think your GM is just another example of Masonic scholarship. And, btw, I'm assuming the spelling errors in his comments are yours and not his. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Skip Sampson]

Only God knows the heart. What presumption to set oneself up as judge in contradiction to what Scripture tells us.

Oh, I don't know; I think I was on solid Biblical grounds:

“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. (Matt 7:15)

In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven. (Matt 5:16)

We assess a man by his actions. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Skip Sampson]

Well, at least this is consistent with your belief that a man cannot be a Christian simply because he is a Freemason.

Not quite. A Freemason can always become a Christian, but he won't be able to remain a Freemason afterwards. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Not quite. A Freemason can always become a Christian, but he won't be able to remain a Freemason afterwards.

That's just an opinion of course. Masons know differently. And in some cases, it's the other way around, they became a Christian many years before they ever became a Mason. Given that 85% of Christians became so before they turned 18, you can bet, the process probably most often DOES work the opposite way from the way you describe it.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Actually, it is a correct statement of the Biblical view. No one can call God his father unless he is his child; and one can only become a child of God through faith in Jesus. The rest of his first point leads me to question his further understanding of Biblical doctrine.

Apparently you have a poor memory. As many times as we've been over the Fog-Bom issue, I would have thought you'd seen my presentation showing beyond a doubt that the idea is Christian in origin, not Masonic, much like the cardinal and theological virtues.

Just how do you interpret that comment?

He's simply stating that we do not have a "right" to become children of God, because becoming a child of God is a gift. On that point he is essentially correct. But I think he may have had a myopic moment and missed the fact that the statement he just criticized actually says "only those who receive Him have the right to become children of God." That essentially says the same thing he stated, I think he saw the "right to become children of God," perhaps, with his focus only on that part of the sentence, and unintentionally divorced it from the rest of the comment. And personally, I'd have gone to the Romans reference (8:14, I think) about the work of the Spirit in leading people to become children of God.

True, the oaths do not make such statements, but the 1946 copy of the Kentucky Monitor says exactly that, as does A Bridge to Light. Would be interesting to hear him address those Masonic references.

And apply a monitor that strictly applies to Kentucky, in some way to South Carolina Masons/Masonry? You know it doesn't work that way.

Personally, I think your GM is just another example of Masonic scholarship. And, btw, I'm assuming the spelling errors in his comments are yours and not his.

They're called typos, and yes. This wasn't something on which I could engage your favorite hobby of copy & paste.

We assess a man by his actions.

And of course, your assessments are always skewed.

 

[Skip Sampson]

As many times as we've been over the Fog-Bom issue, I would have thought you'd seen my presentation showing beyond a doubt that the idea is Christian in origin, not Masonic

Yep, I remember our discussions, and the 'beyond doubt' part is untrue, except perhaps in your own mind. Your case was mainly a defense of Masonry, not an analysis of Biblical doctrine. I'll stand by my comments. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Your case was mainly a defense of Masonry, not an analysis of Biblical doctrine.

It wasn't about showing it to be biblical doctrine, it clearly is, and Christianity taught it long before Masonry did. I've traced it back in Christian documents to at least early 1800's (and it probably extends further than that). But 1864 is the earliest date i find for it in Masonry.

 

[Skip Sampson]

This thread has been updated with quotes from the SC GL Lodge System of Masonic Education, Revised Edition, 2006. Cordially, Skip.