Mary's sinlessness

[All4Christ]

Now you all are getting back around to the question I thought of making a new thread for earlier, then didn't because it seemed to be answered. I think I will always have questions.

Following with interest.

But I'm thinking of the Theotokos as a 3-year-old, and of Saints that displayed what we might call theosis during life?

Yet those Saints still desire to repent, don't they? And still must deal with demonic attacks/temptations, even if there might be nothing in them still that inclines them to be desiring the thing they are tempted with?

I guess I am asking - what exactly DOES theosis look like?

Not trying to interrupt. I'm trying to understand as well. Thank you both!

A question I think about often when I consider theosis

 

[Maryslittleflower]

you're not defining sin the way the early Fathers did or how the Scripture does I think.

I think PanDeVida is saying maybe that we can't avoid venial sin without a special grace..

 

[Maryslittleflower]

Pande,
Your idea of original sin is not Orthodox. The Father's taught that Mary descended from a holy lineage of successive generations, hence Christ is the root of Jesse through Mary and her descendants.
The Fathers' taught that Eve's disobedience and fall came from being seduced by the serpent and this disobedience was undone by Mary''s obedience when she answered to the angels words; Let it be according to thy word". In both instances free will played a role.

Catholics don't believe that Mary was forced to say yes to the Angel. She just didn't have concupiscence standing in the way. Similarly like how Eve didn't have concupiscence in the way either.. we also don't believe she didn't need a Saviour, nor that she didn't advance spiritually during life. My (Catholic) priest put it like her soul was filled with grace but her capacity for grace increased during her life, as she continued to make acts of love towards God.

 

[Maryslittleflower]

and I would say, infants who are aborted never committed any sin, yet are still born in sin. so it is very possible and happens all the time.

they don't have use of reason though?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I can't seem to find a conclusive answer.. do the Orthodox believe that Our Blessed Mother never sinned? Or do they believe that she sinned but the sins were cleansed at the Annunciation?

(only read the OP).
what about the atonement? the blood of Jesus that cleansed everyone who is saved of sin, for all time ?

 

[ArmyMatt]

I think PanDeVida is saying maybe that we can't avoid venial sin without a special grace..

maybe, but Pan still did not explain sin in a way that is consistent with the Fathers or Scripture who were much more holistic than was described in that post.

 

[ArmyMatt]

they don't have use of reason though?

right, but I don't see your point here

 

[Maryslittleflower]

(only read the OP).
what about the atonement? the blood of Jesus that cleansed everyone who is saved of sin, for all time ?

Both Orthodox and Catholics believe that the Blood of Jesus cleansed Mary, but it seems, at different times (Catholic: at her Conception, Orthodox: later in life). Both believe she needed a Saviour. In the Catholic view, God's grace and merits from the Cross prevented her from sinning, without depriving her or free will.

 

[Maryslittleflower]

right, but I don't see your point here

well my point is that they don't commit personal sins not because of a special grace, but simply through lacking a use of reason which is necessary to fully use the will. If Our Lady didn't commit a venial sin later in life, that is from grace, since she of course had use of reason

 

[ArmyMatt]

well my point is that they don't commit personal sins not because of a special grace, but simply through lacking a use of reason which is necessary to fully use the will. If Our Lady didn't commit a venial sin later in life, that is from grace, since she of course had use of reason

but that point is not what I was disputing.

 

[~Anastasia~]

(only read the OP).
what about the atonement? the blood of Jesus that cleansed everyone who is saved of sin, for all time ?

The Virgin Mary still would have needed Christ, either way.

To think otherwise, even if she was sinless, would technically be "works salvation" wouldn't it?

Every human from Adam and Eve on need Christ, regardless if they committed personal sin or not, were still born under the curse of sin and as humans, will die ...

 

[ArmyMatt]

Now you all are getting back around to the question I thought of making a new thread for earlier, then didn't because it seemed to be answered. I think I will always have questions.

Following with interest.

But I'm thinking of the Theotokos as a 3-year-old, and of Saints that displayed what we might call theosis during life?

Yet those Saints still desire to repent, don't they? And still must deal with demonic attacks/temptations, even if there might be nothing in them still that inclines them to be desiring the thing they are tempted with?

I guess I am asking - what exactly DOES theosis look like?

Not trying to interrupt. I'm trying to understand as well. Thank you both!

most saints still seek penance no matter how holy they become, but not that they fret over sins, but they are so close to Christ they are aware of how creaturely they are.

if you wanna see what this looks like, read the life of St Antony as recorded by St Athanasius.

 

[ArmyMatt]

(only read the OP).
what about the atonement? the blood of Jesus that cleansed everyone who is saved of sin, for all time ?

yes, but the word for sin in Scripture is more comprehensive than committing willing sins. in other words, even if you don't personally sin, you are still caught by sin, enslaved to it, and need a Savior.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

.....

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

yes, but the word for sin in Scripture is more comprehensive than committing willing sins. in other words, even if you don't personally sin, you are still caught by sin, enslaved to it, and need a Savior.

I never once said or posted otherwise. In fact, ... oh.... never mind, I almost forgot we are in a restricted section.... Later elsewhere, YHWH willing...

 

[ArmyMatt]

I never once said or posted otherwise. In fact, ... oh.... never mind, I almost forgot we are in a restricted section.... Later elsewhere, YHWH willing...

yeah, I was just making sure to be clear.

 

[~Anastasia~]

A few years ago, if you had had the answers to a few questions, it would have spared you years of pain and suffering.

This is a question of the mind, not the heart or spirit.

Good. YHWH Promises everyone who seeks and keeps seeking the truth will find it, .... everyone. It is YHWH'S guarantee.

.... will have to continue elsewhere later, YHWH willing, if you desire to.
(not this thread probably)
You didn't understand me a couple years ago, nor feel okay to trust me.
That's good - don't trust man. Man's promise and word is not as good and perfect as YHWH'S WORD/PROMISE. Trust YHWH (it will be painful, it always is).
But as Jesus says "Be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." . . .

This post will self destruct in 24 hours.
(feel free to delete it before then)

Thanks for your concern again, ysj, but ... what years of pain and suffering? The past few years have been some of the most blessed and joy-filled times of my life, and the source of much interpersonal healing. On the contrary, I'd be a mess by now if I hadn't discovered the Church.

(And if by any chance you are referring to my cancer ... I didn't talk about it publicly, but thank God it was a slow-growing one. I have had symptoms since a few years before ever finding Orthodoxy.)

And actually, it is a question of the spirit, but I don't really expect you to understand that Orthodoxy actually teaches us not to continually try to logically figure everything out as nearly every western denomination does. I must say there are a few that have that in common with Orthodoxy, and it is one of the strengths those denominations possess.

But you're right that further discussion of this sort doesn't properly belong in TAW, though you may feel free to bring it to St. Justin Martyr's. I think we are the only community on CF that actually invite people to come and engage in debate.

God be with you.