Mary

[RMDY]

Do you believe Jesus Christ was God from conception? If not, there's really nothing else to discuss. I'm not willing to debate a heresy that was eliminated almost a millennium and a half ago.

PS - read the gospel of St. Luke, chapter one, verse 43. I think you'll find that it contradicts rather sharply contradicts you. And if you don't... again, oh well.

I am not doubting Jesus is God. It actually doesn't contradict me. Rather, I said Jesus did everything on earth according to the will of the father, and as a result, hadn't been glorified by the father yet.
I didn't say Jesus, in accordance with the gospel of John Chapter 1, hadn't had glory before he was made flesh. I believe he, the son, the word, that was with God, and was God, was made lower than all the angels and heavenly things when he was made flesh, and as a result, lived to serve and do the will of the father, and along with that, glorified the father through his life on earth. Christ's glory, on earth, was his fathers, just as when Christ returned to the father, the father would give everything to the son.

Jesus and Father are one.

 

[Thekla]

I am not doubting Jesus is God. It actually doesn't contradict me. Rather, I said Jesus did everything on earth according to the will of the father, and as a result, hadn't been glorified by the father yet.
I didn't say Jesus, in accordance with the gospel of John Chapter 1, hadn't had glory before he was made flesh. I believe he, the son, the word, that was with God, and was God, was made lower than all the angels and heavenly things when he was made flesh, and as a result, lived to serve and do the will of the father, and along with that, glorified the father through his life on earth. Christ's glory, on earth, was his fathers, just as when Christ returned to the father, the father would give everything to the son.

Jesus and Father are one.

wasn't He in glory (glorified on Mt Tabor).

It is that we did not see Him in His glory.

 

[SeraphimSarov]

Why are you complaining that we call Mary the Theotokos if you believe Jesus is fully God and fully man? Whether He had yet been glorified by the Father at any point has absolutely no bearing on whether He was God or not.

 

[RMDY]

Please don't throw verses at us. Explain what you think those verses mean. I for one think it's incredibly rude to just throw Bible verses around like they stand as proof of your argument in and of themselves - we wouldn't be disagreeing if we all agreed on what the Bible says, would we?

I think they explain for themselves, but forgive me if I came across as rude.

"The throne of God and of the Lamb"
- Revelation 22:1

The throne belonged to God and the Lamb. We both know that they are both the same. Father and Son are one. The Word is with God, and is God. The Lamb is with God and is God.

"Lamb's book of life"
- Revelation 21:27

"The idea of a ’book of life’ goes back to Exodus 32:32-33, where Moses fails to persuade the Lord to blot him rather than idolatrous Israel out of his book. YHWH’s response is: ’Whoever has sinned against me, I will blot out of my book.’ The upshot is that a plague is sent upon the people as punishment: to be blotted out of God’s book is, therefore, simply to be killed. In similar vein the Psalmist prays that his enemies in Israel will be punished: ’Let them be blotted out of the book of the living; let them not be enrolled among the righteous’ (Ps. 69:28). See also Psalm 10:13-14; Isaiah 4:3; Mal. 3:16.
Daniel 12:1 is particularly important. At a time of extreme eschatological crisis (in Daniel’s narrative this is the crisis provoked by Antiochus Epiphanes) the people will be delivered - ’everyone whose name shall be found written in the book’. Daniel also has the thought of ’books’ that are opened when God judges the oppressor of the saints of the Most High (7:10)."
http://www.opensourcetheology.net/bible/node/1265

I used this quote because it said "Lamb's book of life." Note, it said "Lamb." Through out the Old testament, God spoke of having a book of life. I wanted to basically say "In the Old Testament, God spoke about having a book of life, and in the new testament, the Lamb spoke of having a book of life. Basically, another thing that the Father and Son, together as God, share."


"Who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men." ( Philippians 2:6-7) "He is the image of the invisible God.(Colossians 1:15) For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form." (Colossians 2:9)

Do I really need to explain this? I posted these quotes to show you what I believed in. I believe the fullness of God dwelt within the son, but he hadn't been glorified by the father while he was on earth, before his death, because it wasn't his time to be glorified yet. If the Jews knew Jesus was God, do you think they would have killed him?

 

[RMDY]

wasn't He in glory (glorified on Mt Tabor).

It is that we did not see Him in His glory.

Are you suggesting to me the father glorified him before His death?

 

[RMDY]

Whether He had yet been glorified by the Father at any point has absolutely no bearing on whether He was God or not.

I agree

 

[Thekla]

Are you suggesting to me the father glorified him before His death?

perhaps you could explain your understanding of this.

 

[RMDY]

I am not doubting Jesus is God. It actually doesn't contradict me. Rather, I said Jesus did everything on earth according to the will of the father, and as a result, hadn't been glorified by the father yet.
I didn't say Jesus, in accordance with the gospel of John Chapter 1, hadn't had glory before he was made flesh. I believe he, the son, the word, that was with God, and was God, was made lower than all the angels and heavenly things when he was made flesh, and as a result, lived to serve and do the will of the father, and along with that, glorified the father through his life on earth. Christ's glory, on earth, was his fathers, just as when Christ returned to the father, the father would give everything to the son.

Jesus and Father are one.

Let me correct myself.

I believe Jesus had glory, but while on earth, he did everything to the glory of the father, and received his authority and glory from the father. I believe that the father glorified Jesus when he died and was resurrected.

I believe the son and the father are both God, both the same, just as I also believe the Holy Spirit, the son, and the father, are together God.
When I have been speaking about the glory of Jesus, I have been speaking about the glory that has been given to him from the father when Jesus was on earth, as Jesus had done everything to the father's glory.

Before Jesus was made flesh, I believe he had glory and was God, and was with God.

But on earth, I believe the son was given glory and authority from the father and did everything for the glory of his father.

I hope this clears up any misunderstanding

 

[PaladinValer]

I am not doubting Jesus is God. It actually doesn't contradict me. Rather, I said Jesus did everything on earth according to the will of the father, and as a result, hadn't been glorified by the father yet.

God is all Glory. God is Three distinct Persons equally and eternally of the same One Unique Substance.

Jesus is the Incarnation of God the Son, second Person of the Blessed Trinity. He was always in Glory, for to deny that is to implicitly deny His Divinity.

As a previous poster wisey said, we simply did not see Him in His Glory yet.

I didn't say Jesus, in accordance with the gospel of John Chapter 1, hadn't had glory before he was made flesh. I believe he, the son, the word, that was with God, and was God, was made lower than all the angels and heavenly things when he was made flesh, and as a result, lived to serve and do the will of the father, and along with that, glorified the father through his life on earth. Christ's glory, on earth, was his fathers, just as when Christ returned to the father, the father would give everything to the son.

Did God the Son loose any, any of His Divinity or ability as a result of His Incarnation?

Jesus and Father are one.

In Substance, yes. In Personage, no.

Are you suggesting to me the father glorified him before His death?

We just celebrated such a day in which people saw Jesus as He was, in all of His Glory, while we was still Incarnate on Earth. It was His Transfiguration upon Mt. Tabor and on August 6th we Christians remember this because that is the Feast Day of the Transfiguration.

 

[Thekla]

Let me correct myself.

I believe Jesus had glory, but while on earth, he did everything to the glory of the father, and received his authority and glory from the father. I believe that the father glorified Jesus when he died and was resurrected.

I believe the son and the father are both God, both the same, just as I also believe the Holy Spirit, the son, and the father, are together God.
When I have been speaking about the glory of Jesus, I have been speaking about the glory that has been given to him from the father when Jesus was on earth, as Jesus had done everything to the father's glory.

Before Jesus was made flesh, I believe he had glory and was God, and was with God.

But on earth, I believe the son was given glory and authority from the father and did everything for the glory of his father.

I hope this clears up any misunderstanding

The Father is the origin/source.

 

[simonthezealot]

Question for you - if Mary carried the Word in her womb, the very God Himself, how is she not like the Ark? Indeed.

Where is the ark, right now?

 

[PaladinValer]

What does that have to do with the subject?

 

[simonthezealot]

Is the woman who brought God into the world somehow not worthy of at least a little bit of recognition?

comments like this make me want to coil up and cover my head!

 

[Thekla]

comments like this make me want to coil up and cover my head!

what, if your heart is "married to Christ", you don't show respect to your "mother-in-law" ?

 

[Oblio]

comments like this make me want to coil up and cover my head!

I suppose He just appeared from behind a rock
Or maybe a stork dropped Him off in the cave

 

[PaladinValer]

I suppose He just appeared from behind a rock
Or maybe a stork dropped Him off in the cave

You forgot about the aliens

 

[simonthezealot]

What does that have to do with the subject?

Just curious

 

[simonthezealot]

I suppose He just appeared from behind a rock
Or maybe a stork dropped Him off in the cave

John 1:1

 

[PaladinValer]

From whom, Simon?

From whom God was born?

 

[simonthezealot]

John 1:1

OOPS sorry pv I know how you hate having scripture thrown at you, or was that EC? I don't recall...