Mary

[PaladinValer]

Yes.
You may call her "Mary, mother of Jesus."
Or if you want to sound impressive, "Jesustokos".

And what are Jesus' natures? Is He Divine? Is He human?

Dosen't mean I think she's divine.

When did I ever claim she was? When did I even implicitly claim she was?

Straw Man Fallacy.

Blessed, very much so. But not some divine "Queen of Heaven"

Read my earlier posts. The mother of the king is the queen in Hebrew royal government. If Jesus is the King, who then is the queen?

Divine nay for everybody. Queen of Heaven is only among Roman Catholic circles. I'd say make a trip to OBOB and ask them why the title is there.

And among Anglicans too, since it is a logical (and therefore Reasonable) belief.

Besides, who said that she is divine?

Protestants seem to think that we Apostolic Christians believe her to be. Lord have mercy!

Strawman by implication. WDBT !

Indeed! But refresh me on the meaning of "WDBT" please?

Don't use that debate terminology, i'm not debating.

It is a debate thread. Furthermore, you did strawman me, and that is what Oblio (and I thank him for it) is trying to tell you.

I guess I see "veneration" of Mary for more than it actually is.

Perhaps then you should adjust your view so that it is actual of what doulia truly is, as you suggest?

 

[SeraphimSarov]

That's exactly what Nestorius said, except he called her "Christotokos."

Absolutely heretical. Jesus' divine and human natures are indivisible. At the moment He was conceived, He was fully God and fully man. Does that mean that God the Son did not exist prior to this conception? Of course not, and no one will claim that except for real extreme heretics. But to deny that Mary is Theotokos and instead call her Christotokos is outright Nestorianism.

 

[Yeznik]

That's exactly what Nestorius said, except he called her "Christotokos."

Absolutely heretical. Jesus' divine and human natures are indivisible. At the moment He was conceived, He was fully God and fully man. Does that mean that God the Son did not exist prior to this conception? Of course not, and no one will claim that except for real extreme heretics. But to deny that Mary is Theotokos and instead call her Christotokos is outright Nestorianism.

Theotokos addresses Christ nature(s) as both human and Divine. By stating that Mary is Christokos only address Christs human nature therefore removing the Divinity of His nature. By stating Christokos means that at sometime Christ stopped being God and was only man.

 

[PaladinValer]

That's exactly what Nestorius said, except he called her "Christotokos."

He called her Christokos only.

The title Christokos in and of itself isn't inaccurate, as it refers to the humanity of Christ (as He is, of course, a true blue Man!).

It only becomes a problem when it isn't paired with the title Theotokos in the sense of describing the wholness of Jesus. Thus, to claim St. Mary the EBV is the Theotokos or Christokos is fine, but to call Him either one only is a huge problem.

Absolutely heretical. Jesus' divine and human natures are indivisible. At the moment He was conceived, He was fully God and fully man. Does that mean that God the Son did not exist prior to this conception? Of course not, and no one will claim that except for real extreme heretics. But to deny that Mary is Theotokos and instead call her Christotokos is outright Nestorianism.

Amen! But just remember that a denial of her as the Christokos is as bad as a denial of her as the Theotokos is. She is both, for Jesus is both a human being and God.

 

[SeraphimSarov]

I think both you and Rick Otto know what I'm talking about. And I said that His two natures are inseparable, so it follows that she must be Christotokos, as well as Theotokos.

So yes, to deny either one is to fall into some pretty deep heresy.

 

[PaladinValer]

I think both you and Rick Otto know what I'm talking about.

Yes I do. And I think you're doing one heck of a great job proving the orthodox (and thus the Orthodox!) point of view.

And I said that His two natures are inseparable, so it follows that she must be Christotokos, as well as Theotokos.

True true!

So yes, to deny either one is to fall into some pretty deep heresy.

Agreed!

 

[SeraphimSarov]

Thanks PV.

I have the strangest feeling of deja-vu, what with Nestorianism rearing its ugly head yet again on this forum....

 

[Rick Otto]

...surley she doesn't appreciate you sayin' her head is ugly!

And what are Jesus' natures? Is He Divine? Is He human?

Why do I suddenly feel like I'm at The Inquisition?

Answer: Yes!
(But Mary was only human, & flesh only produces flesh, otherwise you're getting into some very deep religious nonsense, which is worse than heresy)

: Theology posters are expected to understand that accusations of heresy, false doctrine, idolatry, anti-Christ, cult, non-Christian beliefs, anti-semitism, Zionism, etc., are very emotionally-laden. They are not conducive to clear discussion. While they are not forbidden in the context of a discussion (with evidence, examples, and/or support), they are discouraged by themselves, as terms of insult.

 

[Rhamiel]

Yes.
You may call her "Mary, mother of Jesus."
Or if you want to sound impressive, "Jesustokos".

Jesustokos... quote of the day
Ok lets look at how Catholics honer Mary, ok blessed virgen, well she is blessed and we have reason to believe she stayed a virgen her whole life, ok Mother of God, well if Jesus is God and Mary is the mother of Jesus then she is the Mother of God, we know that Mary did not create God, no ever said she did
ok now what... oh we call on Mary as our Mother, well Christ on His cross gave her to all mankind, "man look upon your mother" and Queen of Heaven sounds the most pagen thing ever, untill you think that Jesus is a King in the line of David and davinic kings had their mothers not wives serve as queen, so Mary is Queen of Heaven and earth just as Christ is King of Heaven and earth. so refering to her as "Our Lady", the word Lady is in the older, feudal, definition of the word

 

[Rick Otto]

in the face of Marian Devotion.

 

[Kristos]

(But Mary was only human, & flesh only produces flesh, otherwise you're getting into some very deep religious nonsense, which is worse than heresy)

[/COLOR]

I think that one only dug you deeper. Flesh only produces flesh - so what was Christ, only flesh, only human?

If you're theology is Nestorian, at least have the marbles to admit it and defend your position.

 

[Oblio]

I guess I see "veneration" of Mary for more than it actually is.

Well then rather than being ignorant of what 'it really is' and Tilting at Windmills, why not become educated on the subject.

 

[Oblio]

PV,

'Strawman WDBT' is compliance with those who would claim that proper debating style includes an explanation of why the fallacy was committed.

WDBT == 'We Don't Believe That'

 

[E.C.]

And among Anglicans too, since it is a logical (and therefore Reasonable) belief.

Protestants seem to think that we Apostolic Christians believe her to be. Lord have mercy!

Makes sense (first part) I just couldn't recall any official Anglican stance on the matter.

Bah! I say read up on thine history. Especially the period of the Ecumenical Councils. But that would mean going outside of the Bible, now wouldn't it?

 

[Rick Otto]

I think that one only dug you deeper. Flesh only produces flesh - so what was Christ, only flesh, only human?

If you're theology is Nestorian, at least have the marbles to admit it and defend your position.

Marbles I got plenty, but not more marbles than brains, as in the case of trying to accuse me of your half-witted deduction that because Mary could only reproduce flesh, that divinity could not be resident within that flesh.

Are you always so easily confused on issues of substance? Mary was the mother of Jesus. Jesustokos.
God always existed... before Mary. I haven't even had coffee yet & I can keep that much straight.

Now how 'bout you show some marbled integrity and admit you shot from the hip with a blank.
Or would that threaten the integrity of your other illusions?
See, it realy only takes a clear mind to debunk nonsense & decipher gibberish. You realy don't need $10 Greek words and 2 thousand years of repitition to be intellectualy respectable.

So what now? The Bible isn't enough? Heaven forbid we do without a predatory uberclass in costume with props to tell us what & how to think? Have you been hypnotizing chickens again?

 

[sunlover1]

Marbles I got plenty, but not more marbles than brains, as in the case of trying to accuse me of your half-witted deduction that because Mary could only reproduce flesh, that divinity could not be resident within that flesh.

Are you always so easily confused on issues of substance? Mary was the mother of Jesus. Jesustokos.
God always existed... before Mary. I haven't even had coffee yet & I can keep that much straight.

Now how 'bout you show some marbled integrity and admit you shot from the hip with a blank.
Or would that threaten the integrity of your other illusions?
See, it realy only takes a clear mind to debunk nonsense & decipher gibberish. You realy don't need $10 Greek words and 2 thousand years of repitition to be intellectualy respectable.

So what now? The Bible isn't enough? Heaven forbid we do without a predatory uberclass in costume with props to tell us what & how to think? Have you been hypnotizing chickens again?

Guessing you saw Chris angels cheap trick last night?

 

[Rick Otto]

Guessing you saw Chris angels cheap trick last night?

I work from 3-11:30+, so I'm a cultural outcast of sorts.
Golly, I didn't realize I was gonna be seen bitin' heads off by my favorite girlfre'n-in-Christ!
Sorry ya had to see that. I'll go get some coffee brewin' & try to be more friendly, brown-eyes.
Good mornin' sunshine!

 

[Oblio]

... that divinity could not be resident within that flesh.

Surely you are not implying that Christ inhabited or took up residence in a human body ?

 

[Rick Otto]

I say exactly what I mean.
What are you trying to accuse me of now?

Are you trying to practice Religious Law without a license?

 

[Oblio]

Well what you said borders on heresy