Masonic Salvation in SC

[Skip Sampson]

SC Freemasonry teaches the concept of salvation-by-works and promises that admission to heaven for any Mason can be had through its rites and ceremonies, as these quotes from their Ahiman Rezon (2010) and the Lodge System of Masonic Education (2006) indicate:

If the first degree is intended as a representation of youth, and the second of manhood, the third, or Master Mason, is emblematic of old age, with its trials, its sufferings, and its final termination in death. The time for toiling is now over; the opportunity to learn has passed away; the spiritual temple that we all have been striving to erect in our hearts is now nearly completed, and the wearied workman awaits only the word of the Grand Master of the Universe, to call him from the labors of the earth to the eternal refreshment of heaven. (AR, pg. 141)

As an Entered Apprentice, the Mason was taught those elementary instructions which were to fit him for further advancement in his profession, just as the youth is suppled with that rudimentary education which is to prepare him for entering on the active duties of life; as a Fellow Craft, the Mason is directed to continue his investigations in the science of the Institution, and to labor diligently in the tasks it prescribes, just as the man is required to enlarge his mind by the acquisition of new ideas, and to extend his usefulness to his fellow-creatures; but, as the Master, the Mason is taught to last, the most important, and the most necessary of truths, that having been faithful to all his trusts, he is at last to die, and to receive the rewards of his fidelity. (AR, pg. 141)

It was the single object of all the ancient rites and mysteries practiced in the very bosom of pagan darkness, shining as a solitary beacon in all that surrounding gloom, and cheering the philosopher in his weary pilgrimage of life, to teach the immortality of the soul. This is still the great design of the third degree of Masonry. This is the scope and aim of its ritual. The Master Mason represents man, when youth, manhood, old age, and life itself have passed away as fleeting shadows, yet raised from the grave of iniquity, and quickened into another and better existence. By its legend and all its ritual, it is impled that we have been redeemed from the death of sin and the sepulchre of pollution. "The ceremonies and the lecture," as a distinguished writer has observed, "beautifully illustrate this all-engrossing subject, and the conclusion we arrive at is, that youth, properly directed, leads the life of man, regulated by morality, faith and justice, will be rewarded at its closing hour by the prospect of eternal bliss." (AR pg. 142)

"... redeemed from the death of sin and the sepulchre of pollution" by whom? Here's the clue:

Your virtue, honor, and reputation are concerned in supporting with dignity the character you now bear. Let no motive, therefore, make you swerve from your duty, violate your vows, or betray your trust; but be true and faithful and imitate the example of that celebrated artist whom you have this evening represented. Thus you will render yourself deserving of the honor which we have conferred, and merit the confidence that we have reposed. (AR, pg. 162)

The verse is discussing Hiram Abif, the 'Masonic messiah,' whom all good Masons are called to emulate. Muslims have Muhammad, Christians have Jesus, Masons have Hiram. Only Jesus is real, and the sole mediator between God and man, regardless of what Freemasonry has to say.

Notice that faith in Jesus is not mentioned anywhere as a requirement for heaven, nor is the fact that the Mason must believe in Jesus for such "rewards." They all come with being a Mason. The SC GL is clear about this in their discussions of the meaning of the lambskin apron given to the Mason during the EA degree:

The lamb has in all ages been deemed an emblem of innocence; by the lambskin, the Mason is, therefore, reminded of that purity of life and conduct which is so essentially necessary to his gaining admission into the celestial Lodge above, where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides. (AR, pg. 86)

The lambskin or white leather apron is an emblem of innocence and the badge of a Mason; by it the Mason is reminded of that purity of life and rectitude of conduct so necessary to his gaining admission into the Celestial Lodge above. This symbol of purity presented to our Brother on his first entrance into Masonry constantly reminds us of the need of a virtuous life. (AR, pg. 281)

Purity, then, is the key to the Mason entering heaven, and the SC GL thoughtfully defines just what "purity" means:

The Apron is at once an emblem of purity and the badge of a Mason. By purity is meant clean thinking and clean living, a loyal obedience to the laws of the Craft and sincere good will to the brethren; the badge of a Mason signifies that Masons are workers and builders, not drones and destructionists. (LSME, pg. 31)

The SC GL, then, is very precise about what a Mason must do to get into heaven, which is to comply with their salvation-by-works teaching as noted above. Note this as well from the Jacob's vision part of the EA degree:

It’s covering is no less than a cloudy canopy or starry decked heaven, where all good Masons hope at last to arrive, by the aid of that theological ladder which Jacob, in his vision, saw ascending from earth to heaven, the three principal rounds of which are denominated Faith, Hope and Charity, and which admonish us to have faith in God, hope of immortality, and charity to all mankind. (AR, pg. 91)

Such comments in the AR and LSME are merely the completion of the promise made to the candidate:

There he stands without our portals, on the threshold of this new Masonic life, in darkness, helplessness, and ignorance. Having been wandering amid the errors and covered over with the pollutions of the outer and profane world, he comes inquiringly to our doors, seeking the new birth, and asking a withdrawal of the veil which conceals divine truth from his uninitiated sight. (pg. 61)

Though SC is discussed herein, their views reflect those of Freemasonry at large. Comments invited. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Rev Wayne]

"... redeemed from the death of sin and the sepulchre of pollution" by whom? Here's the clue:

Nope, the clue is here:

as a distinguished writer has observed,

And here's where the clue leads, for those who discover its origin:

The acquisition of the doctrine of redemption is expressed in the typical character of Euramen, and by the applications of that name with Masons it is implied, that we have discovered the knowledge of God and his salvation, and have been redeemed from the death of sin and the sepulchre of pollution and unrighteousness. Thus the Master Mason represents a man, under the Christian doctrine, saved from the grave of iniquity and raised to the faith of salvation. As the great testimonial that we are risen from the state of corruption, we bear the emblem of the Holy Trinity, as the insignia of our vows and of the origin of the Master's order. (Hutchinson, Spirit of Masonry, p. 159)

The bold portion, though not encased in quotes in the AR piece cited, can easily be seen to be from the same source. As alluded to before, Masonry does not declare, it alludes, in its rituals and monitors. The monitor does only faint little explanation of the ritual, there are still things even in the monitors that give enough information to cause the curious Mason to do further searching. For the one who does go searching for this one, he will find Hutchinson, where he will also find that the reference is to "Christian doctrine."

Wow, big surprise, since we already have clearer information in the AR that would reveal that, without having to search that far:

The small hill near Mount Moriah can be clearly identified by the most convincing analogies as being no other than Mount Calvary. Thus Mount Calvary was a small hill; it was situated in a westerly direction from the Temple, and near Mount Moriah; It was on the direct road
from Jerusalem to Joppa, and is thus the very spot where a weary brother, traveling on the road, would find it convenient to sit down to rest and refresh himself; it was outside the gate of the Temple; and lastly, there are several caves, or clefts in the rocks, in the neighborhood, one of which, it will be remembered, was, subsequently to the time of this tradition, used as the sepulchre of our Lord. The Christian Mason will readily perceive the peculiar character of the symbolism which this identification of the spot on which the great truth of the resurrection was unfolded in both systems—the Masonic and the Christian—must suggest. (SC Ahiman Rezon, p. 149-50)

The verse is discussing Hiram Abif, the 'Masonic messiah,' whom all good Masons are called to emulate.

Symbolic, of course. But "verse?" Your bifocals acting up again?

Only Jesus is real, and the sole mediator between God and man, regardless of what Freemasonry has to say.

But in SC, which you have made the subject of your meanderings, it's not "regardless" of what Freemasonry has to say here at all; given the above AR quote indicating Mount Calvary as the interpretation of the section mentioned, and with Jesus being the clear indication, and Him referred to as "OUR Lord," and the resurrection of the Christian system being likened to the Masonic, it is not "regardless" of what it says, it's more like "regardING" what it says.

Besides, with your recent hyper-literal imaginations, you seem to need it pointed out to you that the paragraph you cited does not mention Hiram Abiff even once. And in spite of all that kind of hyper-literal insistence, you come here and try to go off on a bender about how everything is "open to interpretation," despite your every insistence that "this" cannot be "that" unless it states it directly. You violate your very own premise on this one, because you have once again insisted "faith in Jesus is not mentioned anywhere." Well, neither is Hiram mentioned anywhere in the Master Mason Charge, which is what you cited this from.

Moreover, if you were to have bothered to check, you would find that there is only one reference to Hiram in the ENTIRE MASTER MASON'S DEGREE in SC, and even in that one, the reference is to Hiram as he appears in York Rite, not in the SC MM degree.

Following your own insistence here and elsewhere that since it doesn't say SPECIFICALLY in the passage that this is Hiram, it can be whoever the Mason wants it to be. Speaking only for myself, I know who it was when I was raised, I was representing Jesus Christ in my heart, because it all suddenly dawned on me in the middle of the drama, just what was going on: the ill-treatment, the death, the being raised. At the outset of it, that had not occurred, but with the beginning of the ruffians and their treatment, at first my hands went up, then it was like a voice telling me, "no, you're not supposed to resist, because Jesus did not." From that point I was a passive participant.

Note the meaning of 'purity' in the second quote.

A "virtuous life" is possible only through Christ, the only virtuous man ever to walk the earth. Again, consistent with the Mt. Moriah interpretation, and consistent with what I interpreted while taking the degree. And "purity" is a requirement in the Christian faith, you already know the drill on that one: Psalm 24:1-4, Hebrews 12:14, Revelation 21:27.

Come on, isn't the apron lecture pretty lame stuff by now, as many times as it's been refuted?

Such comments in the AR are merely the completion of the promise made to the candidate:

The ladder is Jesus Christ, it's OT type. See John 1:51. Faith, Hope, and Love are the three theological virtues also, and they are from NT, 1 Corinthians 13.

And the final cite in your post, which is bizarre you'd even still go there, is symbolic, and declaredly so. What did you do, cite from p. 61 in the first section of the EA degree, without first reading "The Symbolism of the Degree" which preceded it? Had you bothered to read it, you would have found it was symbolic, before you ever tried this hyper-literal nonsense:

On his first admission into the Lodge, the candidate is reminded of the weak and helpless state of man on his entrance into the world—unprepared for the exigencies of the present, ignorant of the vicissitudes of the future, and dependent for his safety and very existence on that God in whom alone, in all trials mid difficulties, Is there any sure and abiding trust. (p. 59)

I can understand why you'd be trying this stunt, since abandoning the thread and creating a new one has been standard antimason approach in any thread where antimason arguments have suffered as thorough a beating as they've recently received from the "lion of the Tribe of Judah" discussion. It's just one of those evasive things they do, cut and run and try to regroup elsewhere, in hopes they can get people to ignore all that was posted in the location where their arguments went bust.

But I really thought you'd present something that might have a chance of actually creating the diversion you thought it would. Rehashing multi-refuted arguments will hardly suffice for that effort.

 

[Skip Sampson]

Wayne:
My initial post on this thread was to show how the SC GL promised salvation to all Master Masons. The quotes speak for themselves in indicating that such men can look forward to the "eternal refreshment of heaven," "receive the rewards of his fidelity," and "rewarded at its closing hour by the prospect of eternal bliss." The Masonic apron is supposed to be a reminder that "purity of life and conduct" are requirements for heaven and the Masonic distortion of Jacob's vision is intended to teach the man that he can climb his way out of the lodge and into heaven without needing Jesus Christ in any way.

Curiously missing from any of this is the Christian view that not all people go to "eternal refreshment." I think it real clear that GL documentation rarely, if every, address any concept of eternal damnation for a Mason but rather insists that the good Master Mason, if he just follows the lessons of the Freemasonry, will find himself welcomed by HIS God after his death.

I also point out the SC GL's view makes perfect sense, given their view that candidates approach Masonry

seeking the new birth, and asking a withdrawal of the veil which conceals divine truth from his uninitiated sight.

Not explained is under what authority Freemasonry is making such claims. Finally, I noted the existence of the Masonic 'messiah,' Hiram Abif, whom all Masons are encouraged to emulate. The SC GL statement is perfectly consistent with other jurisdictions in claiming there are multiple messiahs, meaning that Jesus is not the only mediator between man and God.

Your response, in the main, ignores those proofs. You attempt, rather, to dispute the characterization of Hiram Abif as the masonic messiah, using Hutchinson as your justification. The problem is that Hutchinson does not carry GL authority; therefore, his personal views carry no weight in this discussion, any more than your personal views do. Whatever the personal views of various Masons, the GL statements speak for themselves and you have not shown where they mean anything more or less than just what they say. The SC GL does indeed promise salvation to the Mason, as the quotes so clearly indicate.

Nope, the clue is here:

Actually, it isn't. The AR on pg. 142 does not cite Hutchinson. That a similar phrase is found by that author has no relevance on the issue as the AR points to neither he nor his theories. Hutchinson, like you, wants Masonry to be Christian; SC Masonry does not agree and nowhere demands that. Your GL says

By its legend and all its ritual, it is implied that we have been redeemed from the death of sin and the sepulchre of pollution

but never links that to Christianity. On its face, the blunt statement leads to the question: By what authority can Masonry make such a claim? Short answer: by lying.

For the one who does go searching for this one, he will find Hutchinson, where he will also find that the reference is to "Christian doctrine."

As noted before, Hutchinson does not overrule the GL. His personal views are his alone. Had the GL agreed with him, they'd have so noted.

The Christian Mason will readily perceive the peculiar character of the symbolism which this identificationof the spot on which the great truth of the resurrectionwas unfolded in both systems—the Masonic and the Christian—must suggest. (SC Ahiman Rezon, p. 149-50)

This is not a general teaching of the GL, but something for the "Christian Mason" to consider. Moreover, note how it treats the Masonic system separate from the Christian? Pretty telling, I'd say.

Your bifocals acting up again?

Wrong again: I don't wear bifocals while on the computer.

you seem to need it pointed out to you that the paragraph you cited does not mention Hiram Abiff even once.

An odd thing to say. I don't think the AR mentions Jesus by name, which would be odd if you were right about it's Christian nature. I'll have to check on that as I read further into the AR.

But it doesn't have to mention Hiram by name, in that he's the only one that could possibly fit the context. In the MM degree, the candidate represents Hiram, which makes the connection I made a pretty clear one.

By the way, the LSME 2006 (pg. 50) has an entire subject on Hiram Abif as part of the training on the MM degree. It makes this statement:

Print the story of Hiram Abif indelibly upon your mind; ponder upon it. When you are at grips with our enemies recall it and act according to the light you have found in it. Your inner self will give, in first-hand experience, that which the drama gave in the form of Ritual, and you will be wiser and stronger for having the guidance the Tragedy provides. (pg. 52)

The Masonic messiah, at work.

try to go off on a bender about how everything is "open to interpretation,"

No, I've shown how the SC GL makes some pretty bold and blunt statements about salvation for all good Masons, which, I guess, is a good reason for Masons to pay their dues.

there is only one reference to Hiram in the ENTIRE MASTER MASON'S DEGREE in SC, and even in that one, the reference is to Hiram as he appears in York Rite, not in the SC MM degree.

Are you talking AR or ritual? If SC ritual, who are the three ruffians talking to; who does Jubelum kill; who is buried under the sprig of acacia; who is raised by the Lion's Paw; whose body is carried away for a more decent internment? Answer: same guy as the candidate was representing and as the new MM is called to emulate.

A "virtuous life" is possible only through Christ, the only virtuous man ever to walk the earth.

Not according to the SC GL. Their view is that any Mason can live a virtuous life regardless of religious persuasion.

isn't the apron lecture pretty lame stuff by now, as many times as it's been refuted?

It's never been successfully refuted. It says what it says and means what it says. That certain GL's link purity to adherence to Masonic law makes it even more damning.

you would have found it was symbolic

Symbolic of what? I think it real clear from the GL's statements of its promise to the candidate. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Taking a break from here today, as I will be a bit busy.

And speaking of busy, I have no idea what anyone could say to do justice to life as well-spent as this church member who died very unexpectedly the other day. No doubt about the man's salvation, a true-blue, lifelong Christian no matter which way you choose to examine the life. No, it's not "Masonic" salvation, it's salvation through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. I've always said I love it when someone preaches their own funeral, it makes it easier to do the eulogy. But not in this case, he was a good man whose Christian witness was so filled to the brim with accounts of helping others at every opportunity, there's nothing anyone can add to the witness he left. The obituary:


James Bryan RUFFIN, SC - Mr. James William Bryan, Jr., 70, of Enoch Road in the Hudson Mill Community of Ruffin, entered into his eternal rest Thursday morning, July 28, 2011, at his home. He was married for forty-four years to Mrs. Cathy Gillispie Bryan at the time of her death in March of 2009. The relatives and friends of the Bryan family are invited to attend the funeral services celebrating his life at 3 o'clock Sunday afternoon, July 31, 2011, from Bethel United Methodist Church, 16147 Lowcountry Highway, Ruffin, with The Reverend Wayne Major, The Reverend James Grubb, and The Reverend Roger Quessenbery officiating. Interment with Masonic Rites will follow in the churchyard. Serving as Casket Bearers will be, Richard Breland, Jerry Breland, Glenn Shearer, Keith Newton, Sr., Rodney Murdaugh, Kevin Litchfield, Shane Rushton, and Charlie Pierce. Mr. Bryan was born July 2, 1941, in Ruffin, South Carolina and was the only child of the late James William Bryan, Sr. and the late Thelma Ulmer Bryan. A graduate from Bells High School with the Class of 1960, had received education from the University of South Carolina, and served his country in the United States Army. Westinghouse employed him in Hampton before beginning a life career at Coastal Electric Cooperative where he worked until his retirement. At Coastal, he worked for thirty-four years where he was described as a dedicated and exemplary employee, always performing a more than outstanding job in every aspect of his career. Starting as just a General Repair Clerk, August 1967; he continually grew with his involvement and education in his field of work having held position titles in various divisions of the company to include: Equipment Maintenance Supervisor, Energy Conservation Specialist, and then Office Manager, January 1984. The last assignment he was honored with by Coastal was Director of Outside Operations, March 1989, the position he maintained until retirement on December 21, 2001. Those who knew James Bryan, knew he would not sit idle in his retirement. He almost immediately began two part-time jobs where he was not an employee, but considered as the "Grandfather" figure with two well-known operations in Colleton County. He started with The Brice W. Herndon and Sons Funeral Home, having been primarily a funeral assistant with their locations in Walterboro and Ehrhardt. It was through this employment, he was able to show the love he possessed for God and others through his own special character, coming when needed, and always doing the best he could for those who placed their trust in the Herndon family. His family has a special bond with the Breland family, and he worked with that company, that while giving hard work and dedication, he showed "the other side" of James Bryan that everyone loved, felt closeness with, and counted on. James' work ethic was incomparable to most any other, he believed in hard work and giving to that trade the skill and dedication it demanded having gone beyond the call of duty most every day he worked. He was a lifelong member of Bethel United Methodist Church, Ruffin Circuit, since he was a young child where he gave of himself as a true servant of God. At his church, he was a Sunday School teacher and had served as Sunday School Superintendent. While actively involved with the Methodist Men's Club, Praise Team, and Choir, he also had served on the Administrative Board and Board of Trustees and various other committees when his help was needed. He was also part of the Youth group, having served along with Cathy through a passion for the youth's development as they each grew in their own individual Christianity. Another large part of his life, and a dedication he placed high on his list, was the Salkehatchie Summer Service, a program that he loved, cherished, and realized the importance of supporting and dedicating his time. Many will always fondly remember his presence each year as well as with the leading of their closing ode each time of "O Happy Day". A belief in joining others in the fight against cancer and providing cancer research allowed just another way he gave of himself to the community with the annual Colleton County Relay for Life while being the Walk's Logistic Coordinator during its inception and throughout its earlier years. He was very community minded, and through-out his life was constantly doing for others in civic capacities both actively involved but also in many instances thought silently giving and doing random acts to aid others or accomplish work necessary. He served organizations throughout the Lowcountry because of two traits people admired about him - an unselfish desire to help or simply because others called upon him. Such as serving on his sons High School alma matter, Colleton Preparatory Academy Board of Directors from 1995 to 1998, Colleton County Resource and Development Board from 1995 to 1997 to name a few. He was a member of the Walterboro Lions Club where he served as their chapter President in 1987, was a part of the Boy Scouts of America, and coached in various areas of the Colleton County Recreational Commission ball programs. With the founding of the Ruffin Rural Fire Department, he joined with others in 1974 from the community continuing as a Volunteer Fire Fighter in the county along with his sons, himself having over thirty in-service hours when he retired from active duty in 2009. James made his reputation by who he was, and probably his name was known by almost everyone for either his work at Coastal Electric or with involvement in Free Masonry. James was recognized at a lifetime member a and on July 14, 2011 had achieved forty-two years of membership at Bells Masonic Lodge, No. 236 - Ancient Free Masonry where he was raised to the Sublime Degree of a Master Mason in 1969. Faithfully attending meetings with-in the third Masonic district of South Carolina where his attendance was a necessary aid and his knowledge of Masonic work a true value to those Lodges where several honored him a honorary membership. At Bells Lodge, he was vital in many aspects of the existence of the lodge providing the meals at last minute notice or repairs as needed around the structure. He served as Master of the Lodge for the years of 1976, 1979, 1982, 1994, and 1999, and will always be remembered for serving as Secretary of Bells Lodge, a chair he held from 1999 - 2008. There are many memories of James Bryan that will forever remain in the hearts of the many who loved, valued, cherished, and admired his life. Many looked up to the devilish grin on his face with most any dry but always highly comical nature he had. His work in life will never be forgotten and the groundwork he has left behind will be a helpful guide and memory to his name. He completed what he started and in this life he left nothing unturned. Without any doubt he drifted off Wednesday evening during his relaxation, just hours after spending time providing comfort to a grieving family and a smile to many friends at the funeral home, he himself during the early Thursday morning hours heard our Lord say "Well done thy good and faithful servant".

 

[Skip Sampson]

Wayne:
Since you've chosen to raise this man's obituary in your arguments, I'll respond to it in the same vein, but with this caveat: it is unwise to introduce the actions of people you know into this forum, something I have noted before. As a general practice, family and friends should be left out of your discussions.

No doubt about the man's salvation,

I hope you are making that statement from personal knowledge of him, because the matter of his salvation is not at all clear from his obituary. What is clear is the importance of Masonry in his life, as evidenced by the funeral home obituary featuring a large square and compasses next to his picture. An interesting, though telling, choice of symbols for an obituary. It certainly highlights what was the most important relationship in his life.

From a Masonic viewpoint, the obituary makes the case for his salvation clear on the twin facts of all the 'good' things he did in this life and from the fact that he was a Mason in good standing. The Masonic connections in his obituary are unmistakable, with the last sentence certainly one of the more blunt ones, though I wonder how many nonMasons saw it (emphasis added):

When at last your weary feet shall have reached the end of life's toilsome journey and from your nerveless grasp forever drop the working tools of life, may the record of your life and conduct be as pure and spotless as this fair emblem which I now bestow. When your soul shall stand naked and alone before the Great Judgment, may it be your portion, my Brother, to hear from Him who sitteth there as Judge Supreme, the welcome words, "Well done thou good and faithful servant; enter thou into the joys of the Lord." (SC GL, Apron Lecture, AR, 2010, pg. 75)

In context, the phrase from the obituary is more Masonic than Biblical, and certainly does remind us of his laundry list of good deeds that, Masonically speaking, form a "pure and spotless" record of his life which made him acceptable to God.

From an objective standpoint, I'd be embarrassed to have that as my obituary. It comes across as a long list of credits intended to prove his goodness and to justify his admission to heaven. His life experiences are all credited to him based on his own merits, and his Masonic record seems to be paramount. God gets a few mentions, though in odd ways. Mentioned is 'the love he possessed for God and others,' but that was being shown through his own his personal character, and is more reminiscent of the Masonic 24-inch Gauge than of anything else. He is claimed to be a 'servant of God', but not a 'child of God,' which would seem to the Christian a far more relevant claim. Jesus, of course, gets no mention, which is about what one would expect in a Masonic press event. In short, there is scarce indicaton of a saving experience or a mention of any credit to God for his life's accomplishments.

And his 'devilish grin?' Hooo, boy... That'll go over well at the Great Judgment, a place I'd not like to find myself. BTW, didn't you elsewhere claim that Christians are not judged? Why, then, would this man appear... oh, never mind.

Here's a question to ask yourself: if a Christian wrote his own obituary, would he have written that one? I don't think so.

Aside from this journey through Masonic thinking, his obituary has only limited relevance to the topic at hand, except perhaps to show the impact of the Masonic doctrines as noted. But it certainly does look like this man took the Lodge lessons to heart. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Since you've chosen to raise this man's obituary in your arguments, I'll respond to it in the same vein, but with this caveat: it is unwise to introduce the actions of people you know into this forum, something I have noted before. As a general practice, family and friends should be left out of your discussions.

And once again, I take due notice of your "concerns," and thumb my nose at them. What I posted is public notice, I'll even tell everyone they can find it at Charleston's Post & Courier obituary page for July 30. As usual, readers can see between the lines when you start in with this kind of "caveat," because it's always in self-interest, trying to get me not to post anything that poses any severe challenge to positions you take, namely, trying to claim no Christians are in the lodge.

And once again, I point out for our readers, the real proof in the pudding where the genuineness of ANY Christian's faith is questioned, is the same place Jesus put the emphasis, where is the fruit. The incredible legacy and witness this man left behind him basically leaves me speechless to try to put it into any words that would be adequate.

I hope you are making that statement from personal knowledge of him, because the matter of his salvation is not at all clear from his obituary.

What is clear is the importance of Masonry in his life, as evidenced by the funeral home obituary featuring a large square and compasses next to his picture.

You act like HE put it there. Maybe you didn't catch the fact that he worked for the funeral home after his retirement. The funeral director just happens to be a Mason, it'd be safe to say, he was the one responsible for it being there, for he knew him as a fellow Mason.

An interesting, though telling, choice of symbols for an obituary. It certainly highlights what was the most important relationship in his life.

Leave it to you to join your partner in grime and try to speak ill of the dead. At least, unlike him, you don't put it in terms as nasty as he did, or in a place intended for family members.

The "interesting, though telling" point of the matter is, that you didn't find anything to create an accusation out of the material itself, and found it necessary to go hunting. I'd have to assume you found the Post & Courier obituary first, since it--not the one you just mentioned--was the one I quoted, and still found no accusational point, and went even FURTHER out of your way in your intentional accusational mindset, trying to dig up SOMETHING, ANYTHING you could create fodder with this.

From an objective standpoint, I'd be embarrassed to have that as my obituary.

First of all, your standpoint is anything but "objective," being a proven obsessive antimason who will go to any length to create accusaions even where there are none. And from any standpoint, I'd be embarrassed to have you doing an assessment of my obituary. But then, I don't join you in your obvious lack of compunction in denigrating the dead.

He is claimed to be a 'servant of God', but not a 'child of God,' which would seem to the Christian a far more relevant claim.

Strange, after examining over 200 hits on a newspaper obituary's archives search of "child," I came up with only four hits:

He was a child of the King. . .

She was a member of Friendship United Methodist Church and a faithful servant and child of God.

One year ago God call for His child to come home

Angie lived her life as a true child of God

Interesting too, that though I pulled up fewer hits with "servant," on the very first page, were 10 out of 15 hits:

truly having a servants heart.

... of the Ringle Heights Baptist Church for 40+ years where she is remembered as faithful and diligent servant.

Frank was a faithful servant at Christ- St. Paul's Episcopal Church,

A true servant of the Lord, one of his greatest passions was sharing the word of God with others

Joyce was a devoted wife, mother, grandmother, caregiver, and servant of her Lord.

He had a very generous heart and was a faithful servant of the Lord.

He was a dedicated choir member and servant of God...

... was a young child where he gave of himself as a true servant of God.

faithful servant to his Lord and Savior, and to the churches he pastored. He lived his faith.

He was a lifetime member and servant of Trinity United Methodist Church in Givhans.

The very next page, though I didn't count, appeared to have similar results as well. Seems to me it's much more likely a prospect to find someone called a "servant of God" in an obituary, than to find them called a "child of God." And in ALL the ones I saw of those pulled, the "servant" reference was in relation to their Christian life and witness--including James.

And we're well aware of the position you would take on that matter, being one of the "do-nothing" theological crowd that thinks getting saved is making a profession from the lips, and nothing more. Such theology fails to take the whole of Scripture into account, and mainly focuses on "proof"-texts like Ephesians 2:8-9, while neglecting meatier Scriptural matters like James 1:22, "Be DOERS of the Word, and not hearers only, DECEIVING YOURSELVES."

"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (James 2:26)

"Servant of God" as "less relevant" than child of God? That's for people who have no interest in being saved other than fire insurance. And what you find wrong with being a servant, I do not know. "He who would be great, must first become your servant." (Matt. 20:26)

That's Jesus Himself who said that, by the way. Figured I'd better tell you, since you've given every reason in past discussions to figure you really aren't very likely to recognize it.

When I attended Asbury Seminary, the course titles were designed to keep that reminder before us: "The Servant as Leader" for a course on administration; "The Servant as Liturgist" for a course on worship; "The Servant as Proclaimer" for the preaching course, etc.

One who only wishes to lock down the idea of being a child of God, is more interested in self than others. One who is a servant of God has the emphasis in the right place as Jesus Himself put it, of doing good unto others. And when the time of separation comes, between sheep and goats, it will be on the basis of "you did this unto me," or "you did this not unto me." This is one man of whom there will be on doubt that he "did unto the least of these," for I have had more people come up to me in the last two days, than I have ever had in any other place with any other person, telling me of random acts of kindness he did because someone was in need and called upon him.

One elderly man said it was the Fourth of July weekend, Sunday the third as I recall, when his well pump went out. He was unable to work on it himself, and began calling around to try to get someone to come out and work on it, but no one from any of the local businesses would come on their day off, especially on a holiday weekend. Someone finally told him they knew somebody, and within the hour, James showed up and repaired his pump. When a man had a stroke and was paralyzed, James was the one who got together some men from the church and went to his house to build a handicap access ramp. I've heard dozens of such stories in the last two days, it's just incredible how constantly busy he was in simply being employed in helping people. So yes, on his lifelong profession of faith as a Christian, and the incredible witness given by so many people showing how he fleshed out that faith with his actions and not merely his words, I have no doubt he gets to hear the words "Well done good and faithful servant."

And his 'devilish grin?' Hooo, boy... That'll go over well at the Great Judgment, a place I'd not like to find myself.

Hate to disappoint you, but you will:

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. (2 Corinthians 5:10)

I think you misunderstood what I said earlier on the matter, because if you thought what you just stated represented my comments, you were mistaken. I said we all would APPEAR before Him, but judgment will be passed over for the Christian when He sees the blood applied. It will be no different for James, he was a devoted Christian man, the fact he was a lodge member never changed that one whit.

Here's a question to ask yourself: if a Christian wrote his own obituary, would he have written that one?

If James had written his, would he have written that one? No, it would have been much shorter, and would have said nothing about any accomplishments. I doubt you'd find a humbler man on God's green earth. And I can say that because I knew him. You say the things you say, because of antimason obsessive compulsive behavior.

His life experiences are all credited to him based on his own merits,

I guess I shouldn't be surprised at this, since you don't seem to mind one bit denigrating the dead. Worse, you don't mind denigrating complete strangers. The personal witness and testimony to Christ were evident to all who knew him. Too bad you weren't included among that group, perhaps you could have spoken less "objectively," and from a more informed basis. As I already said, the obituary, extensive as it was in what it detailed about his life, was inadequate to describe the man.

and his Masonic record seems to be paramount.

Only because your imaginary "objective" point of view is subjectively skewed by your antimason obsessions, and you take even the least mention and magnify it 100 times beyond what was actually said. For example, what I posted from the obituary amounts to barely over 1200 words. Of that 1200, less than 150 were about Masonry.

So much for your "paramount" claims.

Aside from this journey through Masonic thinking, his obituary has only limited relevance to the topic at hand

Hmmm......you've taken the Lion of the Tribe of Judah topic and transposed it from the thread where it started, over to the Perfect Ashlar thread; you also transposed it over to the "Biblical Content" thread; you took the "Racism" thread off on all sorts of tangents about "VSL"; and several other forays in various and sundry places: and NOW you start yammering about what is not on topic??

 

[Skip Sampson]

trying to claim no Christians are in the lodge.

I'm not 'trying' to do that, I am indeed doing just that: No Mason can be a Christian and remain in the Lodge.

the real proof in the pudding where the genuineness of ANY Christian's faith is questioned, is the same place Jesus put the emphasis, where is the fruit.

That is how we can assess, in human terms, whether a man's claim to Christianity is valid; however, don't put the cart before the horse. That a man has a plethora of good works does not mean he's a Christian.

The incredible legacy and witness this man left behind him basically leaves me speechless to try to put it into any words that would be adequate.

Well, I'm glad something accomplished that laudable end. Ah, were there only other ways to do so....

You act like HE put it there. Maybe you didn't catch the fact that he worked for the funeral home after his retirement. The funeral director just happens to be a Mason, it'd be safe to say, he was the one responsible for it being there, for he knew him as a fellow Mason.

Generally funeral homes don't publish obituaries without family involvement, and I've never heard of one that tried to run it past the body in their possession. Some folks write their own in advance, but not many. It would be interesting to see what is written in such instances.

But I knew a Mason had written it based on the Masonic content: Apron Lecture, 24-in-guage lecture, litany of accomplishments to show his good works, reflect well on Masonry, and validate his assured acceptance into the Celestial Lodge; it's all there.

Leave it to you to join your partner in grime and try to speak ill of the dead.

Leave it to you to raise an issue then complain when we respond. I had noted before that using friends and family in support of your views was unwise. Besides, the issue is his obituary, not himself.

found it necessary to go hunting.

Wayne, I always check your references, and for good reason.

I'd have to assume you found the Post & Courier obituary first,

And you'd be wrong.

I'd be embarrassed to have you doing an assessment of my obituary.

Ok. I'll just read it and refrain from comment.

And we're well aware of the position you would take on that matter, being one of the "do-nothing" theological crowd that thinks getting saved is making a profession from the lips, and nothing more.

And you'd be wrong, again.

"Servant of God" as "less relevant" than child of God?

Yes. Being a servant of God does not save you, but being a child of God does indeed. I'm sure there are many who see themselves as servants of God, but do not have that saving relationship with Jesus Christ, which is so essentially necessary to get into heaven, so to speak.

It will be no different for James, he was a devoted Christian man, the fact he was a lodge member never changed that one whit.

I think the latter casts doubt on your assessment of the man.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised at this, since you don't seem to mind one bit denigrating the dead.

As noted before, my initial comments related to his obituary.

The personal witness and testimony to Christ were evident to all who knew him. Too bad you weren't included among that group,

Too bad they weren't clear in his obituary. It's a lesson to the Christian, in that they should write their own obit under the view that it's the last chance they'll have to glorify God and endorse the gospel in this world.

what I posted from the obituary amounts to barely over 1200 words. Of that 1200, less than 150 were about Masonry.

I think the Masonic references went beyond the word count, and do indeed believe they were "paramount." Notice the burial "with Masonic Rites" early on in the obit. Among the statements made during that rite was the Apron Lecture, according to the SC AR. Just a bit of hemlock to leaven the supposedly Biblical veneer of the service. How Masonic. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Rev Wayne]

I had noted before that using friends and family in support of your views was unwise.

I see.....it's unwise to put such information out here, because of the danger from obsessive antimasons who will stop at nothing, even denigration of the dead, to villainize Masonry. Got it.

You aren't fooling anyone, it's easy to see, that reading an obituary which CLEARLY SHOWS an undeniable Christian witness in regard to someone you feel compelled by your obsession to villainize, makes you very uncomfortable.

Besides, the issue is his obituary, not himself.

Really? How is a person's obituary "not about them?"

obituary: a notice of a person's death usually with a short biographical account.

Since it's not the "notice of his death" you are contending about, but the details found in the "biographical account," and since "biographical account" is clearly about a person, your denial is just petty self-defense.

You denigrate the man's accomplishments, bad-mouth the genuineness of his Christian faith and witness, and then claim the issue is not him. How on earth do you put blinders on to the fact that it's HIS obituary, which necessarily pertains to HIM?

RW: And we're well aware of the position you would take on that matter, being one of the "do-nothing" theological crowd that thinks getting saved is making a profession from the lips, and nothing more.
SS: And you'd be wrong, again.

Oh no I wouldn't. You denigrate works at every opportunity, and try to characterize even dedicated Christians as "trying to earn salvation by works." You totally miss SEVERAL exhortations we are given in Scripture in regard to them:


For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. (Matt. 16:27)

You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven. (Matt. 5:14-16)

Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. (Acts 26:19-20)

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Eph. 2:10)

Command those who are rich in this present age not to be haughty, nor to trust in uncertain riches but in the living God, who gives us richly all things to enjoy. Let them do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to give, willing to share, storing up for themselves a good foundation for the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life. (1 Tim. 6:17-19)

Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, (Hebrews 10:23-24)

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. (James 2:14-17)

But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. (James 2:20-24)

Likewise, exhort the young men to be sober-minded, in all things showing yourself to be a pattern of good works; (Titus 2:6-7)

This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men. (Titus 3:8)

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. (Titus 2:11-14)

And with this last one, he adds:

Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you. (Titus 2:15)

So I speak these things to you, since you are as one who has either never heard these things, or who ignores them; I exhort and rebuke the idea that works are not a part of our faith as Christians, and when you despise the idea of works, you despise the Word which you claim to revere.

Sure, your typical spin is, to try to pretend Christians in the lodge do not exist. You do so in the face of the abundant reality that the whopping MAJORITY of them are Christians. I know no Mason who has ever declared, or given any such indication by his actions, that he is trying to "earn" salvation. And from what I see their witness compared to yours, I would have much greater questions about the genuineness of your own faith and witness. I don't know a single man I've met in lodge who would stoop to speaking ill of the dead.

We are "created unto good works," God "prepared beforehand that we should walk in them," we are exhorted to "maintain" them, James says we are "justified by works, and not by faith alone," and that "faith WITHOUT works is DEAD," works are connected with "laying up a good foundation, that we may LAY HOLD on eternal life," we are told to let our light shine before others, so that they can SEE our good works and glorify God, we are told that it was purposed in redemption to create a people "ZEALOUS of good works."

The real mystery here is, how could Skip Sampson have MISSED all this, if he knows anything about the faith he claims to be a part of?

Sure, there's the opposite side of this, there's no denying or discounting that fact. There are those who do their works just to be seen doing them by others. But that's not what we're talking about in regard to this man. The fact of the matter is, had he not died, and had that obituary not been published, MOST of the things listed there about him, I would have had no idea. This modest, unassuming man that I knew only as a good man, and a willing leader, had a Christian witness of doing simple little things for people who needed a hand, a witness largely "below the radar" that by all accounts, was nothing short of incredible.


I've heard it said, that the greatest joy is to do a good deed by stealth, and have it found out by accident. And the things which this man did, "in secret" as it were, as the Lord Jesus Himself has said, is now being "proclaimed from the housetops," i.e., being made known, and particularly by those who knew him and those who were recipients of the Christian love he showed.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Being a servant of God does not save you, but being a child of God does indeed. I'm sure there are many who see themselves as servants of God, but do not have that saving relationship with Jesus Christ, which is so essentially necessary to get into heaven, so to speak.

Your error lies in trying to separate between being a child of God, and being a child of God who also happens to be a member of the lodge. That is a false dichotomy upon which many antimason claims fail to hit their mark.

Not only that, James first became a child of God when as a young child he gave his heart to Jesus Christ. Later, following the admonitions of Scripture, he became a servant of God as well. This is not the false dichotomy you try to set up, that one is either one or the other. Those who truly ARE servants of God, ARE children of God as well--and not BECAUSE of the fact they are servants, but because they were children of God FIRST.

I think there are a lot of pertinent Scriptures on that issue you fail to consider as well. Here are a couple of them:

“What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work today in the vineyard.’

“‘I will not,’ he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.

“Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, ‘I will, sir,’ but he did not go.

“Which of the two did what his father wanted?”
“The first,” they answered.
Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. (Matt. 21:28-32)

The true servant was the one who went and did as asked, not the one who SAID he would, but then did nothing.

Behold! My Servant whom I have chosen,
My Beloved in whom My soul is well pleased! (Matt. 12:18)

Jesus Himself came as a servant. Jesus is our model for how we should live the Christian life; since the model He Himself lived was that of a servant, how is it you make it out to be wrong to imitate the model He gave us?

 

[Skip Sampson]

How is a person's obituary "not about them?"

The issue was the obituary and what it says about the person, especially as it supported the salvation you claimed was so clear. Written by a Mason, it reflected what Masons would consider to be important and included enough references to Masonry to make other Masons happy. You yourself noted that the man would have written a different obituary than that which appeared.

Sure, your typical spin is, to try to pretend Christians in the lodge do not exist.

Neither pretend nor spin, but state bluntly: No Christian could remain a Mason. I've made the statement in various ways and have indicated via Masonic documentation the basis upon which it is made. That you disagree does not make me wrong nor my conclusions incorrect. It is the basis of the nastiness of your posts, though, which I think we all understand.

The real mystery here is, how could Skip Sampson have MISSED all this, if he knows anything about the faith he claims to be a part of?

And you'd be wrong again. The real mystery is how you can continue to accuse me of positions that I have not taken. I used to think that was just you behaving like a typical Mason, but more and more I'm thinking it's because you truly do not comprehend the points made. You are simply incapable of dealing intellectually with those issues, and grasping the complexities involved. Both answers make sense, so it's probably a combination of the two. Either way, your responses do you credit as a Mason, but not as a Christian. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Rev Wayne]

The issue was the obituary and what it says about the person

Well, at least you admit it THIS time around, instead of claiming it wasn't about him at all.

Written by a Mason

False. Where did you get that information? You see the word Mason, you start seeing red, and suddenly EVERYTHING you see goes Masonic, the tilt light goes o.f.f. in your head, and you start shooting your bull at everything in the china shop?

The obituary I posted was written by a female family member--hardly qualifies as "written by a Mason."

it reflected what Masons would consider to be important and included enough references to Masonry to make other Masons happy.

There's the obsession kicking in again. This obituary reflected the things EVERY obituary ordinarily features--including organizations to which the person may have belonged--in this case, Freemasonry.

You yourself noted that the man would have written a different obituary than that which appeared.

And I will add to that: I don't know ANYBODY who would have written an obituary like that, Mason or not.

For someone to write their OWN obituary, and write one like that, they would have to be the biggest egotist in the world. Like I already stated about the man, he was humble to the point that the obituary caught me totally by surprise. I knew him to be a good man, yes; but one who knew as many people and helped as many people as he apparently did? Only those who lived here all their lives would know that. And they did, and the writer of the obituary knew it, too.

No Christian could remain a Mason.

False. There are MANY Christian Masons. You are merely stating a false opinion of Skip Sampson. The fact that millions of them remain Christians, is the surest indication your claim is your own, and is false. The opinion of one antimason versus millions of Christians who are, have been, and remain Masons, and who, like so many others I've conversed with both in person and online, probably were Christians long before they were Masons. Wow, who to believe, them, or an opinionated antimason?

I've made the statement in various ways and have indicated via Masonic documentation the basis upon which it is made.

No you haven't. You have indicated the various ways Skip Sampson can express his false personal opinion. And you can state all of that seven ways from sundown, and it will still be just as FALSE.

That you disagree does not make me wrong nor my conclusions incorrect.

Of course not. The fact that you are incorrect makes you incorrect. Thanks for clearing that up.

You set yourself up as judge and arbiter of who is and who is not a Christian. In doing so, you clearly go against biblical injunctions NOT to do so.

The real mystery is how you can continue to accuse me of positions that I have not taken.

Baloney. I haven't "accused" you of anything at all, really, YOU are the one who started yammering about "good works" and falsely going o.f.f. the deep end about how this dedicated Christian man was trying to "earn his salvation," and making all sorts of comments about Masons in order to try to make them fit the description you wish to portray of them with this thread. Somebody needed to set your thinking straight on the matter.

I used to think that was just you behaving like a typical Mason, but more and more I'm thinking it's because you truly do not comprehend the points made.

Fact is, you seem incapable of understanding the implications of the things you claim--especially when it comes to denigration of the dead. And you always have given that impression.

It is the basis of the nastiness of your posts,

Wow, you come here speaking ill of the dead, making statements that go against the biblical witness, and then you claim I'M the one exhibiting "nastiness" in my posts. I've seen projection like this from you many times, but this one is a classic.

You are simply incapable of dealing intellectually with those issues, and grasping the complexities involved.

I've never seen anything from you that could be described as "complex" at all--much less, "intellectual." Which makes it pretty humorous to see you try to claim it for anything you post.

And "incapable of dealing intellectually," coming from someone who makes staircases out of ladders, rectangular solids out of cubes, and marrying prostitutes as a plan favored by God, I find your claim to even comprehend what it means to "deal intellectually," to be a real hoot.

But since you seem to think your thoughts are beyond the simplicity they have generally exhibited on these threads, by all means enlighten us on the subject, Skip, instead of making generalized comments that do nothing but illustrate the bent for ad hominem that has been part and parcel of your tenure here. Show us these "complexities" and let's take a look at them, since you stuck your foot in it by claiming them, rather than simply admitting the SIMPLE fact that you went the cowan's path of denigrating the dead as an allowable (in your world, anyway) facet of your obsession for denigrating Masonry.

Really, I'm quite surprised at the directions you have taken since coming to CF. I really used to think you dealt with issues at a more rational level than any antimason I'd come across. But some of the positions you have taken since coming here, are really more illustrative of something Mike Gentry would come up with. And the level of exchange in which you have engaged, making one irrational claim after another, and then fighting tooth and nail to defend it even when it's been shot down from every angle you can come up with, rather than admit your error, is really more reminiscent of W.D. Rice than anyone else I can think of. And in case you hadn't gathered so already, neither comparison reflects very well upon you in comparison to the level of discourse which you used to maintain.

 

[Skip Sampson]

Well, at least you admit it THIS time around, instead of claiming it wasn't about him at all.

Wrong again; you should try reading the post before you respond to it. The obituary is the issue; it's contents are part of that issue. He is not the issue.

False. Where did you get that information?

Got it from a highly unreliable source:

You act like HE put it there. Maybe you didn't catch the fact that he worked for the funeral home after his retirement. The funeral director just happens to be a Mason, it'd be safe to say, he was the one responsible for it being there, for he knew him as a fellow Mason.

I should be more careful with that source. And you should remember what you've written, if that's not asking too much.

This obituary reflected the things EVERY obituary ordinarily features

I don't think most obituaries tell of Masonic rites at the gravesites, nor Masonic connections, nor direct and indirect references to Masonic concepts, and so forth.

And I will add to that: I don't know ANYBODY who would have written an obituary like that, Mason or not.

But didn't you just said that you knew who wrote his obit? Don't you think... oh, never mind. Asked and answered.

You are merely stating a false opinion of Skip Sampson.

No, that's a genuine opinion. He claimed it, right out in the open on this forum. I can document it.

No you haven't.

Sure I have.

You set yourself up as judge and arbiter of who is and who is not a Christian. In doing so, you clearly go against biblical injunctions NOT to do so.

Untrue. You yourself indicated that the things a man does may be used to asses his claims to be a Christian. I do the same, just come to a different conclusion.

Somebody needed to set your thinking straight on the matter.

Maybe someone will, but so far, no one has. It's not for lack of effort, but for lack of reason.

I've never seen anything from you that could be described as "complex" at all--much less, "intellectual."

Yes, we know. I rest my case.

Show us these "complexities" and let's take a look at them,

You already have seen them and failed to understand them. Just re-read any thread I've commented on and you'll find them.

But some of the positions you have taken since coming here, are really more illustrative of something Mike Gentry would come up with.

Thank you. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Gee, the more you talk, the more obsessive you get about this. And it's easy to tell, because every time you get obsessive you go postal, and every time you go postal, you're all over the map, but nowhere anyone would want to go:

RW: You act like HE put it there. Maybe you didn't catch the fact that he worked for the funeral home after his retirement. The funeral director just happens to be a Mason, it'd be safe to say, he was the one responsible for it being there, for he knew him as a fellow Mason.
SS: I should be more careful with that source. And you should remember what you've written, if that's not asking too much.

You should remember the full context, if that's not asking too much. Any rational person would know good and well that in the remark to which you refer, I was referring to the Square & Compasses logo on the website, and not to the obituary itself. Here is the original context, just to PROVE how sadly you MISREAD this:

SS: What is clear is the importance of Masonry in his life, as evidenced by the funeral home obituary featuring a large square and compasses next to his picture.
RW: You act like HE put it there. Maybe you didn't catch the fact that he worked for the funeral home after his retirement. The funeral director just happens to be a Mason, it'd be safe to say, he was the one responsible for it being there, for he knew him as a fellow Mason.

Now, it's easy to see that by "it" I was not referring to the obituary--if you're anybody but Skip Sampson, apparently--because if we follow YOUR scenario, and make this about the obituary, you'd have the funeral home putting an obituary there because "he knew him as a fellow Mason," as if only Masons get obituaries. But that apparently is exactly the way you read my reply, for you to be acting like the obituary was meant rather than the logo. Nice little error this time too, it's really priceless.

And yes, the funeral home director put the logo on the website, it's HIS website, DUH. Or maybe you didn't catch the fact that it's not part of the obituary, but is connected to the GUEST BOOK???? How much attention did you even pay to ANYTHING, once the square and compasses had you so blinded with obsessive rage?

And I will add to that: I don't know ANYBODY who would have written an obituary like that, Mason or not.
But didn't you just said that you knew who wrote his obit? Don't you think... oh, never mind.

Of their OWN, Slick. Which you knew, of course, you're just being Skip.

You yourself indicated that the things a man does may be used to asses his claims to be a Christian.

"His claims to be a Christian?" No, and I defy you to show anyplace where I said any such thing. This has been about his obituary, and since he didn't write it, how on earth can it be about "his claims to be a Christian?"

Just one more example of the obsessive and irrational level of discourse you're still coming up with on this thing.

What I said was, "The personal witness and testimony to Christ were evident to all who knew him." You never met him, so you know nothing of his witness and testimony. What you do is completely despicable, passing judgment on a dead man you never met.

Somebody needed to set your thinking straight on the matter
Maybe someone will, but so far, no one has.

Well, at least you seem to acquiesce that your thinking isn't straight. That's a start, I suppose. But you've still got a lo-onng way to go.

 

[Skip Sampson]

I was referring to the Square & Compasses logo on the website, and not to the obituary itself.

Thanks for the clarification.

And yes, the funeral home director put the logo on the website

Yes, right beside his picture.

Of their OWN

Thanks for the further clarification.

"His claims to be a Christian?"

The "his" was not referring to the deceased as should have been clear from the context. You are basing your view on him as a Christian based largely on his works. I have no problem making such assessments.

This has been about his obituary,

Glad you finally recognized that.

Well, at least you seem to acquiesce that your thinking isn't straight.

Nope, just noting that some have thought that way and have acted upon that perception.

You denigrate works at every opportunity, and try to characterize even dedicated Christians as "trying to earn salvation by works."

I should have pointed out the errors in that comment from you. First, I am showing where Masonry teaches a salvation by works theology, not where Christians are implementing it. Masons learn nothing else in the lodge but how good works, self improvement and being a mason will make them acceptable to the GAOTU, whoever that might be, and the obituary you passed along is in perfect consonance with that Masonic viewpoint.

Second, the relationship of faith and works is amply demonstrated in Eph 2:8-10:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

This specifically rejects the Masonic view of salvation so apparent in its rituals. It also highlights the fact that 'works' are the ones God has called us to, not the ones we decide for ourselves.

As to your friend, you conclude he was a Christian by what he did; I conclude the opposite by what he did. You hold his works were because he was a Christian; I hold that his works were because he wanted to be a good Mason. Who of us is right is unimportant to him, as he's already where his decisions in this life placed him.

Finally, whoever wrote that obit missed a great opportunity. She could have written simply about the tremendous power of God, and what a man can do with that power. Instead, she chose to write a litany of good works larded with Masonic references. Lesson to the Christian: write your own obituary; it's the last witnessing chance you'll have. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Rev Wayne]

You are basing your view on him as a Christian based largely on his works.

Nope. I had already stated, and I repeated in the last post:

"The personal witness and testimony to Christ were evident to all who knew him."

Nope. No "works" mentioned there, what I said was not what you said.

First, I am showing where Masonry teaches a salvation by works theology, not where Christians are implementing it.

And in doing so, you are denigrating a Christian and the account of the ways he implemented it. You try to deny it, but it's true.

And the reason you make the error has already been pointed out to you: you misinterpret matters because of the false presuppositions which you automatically bring to the table. The MAIN one, of course, is the assumption that Masons cannot be Christians. With you the assumption is SO foregone, that you treat of every man who joins the lodge, as though he were not a member of any religion at all, and is coming to the lodge to be spoon-fed everything found there. Added to THAT false supposition, your false claims in relation to "works," and your error is thereby magnified and compounded.

The fact is, most Masons are Christians, and I have found there to be a general understanding among them that is no different than with you or anyone else, that salvation is by faith, not by works.

You see, your error is, you are pretending the Mason has yet to come to a saving faith in Jesus Christ, when the fact of the matter is, most Masons ARE Christians, and thus are NOT approaching Masonry in the manner you describe, as though they are trying to be "saved by Masonry." That's patently absurd and ridiculous, and is the primary reason, though not the only reason, that you keep going around in circles but never quite catching your tail.

I can't help what your faulty view of salvation is according to the myopic way you treat Masonic texts. That's a Skip Sampson anomaly that has no bearing upon any of this. I know no Mason who views or treats the texts you try to cite as "proof" in the way you do. The commonly stated Masonic view speaks of "a firm reliance upon divine providence," which of course you ignore at every turn, in favor of isolating and mutilating individual out-of-context sliced-and-diced proof-texts.

Second, the relationship of faith and works is amply demonstrated in Eph 2:8-10:

"Amply?" You cite one proof-text and ignore ALL the rest of Scripture on the matter, and dare to call that "amply?"

Again, you are treating scripture in the same myopic manner with which you approach Masonry--and probably anything else, for that matter. That's not all that Scripture has to say on the matter of works, and you know it. I've posted more than once your own errors in figuratively excising so much of Scripture by pretending it does not bear upon the subject of works, when in fact it does so very DIRECTLY:

Command those who are rich in this present age not to be haughty, nor to trust in uncertain riches but in the living God, who gives us richly all things to enjoy. Let them do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to give, willing to share, storing up for themselves a good foundation for the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life. (1 Tim. 6:17-19)

But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does. (James 1:22-25)

How is it you miss the fact that being a mere hearer, as you insist, is a DECEPTION?

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. (James 2:14-17)

How do you miss that "faith by itself. . . is DEAD?"

But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. (James 2:20-24)

The fact is, if it was JUST faith, God would have stopped Abraham long before the point where He did finally stop him. In fact, He could have stopped him the next morning after He gave him the command, because Abraham was certainly showing his faith when he arose early that day and started packing. No, it's significant that he was not stopped until the point at which he was actually in the middle of carrying through on the thing commanded.

Paul wrote about justification by faith, sure, but if we do not take the admonition of James, we have an incomplete picture of the matter. Or do you just ignore it or treat it lightly when James says we are also "justified by works?" And do you pay it no attention when he says that "faith without works is DEAD????"

Sorry, Skip, you can keep your dead faith, I'd much rather pay heed to God's Word in its entirety, and not just the parts that appeal to the itching ears of those who come to the Word accepting only the parts they like to hear.

You hold his works were because he was a Christian; I hold that his works were because he wanted to be a good Mason.

And you hold falsely. The man's witness and testimony were of his present possession in this life, of the salvation found in Jesus Christ. You know NOTHING about that, because you've got your head in a cloud of deception about "what Skip Sampson obsessively decides about Masonry." The fact of the matter is, despite your false claims about "what Masonry teaches," Masons don't seem to be getting what you claim they are being taught--which ought to be a strong indication to you, that "what you think Masonry teaches" is the point at which the error occurs. And your treatment of this good Christian man's obituary, and the false way you apply the things found there, to further your continued apparent career choice of Mason-bashing, is reprehensible, to say the least.

Who of us is right is unimportant to him, as he's already where his decisions in this life placed him.

Yes: as I pointed out, there was no doubt about this man's salvation, having placed his trust in Jesus Christ as a young boy, having "held to his profession without wavering," and having "stored up for himself a good foundation for the time to come, that he may lay hold on eternal life." He was faithful in all that Jesus Christ did for him in salvation, by seeking throughout his life to be faithful to the instructions he found in the Holy Bible, the rule and guide of his FAITH, especially the instructions it gives about doing good to others--all of which was a pattern, not of "works," but of faithfulness.

O that we all could say as much when we have crossed the bar.

She could have written simply about the tremendous power of God, and what a man can do with that power.

Actually, she did. Sorry you missed it when you went postal upon seeing the Square and Compasses.

Instead, she chose to write a litany of good works larded with Masonic references.

None of the Masonic references were in any way connected to the things said about things he did--though you probably never noticed it in your obsessive ranting and raving.

It was through this employment, he was able to show the love he possessed for God and others through his own special character, coming when needed, and always doing the best he could for those who placed their trust in the Herndon family.

He was a lifelong member of Bethel United Methodist Church, Ruffin Circuit, since he was a young child where he gave of himself as a true servant of God.

He was also part of the Youth group, having served along with Cathy through a passion for the youth's development as they each grew in their own individual Christianity.

He served organizations throughout the Lowcountry because of two traits people admired about him - an unselfish desire to help or simply because others called upon him.

Fact is, James would have done these things whether he was a lodge member or not. None of this was attributable to "trying to earn salvation" or to his involvement in Masonry--nor does the article in any way attribute any of the good things he did, to his involvement in Masonry. He just loved God, and loved others. What he did simply arose from his living out of those two loves. Are we not called to do so as the primary commandment of Christ?

 

[Skip Sampson]

you misinterpret matters because of the false presuppositions which you automatically bring to the table.

Nope, I just show what Masonic documentation teaches and let conclusions proceed from those facts.

The MAIN one, of course, is the assumption that Masons cannot be Christians.

It's not an assumption; it's a conclusion based on review of the facts as contained in Masonic ritual.

you treat of every man who joins the lodge, as though he were not a member of any religion at all, and is coming to the lodge to be spoon-fed everything found there.

I'm sure many of them belong to a religion. Some may even be Christians, and these can be identified by the fact that they either did not complete the degrees or left soon after becoming a Master Mason.

Bear in mind that many GL's insist that the man is forming a partnership with God as he kneels in front of Masonry's altar. He is told that divine truth will be revealed to him as a Mason and he is faced with many things he may have seen in Sunday School, not realizing that they are all perverted by the Masonic explanations. And he is expected to improve himself in Masonry so that God will dwell within him, as opposed to the Christian view that God doesn't need any such preparatory work and that real improvement comes after the saving experience. These are among the many facts that support my view that no Christian could be a Mason, and therefore that to be a Mason is to not be a Christian.

You like to keep claiming that I am denigrating your friend. Bear in mind that you brought him into this discussion, claiming that there was no doubt of his salvation based on all he did. Since you raised the man, I responded that his long experience in Masonry, performing the utterly false and spiritual corrosive Masonic rituals, is clear and convincing proof that he was not a Christian. He was a Mason trying to please God by his acts.

The fact is, most Masons are Christians,

I take the position that none are, based on the facts noted above.

I have found there to be a general understanding among them that is no different than with you or anyone else, that salvation is by faith, not by works.

Too bad Masonry doesn't teach that.

You see, your error is, you are pretending the Mason has yet to come to a saving faith in Jesus Christ,

Untrue. I 'pretend' nothing, but bluntly state that no Christian could be a Mason.

I can't help what your faulty view of salvation is according to the myopic way you treat Masonic texts.

Untrue. I quote them directly.

I know no Mason who views or treats the texts you try to cite as "proof" in the way you do.

Immaterial. They say what they say and that most Masons don't bother reading or understanding them is not germane.

The commonly stated Masonic view speaks of "a firm reliance upon divine providence,"

Funny you should bring that up. Here's what your GL has to say:

The Mosaic Pavement is emblematical of human life, checked with good and evil; the beautiful border which surrounds it is emblematical of those manifold blessings and comforts which surround us, and which we hope to obtain by a faithful reliance on Divine Providence, which is hieroglyphically represented by the blazing star in the center. (SC GL, AR, 2010, pg. 94)

Notice the "Divine Providence" is represented by the blazing star. And what is the blazing star?

The Blazing Star is said by Webb to be "commemorative of the star which appeared to guide the wise men of the East to the place of our Savior's nativity." This, which is one of the ancient interpretations of the symbol, being considered as too sectarian in its character, and unsuitable to the universal religion of Masonry, has been omitted since the meeting of the Grand Lecturers at Baltimore, in 1842. (AR, pg. 95)

So Webb's equation of Divine Providence and our Savior has been removed from Masonry. Your GL's use of "Divine Providence" no longer has a connection to Jesus and actually refers the member back to whatever concept of God he may have. This is a perfect example of an apparent Masonic teaching being far different from its actual meaning. Also ponder the reference to "the universal religion of Masonry;" guess the GL agrees with me that Masonry is a religion. Thanks for bringing it up.

"Amply?" You cite one proof-text and ignore ALL the rest of Scripture on the matter, and dare to call that "amply?"

Sure do. If you ever learn any proper exegesis, you'll learn that clear texts outweigh the vague. The Eph verses are completely consistent with John 3:16-19, and both are about as clear as you can get. You like quoting James, but his view is that a true salvation will be shown by good works, not vice versa. He kept the sequence strait: first salvation, then the good works, as does at least one church group with which you may be familiar:

Article IX—Of the Justification of Man
We are accounted righteous before God only for the merit of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, by faith, and not for our own works or deservings. Wherefore, that we are justified by faith, only, is a most wholesome doctrine, and very full of comfort.
Article X—Of Good Works
Although good works, which are the fruits of faith, and follow after justification, cannot put away our sins, and endure the severity of God's judgment; yet are they pleasing and acceptable to God in Christ, and spring out of a true and lively faith, insomuch that by them a lively faith may be as evidently known as a tree is discerned by its fruit. (The Articles of Religion of the Methodist Church

Paul wrote about justification by faith, sure, but if we do not take the admonition of James, we have an incomplete picture of the matter.

No, we don't. The complete picture is this: faith is a matter of salvation; works is a matter of obedience. As Eph proclaims, we are saved so that we can do the works of God.

The man's witness and testimony were of his present possession in this life, of the salvation found in Jesus Christ.

One wouldn't know that from his obit. His Masonic connections far outweighed anything that might indicate what you say.

Masons don't seem to be getting what you claim they are being taught

Thus showing that I'm more familiar with Masonry's teachings then they are.

there was no doubt about this man's salvation, having placed his trust in Jesus Christ as a young boy, having "held to his profession without wavering," and having "stored up for himself a good foundation for the time to come, that he may lay hold on eternal life." He was faithful in all that Jesus Christ did for him in salvation, by seeking throughout his life to be faithful to the instructions he found in the Holy Bible, the rule and guide of his FAITH, especially the instructions it gives about doing good to others--all of which was a pattern, not of "works," but of faithfulness.

To bad his obit didn't bother making such points. Which was the issue all along.

Actually, she did.

It must have gotten edited out, as such commentary certainly was not in the obit.

Are we not called to do so as the primary commandment of Christ?

Jesus called upon his disciples to love one another, as he loved them. The special love of Jesus should be the hallmark of those who believe in him. Some want to expand that command to apply to the same love for everyone, but I don't agree with that. It's a special love among believers. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Nope, I just show what Masonic documentation teaches and let conclusions proceed from those facts.

Yeah--YOUR conclusions, and FALSE ones.

It's not an assumption; it's a conclusion based on review of the facts as contained in Masonic ritual.

We've seen your comedy of errors trying to interpret ritual. And you can't even stay on point with it either, substituting instead materials from MSA that you call "educational materials," which are not even a part of the education section of their website.

Some may even be Christians, and these can be identified by the fact that they either did not complete the degrees or left soon after becoming a Master Mason.

There's the false assumption again.

These are among the many facts that support my view that no Christian could be a Mason, and therefore that to be a Mason is to not be a Christian

.

And your representation of these things being false, your conclusion is therefore false as well.

Since you raised the man, I responded that his long experience in Masonry, performing the utterly false and spiritual corrosive Masonic rituals, is clear and convincing proof that he was not a Christian.

Which of course, given your obsession with Freemasonry, and your false conclusion by which you make the remark, is the surest indication of your denigration of the man. Your supposition about Masons can't be Christians appears to be the biggest error that keeps getting in the way of your saying anything that is the least bit relevant or true.

The fact is, most Masons are Christians,
I take the position that none are, based on the facts noted above.

They are not "facts," they are merely Skip Sampson's false claims.

Too bad Masonry doesn't teach that.

Too bad your claims that it does, don't appear to be substantiated by what Masons themselves say on the matter.

I 'pretend' nothing, but bluntly state that no Christian could be a Mason.

A blunt error is still an error.

I quote them directly.

And interpret them incorrectly.

They say what they say and that most Masons don't bother reading or understanding them is not germane.

You missed the point. They understand them exactly right. It is your understanding that is skewed, as evidenced by the fact that no Mason believes what you say they are being taught. Pretty self-evident.

So Webb's equation of Divine Providence and our Savior has been removed from Masonry.

Have you checked the statement here against what you find in our ritual? Silly question, it's pretty obvious you haven't, or you would know better than what you just claimed. It's just another of those instances where someone has slipped something into the monitor which is more of personal wish than a reflection of the ritual.

All that the statement says in the monitor is that since the "meeting of the Grand Lecturers at Baltimore," whatever that entailed, it has been omitted. I don't know whose ritual this is referring to, but it certainly isn't ours. This comment appears to be making a commentary upon Masonry elsewhere. Ours does not reflect the omission.

Your GL's use of "Divine Providence" no longer has a connection to Jesus and actually refers the member back to whatever concept of God he may have.

Sorry, but the ritual retains it, you can't make such assumptions based purely on the commentary remark you found in AR. And you forget anyway, AR affirms that the God of Masonry in SC is the God of the Bible.

The small hill near Mount Moriah can be clearly identified by the most convincing analogies as being no other than Mount Calvary. Thus Mount Calvary was a small hill; it was situated in a westerly direction from the Temple, and near Mount Moriah; It was on the direct road
from Jerusalem to Joppa, and is thus the very spot where a weary brother, traveling on the road, would find it convenient to sit down to rest and refresh himself; it was outside the gate of the Temple; and lastly, there are several caves, or clefts in the rocks, in the neighborhood, one of which, it will be remembered, was, subsequently to the time of this tradition, used as the sepulchre of our Lord. The Christian Mason will readily perceive the peculiar character of the symbolism which this identification of the spot on which the great truth of the resurrection was unfolded in both systems—the Masonic and the Christian—must suggest. (SC Ahiman Rezon, p. 149-50)

It Is hardly necessary to say that the letter G, wherever spoken of in Masonry as a symbol, is merely a modern substitution for the Hebrew letter yod, ~, which was the initial of Jehovah, the tetragammaton, and, therefore, constantly used as a symbol of Deity.

"Amply?" You cite one proof-text and ignore ALL the rest of Scripture on the matter, and dare to call that "amply?"
Sure do

So it's TRUE, you do your exegesis by proof-texting. Never thought you'd admit it though.

The complete picture is this: faith is a matter of salvation; works is a matter of obedience. As Eph proclaims, we are saved so that we can do the works of God.

And as James clarifies on the matter for you, as long as you don't simply ignore it, the PROOF that faith is genuine IS FOUND in the works. Faith without works is DEAD faith. Now, if you prefer a dead faith, you could at least keep it to yourself, instead of falsely trying to teach that you have the biblical witness backing you up on it.

The man's witness and testimony were of his present possession in this life, of the salvation found in Jesus Christ.
One wouldn't know that from his obit.

Thanks for confirming what I've already said, that an obituary simply cannot do justice in describing the Christian witness and testimony of this man.

Masons don't seem to be getting what you claim they are being taught
Thus showing that I'm more familiar with Masonry's teachings then they are.

No, showing that you have a completely DIFFERENT idea than is being taught, and thus your claim is false.

To bad his obit didn't bother making such points.

Too bad you don't pay attention to things already covered, otherwise you wouldn't be making the same already-refuted remarks. Obituaries are simply not designed to tell everything about a person. Read any CHRISTIAN'S obituary, and you will not find the things you insist upon, included in any way either. Obituaries are merely a microcosm of what a person's life consisted of, not a witness of how the person came to faith in Christ. Most obituaries do not go into detail of how a person came to Christ; in fact, most of them do not go into detail either, on what it means, or what it meant to the deceased, to be a Christian--which is definitely what you strangely appear to be insisting an obituary should do. Most of them simply mention the barest facts that can be stated, such as, they belonged to the ________ Baptist Church, etc.

Demanding the things you demand of an obituary, smacks of pure ignorance of what obituaries generally try to say.

Actually, she did.
It must have gotten edited out, as such commentary certainly was not in the obit.

No, you just missed it--again.

Are we not called to do so as the primary commandment of Christ?
. . .It's a special love among believers.

Exactly. And that's exactly what I was speaking of, and exactly what was spoken of when the obituary said he "gave of himself as a true servant of God," and spoke of "the love he possessed for God and others."

 

[Skip Sampson]

Have you checked the statement here against what you find in our ritual?

Let's be clear: Do you claim that the Blazing Star in SC ritual is defined just as Webb originally had it? Your AR says it doesn't.

AR affirms that the God of Masonry in SC is the God of the Bible.

Untrue.

A Belief in God. This constitutes the sole creed of a Mason-at least, the only creed that he is required to profess. But such a profession is essentially and absolutely necessary, because, without a belief in a superintending Power, with the inevitable deduction from the purity and holiness of such a Being, that sin will be punished and virtue rewarded, there would be no sanction to a moral law, for the athiest would have no motive to keep a promise or to preserve an obligation. (AR, pg. 85)

Like all GL's in the U.S., belief in any God will suffice. To affirm the God of the Bible as it's own would fly in the face of Masonic throught throughout the GL system.

So it's TRUE, you do your exegesis by proof-texting.

No, it's true the verse I quoted was ample to prove the point.

Thanks for confirming what I've already said, that an obituary simply cannot do justice in describing the Christian witness and testimony of this man.

It could have; no one bothered to do so.

Obituaries are merely a microcosm of what a person's life consisted of, not a witness of how the person came to faith in Christ.

His certainly didn't. As I said: the Christian should write his own obit, and avoid the mistakes his survivors made. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Let's be clear: Do you claim that the Blazing Star in SC ritual is defined just as Webb originally had it? Your AR says it doesn't.

Let's be clearer: I didn't say "AR."

AR affirms that the God of Masonry in SC is the God of the Bible.
Untrue.

A Belief in God. This constitutes the sole creed of a Mason-at least, the only creed that he is required to profess. But such a profession is essentially and absolutely necessary, because, without a belief in a superintending Power, with the inevitable deduction from the purity and holiness of such a Being, that sin will be punished and virtue rewarded, there would be no sanction to a moral law, for the athiest would have no motive to keep a promise or to preserve an obligation. (AR, pg. 85)

There's yer problem right there, you're quoting from p. 85. Perhaps you don't pay attention to such things (which is strange, since you CLAIM to check out everything I post), but what I quoted came from pages 149-51--p. 151 being the number for the second quote, which was inadvertently omitted. What you don't seem to get is, what you quoted does not CONTRADICT what I stated, it's just the same thing stated in GENERAL terms. But those general terms, as anyone can see, get fleshed out by the time you get to the pages I cited. Seems to me you would have expected that, since the work you are citing, the Manual of the Lodge, is progressive. Not too difficult a task, except for you apparently, to understand that the material you find in the EA degree is less elucidatory than what you find in the MM from which I cited.

the verse I quoted was ample to prove the point

Apparently not, since you are still ignoring what James wrote about works being a part of the faith that justifies.

It could have; no one bothered to do so.

Okay, Sherlock, show me an obituary that pontificates upon how a person came to faith, delineates between faith and works, and goes into great detail on all the matters you insist upon. Fact is, you can't do it, you're just yammering as always. You'll need a ladder to get down o.f.f. that horse. Knowing you, you'll call it a staircase, though.

Obituaries are merely a microcosm of what a person's life consisted of, not a witness of how the person came to faith in Christ.
His certainly didn't.

But the content certainly DID present a microcosm of a life lived in faithfulness to Christ AFTER coming to faith.

 

[Skip Sampson]

Let's be clearer:

Please do so. I'll repeat the question:

Do you claim that the Blazing Star in SC ritual is defined just as Webb originally had it?

You have implied, if not outright stated, that the Blazing Star in SC Masonry is defined in ritual just as Webb has it, as a reference to the star seen at the time of Jesus' birth. So, is the AR wrong in claiming it's no longer done so?

show me an obituary

Here's one:

xx went home to be with Jesus on xxx. Son, brother, husband, father; but most of all, a Child of God. All the good he accomplished in this life he attributed to the power of God working through him; he claimed only the mistakes as his own. His favorite Bible verse was 1 Timothy 1:15, and it was his last wish that all people would come to the same saving knowledge of Jesus Christ that made his life worth living.

Cordially, Skip.