Mary

[Aldebaran]

If you assert that any specific person has sinned, you must prove it yes. We certainly know that the vast majority of people sin, but the verses you cite do not mean that each and every human being who has existed on the Earth has committed an act of sin.

For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Do you believe this statement?

For example, the one year old son of someone I know died recently. What act of sin could he possibly have committed? You tell me.

He was born with a sin nature. If he would have gotten older, he would have lived with his sin nature until he repented. That's just the nature of what we're all born into.

 

[W2L]

For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Do you believe this statement?

Amen.

 

[Arsenios]

Yeah..false doctrine spreads like cancer

Well, when you find that ALL the Apostolic Churches venerate the Blessed Virgin Mother of our Lord, and make the above reply, then how can we avoid your having to conclude that Jesus failed in His instruction of His Church in the matter of His Own Mother?

Arsenios

 

[Victory-N-Christ]

Christians have always prayed to the Blessed Virgin Mary and held her up as the Christian par excellence, the best example of a follower of Christ

Christians who were persecuted by the pagan Romans and the pagan Barbarians
but over time, the civilized pagans of Greece, Rome, and Egypt become converted to the true faith of Christianity
and one by one the Barbarian tribes of the Franks, Saxons, Celts, Danes fell to the love, piety, rationality, and truth of the Christian religion

Christianity, armed with the faith in Jesus, the wisdom of the Bible, the leadership of valid Bishops, the sustaining grace Sacraments, and devotion to the Saints in heaven who pray for us here on earth, was first persecuted by the pagans, and then overcame them with Love and Truth

then after the pagans were converted, in both a culture, place, and time very far removed from the the what the first Christians would have known, we get people telling us that it is not good to pray to the Saints, seeking to say that Mary was not a Holy Virgin her entire life

were there missteps along the way?
sadly yes, the Church in East neglected to convert the arab tribesmen
as punishment for this God allowed Islam to rise up among them and they became a great scourge to the Church punishing us for our failure to spread the Gospel to them
at times the Church in the West neglected the common folk, focusing more on clerics and princeses
as punishment God allowed Cathers and Hussites to rise up and become a scourge to the Church punishing our neglect

so yes, mistakes were made, but to be told by members of a religion that was made up 500 years ago in Northern Europe that it is not "Christian" to pray to Mary and the Saints is beyond the pale
asking us to abandon our Faith, the Faith that withstood the swords of Roman and Barbarian
not only withstood but also in time converted those people
only to be told 1500 years after the time of the Apostles that these ways are are not true, after they have withstood the test of time

till this very day the majority of Christians hold these teachings to be true, in Russia, in Greece, the remaining Christians throughout the Levant and Arabia and North Africa, and a majority of Christians in Europe
the Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and some of the more traditional Anglicans all hold true to this ancient Christian belief in the intercession of the Saints and the special role of the Virgin Mary, it is only a minority of Christians who follow these theological innovations that are foreign to the Early Church

Thanks for taking time to respond. Well what you've said is very interesting. There's a lot of history behind praying to Mary and the Saints.Thank you for sharing.But I'll still stand behind my belief that we don't have to pray to her or the saints.

 

[Aldebaran]

5 In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah, of the division of Abijah. And he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and statutes of the Lord. 7 But they had no child, because Elizabeth was barren, and both were advanced in years.​

You see how that works?

Not really. How does it work? Are you saying that today if we follow all the old testament commandments and statutes, then we will be saved even if we don't have Christ?

 

[Arsenios]

Well ...prove Mary sinned...
According to Romans...
Romans 5:12:
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world,
and death [entered into the world] by [that] sin;
and thus death passed upon all men,
for that [eg - for which cause - eg death] all have sinned...

...so unless you are claiming Mary is not part of the human mortal race she sinned.

This passage proves she inherited death...
The first Eve sinned in thought, word and deed...
The second did not...

The last line admits of the understanding merely that the existence of death accounts for all sin...
eg - For which cause all (who did sin) have sinned...
It is not air-tight proof that every human organism has sinned...
It IS air tight that death is the root cause of sin...

And even if one were to establish that she did in fact sin, this still does not establish that she failed to maintain purity of heart unto Her Conceiving our Lord. The Bible does not record her doing any sin...

Arsenios

 

[W2L]

Romans 3:10 As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”[a]

 

[Arsenios]

Did Mary have special gifts of healing,raising the dead,casting out demons,walking on water,forgiving sins,being foretold as the Lamb of God?

Nothing of that kind is recorded of Her - All She did was incarnate God into Her own flesh - Who is the Giver of all those things...

Look I'm not interested in bashing Mary or Elijah or Moses okay?

I can see you are not... Glory to God!

All I'm saying is in my opinion and from what I've understood from scripture the only Mediator between the Father and humankind is Jesus.

This is where I am confronting you, because Scripture clearly instructs us all to intercede for one another in prayer, and because our ONLY Mediator unto the Father is Christ, why are you denying that we have any mediators to Christ?

Please re-read and answer the just-previous question.

Arsenios

 

[Aldebaran]

This is where I am confronting you, because Scripture clearly instructs us all to intercede for one another in prayer, and because our ONLY Mediator unto the Father is Christ, why are you denying that we have any mediators to Christ?

1 Timothy 2:5---"For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus"

Notice it doesn't say "each other" or "Mary".

 

[W2L]

This is where I am confronting you, because Scripture clearly instructs us all to intercede for one another in prayer, and because our ONLY Mediator unto the Father is Christ, why are you denying that we have any mediators to Christ?

Please re-read and answer the just-previous question.

Arsenios

because our ONLY Mediator unto the Father is Christ, why are you denying that we have any mediators to Christ?

Huh?

 

[Aldebaran]

Huh?

I've read it several times and still don't understand that one!

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

Nonsense. Mary did not say that. You can post it a thousand times if you want.

Mary obeyed GOD. She wants you to do so as well.

 

[Arsenios]

I like these type of questions. It helps me to limber up my faith in Christ.And crack open the pages of my Bible and do some serious studying of the subject of salvation and who brings it.Not that I don't already enjoy reading scripture.It's just nice to know that there is no power in any other name through prayer except Jesus.

That is Good News indeed!

Be very clear on what Salvation is here and now, because the Gospel message, the Good News, is that the Kingdom of Heaven is here and now, AND...
That there is something you can do about that fact, WHICH IS...
Be repenting and be Baptized, [all of you]

For we are saved by Grace, which God IS, and which only God CAN give, because He is the only one who HAS it TO give... The Marriage of the Lamb is the Union of man and God through the Faith of Christ which He gave to His disciples, and by the agency of God Himself giving Himself to that very Marriage Union. Eternal Life is the KNOWING of God by man in that Marital Union... It is becoming by Grace of that which Christ was by His very Nature as the God-man... Wherein we are to become Godded men by Grace through the Faith given us by Christ.

SO...

Expect to see "even the shadow of Peter" healing the sick and infirm in your walk...

"For these also He HAS Glorified..." [eg In this life]

Arsenios

 

[Rhamiel]

these ideas saying prayer to the saints is bad was not made up by the Apostles, or the disciples of the Apostles, or the Bishops who suffered under pagan persecution or any of the Churches founded by an Apostle

these ideas were made up by Northern Europeans 1500 years after the founding of the Early Church
1200 years after the persecution of the Roman Empire ended
not even sure how we can call them Christian ideas tbh

 

[PeaceB]

For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Do you believe this statement?

I believe everything in Scripture. What I do not believe in is your private interpretation of Scripture.

He was born with a sin nature.

He was born with the stain of original sin, unless he was given a special privilege from God that preserved him from the stain of original sin, as the Church holds with respect to the blessed virgin Mary. Now, unless you can read the mind of God, you have no idea whether or not God may have done that. Are you suggesting that God is incapable of doing that?

If he would have gotten older, he would have lived with his sin nature until he repented.

Maybe. Or maybe he would have had a severe mental disability that prevented him from knowing right from wrong, or from repenting.

Not really. How does it work? Are you saying that today if we follow all the old testament commandments and statutes, then we will be saved even if we don't have Christ?

The way it works is that anybody can attempt to proof-text Scripture to prove their point. The verse you quoted says that no-one is righteous. The verse I quoted says that two people were righteous. The fact of the matter is that the Bible does not explicitly state that Mary sinned, nor does the Bible explicitly state that Mary did not sin. Our belief is based on an implicit reading of scripture, and your belief is based on an reading of scripture. You have your interpretation, and we have ours, and we disagree.

I do not particularly desire to carry on further with this discussion, because the Church has most certainly heard any argument that you could present before, and responded to it. You can Google and debate with the numerous articles that have been written on the subject.

 

[PeaceB]

Mary obeyed GOD. She wants you to do so as well.

Amen!

 

[Aldebaran]

The way it works is that anybody can attempt to proof-text Scripture to prove their point. The verse you quoted says that no-one is righteous. The verse I quoted says that two people were righteous.

There is an explanation for what is meant by Zacharias and Elizabeth being righteous versus what Paul says in 1 Timothy 2:5. It's a short read if you're interested: (Lk. 1:6) How can Zacharias and Elizabeth be righteous, if none are righteous? | Evidence Unseen

 

[Arsenios]

Yo said Mary never died, as if she is not a dead person. As if my use of that term was wrong. But it wasnt. Mary did die. Maybe Colossians 3:3 may have been the wrong verse to quote but The Lord clearly says we will die.

In the real world we know people die.

Indeed we do know that in the "real world" people die. We bury ours all the time. My turn is coming soon...

I said that the Prophet Elijah is alive to this day, as is Moses, as is David, as is Paul, as are all the Holy Ones who have "died in the 'real world'." And the Blessed Virgin is the Holiest of all the Holy Ones, for She did what none of them was able to do...

John, the Greatest of all the Prophets, not only foretold Christ, but laid his hands upon Him and Baptized Him in the Jordan - Making him the greatest of all the OT Prophets... He sits on Christ's left Hand... It is His Mother who sits on His right... And by being HIS Mother, She is the Mother of us all, for Christ is our Father...

These are great Mysteries, better entered in the Faith Christ gave us, than explained in fallen human understanding based on Biblical speculations...

Arsenios

 

[Aldebaran]

And the Blessed Virgin is the Holiest of all the Holy Ones, for She did what none of them was able to do...

What she did was receive a message from an angel telling her that the Holy Spirit would come upon her and that she would give birth to Jesus. Oh yes, and she said " may it be done to me according to your word" in reply. That doesn't make her the Holiest of all the Holy Ones. It makes her a servant of God, just like anyone else who subjects themselves to God's will. She even referred to herself as a servant.

 

[Arsenios]

The Church in East neglected to convert the arab tribesmen...
As punishment for this God allowed Islam to rise up among them...
They became a great scourge to the Church punishing us for our failure to spread the Gospel to them...

Have you spread the Gospel to them lately?

We have many converts from Islam...

Not so much in, say, Saudi Arabia...

They are actually the fulfillment of the prophesy in Revelation...

Where the Woman is pursued and persecuted by the Serpent...

Persecutions are central to the praxis of the Faith in the EOC...

Apart from them, the Faith waxes coolish...

Arsenios