Mary

[sunlover1]

As it should be! Fear the wink!
Lol. I have too much fun here!

Me too!
You're nice to talk to EC.

It does not mean that before Mary there was no Trinity or no God the Son (Christ).
It means that because she gave birth to Him, she is the Theotokos.

I understand that part.
My point was that God always was, and that there
are indeed distinctions between He and Jesus
in other areas, and so why not this area too??
Would that break Scripture?

Can I borrow more then a few words from your posts (for my collection) this being one of them?

Yeah, that Rick is a walking thesaurus!!
Rogets should check with him when they add content.


Glad you're up and about firecritter.

Now don't be hasty though.

 

[Thekla]

Hebephrenic Paranoid Heresy.
sarcasm
iota anecdotal

"Theotokos"? pseudo greek

theological

Hey, Rick --

here's all the words I found in your post of greek origin.

If you don't like 10 dollar words, why use so many , or if its the greek ya don't fancy -- you can just drop those

Theos - God
tokos - bearer

just a compound word used as a descriptive title -- I think a word compounded of 3 might be scary, so maybe 5 or more could be monstrous

 

[E.C.]

I understand that part.
My point was that God always was, and that there
are indeed distinctions between He and Jesus
in other areas, and so why not this area too??
Would that break Scripture?

Certainly not. The main difference between God and Christ (other than different persons of the Trinity) is that Christ is man and God. God is just God. If nothing else, the title "Theotokos" helps prove Christ's humanity as well as divinity being in the same person.

 

[sunlover1]

Certainly not. The main difference between God and Christ (other than different persons of the Trinity) is that Christ is man and God. God is just God. If nothing else, the title "Theotokos" helps prove Christ's humanity as well as divinity being in the same person.

Hi friend.

How bout this...
Jesus Christ sits at God's right hand interceeding on
our behalf.
God doesnt sit on Jesus' right hand and interceed to Him.
ETC.

God in the sense I used above, cannot be born.
Jesus CHrist, can be born in the flesh, because
that is the point, that He came 'in the flesh".

This is where I'm coming from.

Jesus Christ is who Mary birthed (who happens to be fully man and fully divine)
GOD otoh, was the FATHER of The one birthed.

Mother Father, Son.

Just trying to see it from a different perspective rather
than what's 'taught'.
See, I don't assume that just because a bunch of guys
got together eons ago and decided something, that that
makes THEM any more right than if we guys here got together and studied something out (and had it revealed
to us by the Lord)
and came up with a bit of a different conclusion.
Call me rebel if you will, bit I feel it's wisdom rather than
rebellion.
I'm not, after all, rebelling against God.

K, that was a off the cuff post.
show me my error and/or folly.

love ya,
sunlover

 

[Fireinfolding]

Yeah, that Rick is a walking thesaurus!!
Rogets should check with him when they add content.

I needed the entertainment

Glad you're up and about firecritter.

Now don't be hasty though.

lol Im still "down" and "out" of commission, typing with one finger from bed sis, keeping it short for now. I'm just glad ya'll are here and that I can read ya's

hugs

Fireinfolding

 

[Yeznik]

Dear sunlover1,

Please be mindful of your approach. This is the same type of methodology used by JW’s and Mormons.

Just trying to see it from a different perspective rather
than what's 'taught'.
See, I don't assume that just because a bunch of guys
got together eons ago and decided something, that that
makes THEM any more right than if we guys here got together and studied something out (and had it revealed
to us by the Lord)
and came up with a bit of a different conclusion.
Call me rebel if you will, bit I feel it's wisdom rather than
rebellion.
I'm not, after all, rebelling against God.

Also, just by reading a medical book doesn’t automatically qualify me as a doctor. Now would you let me perform surgery on you just because I read a medical book and claim to know what I am doing, or would you rather have a surgeon who has actually graduated from a accredited medical school with a doctor’s degree?

 

[Thekla]

I needed the entertainment



lol Im still "down" and "out" of commission, typing with one finger from bed sis, keeping it short for now. I'm just glad ya'll are here and that I can read ya's

hugs

Fireinfolding

Hey, Fif -- if you make it over here again -- Hi

glad you're able to see something other than the ceiling

Prayers

love,
Thekla

 

[Thekla]

Hi friend.

How bout this...
Jesus Christ sits at God's right hand interceeding on
our behalf.
God doesnt sit on Jesus' right hand and interceed to Him.
ETC.

God in the sense I used above, cannot be born.
Jesus CHrist, can be born in the flesh, because
that is the point, that He came 'in the flesh".

This is where I'm coming from.

Jesus Christ is who Mary birthed (who happens to be fully man and fully divine)
GOD otoh, was the FATHER of The one birthed.

Mother Father, Son.

Just trying to see it from a different perspective rather
than what's 'taught'.
See, I don't assume that just because a bunch of guys
got together eons ago and decided something, that that
makes THEM any more right than if we guys here got together and studied something out (and had it revealed
to us by the Lord)
and came up with a bit of a different conclusion.
Call me rebel if you will, bit I feel it's wisdom rather than
rebellion.
I'm not, after all, rebelling against God.

K, that was a off the cuff post.
show me my error and/or folly.

love ya,
sunlover

Maybe because we say the Nicene Creed daily (at least), it takes less of a "leap" to understand for EO

The Father is the origin, "cause" of everything, and the son is "begotten", the Holy Spirit "proceeds".

Also, because in the OT we understand that the Son, before the Incarnation was present/active (sorry if the words aren't adequate).

I don't even know what I'm thinking here

but mostly to explain that the term Theotokos (God-bearer) is understood in a context, and to describe part of it ...

 

[Fireinfolding]

Hey, Fif -- if you make it over here again -- Hi

glad you're able to see something other than the ceiling

Prayers

love,
Thekla

lol me too sis trust me (never noticed I needed to vacume "up there" lol)

thank you thelka

 

[Rick Otto]

Thekla;If you don't like 10 dollar words, why use so many, or if its the greek ya don't fancy -- you can just drop those.
Theos - God
tokos - bearer[/quote]
Thekla, you're killin' me!
Good points, even if a little peripheral.
Ok, so I'll admit to some jealousy in my motives.

But I used wirdz of origin, not full-blown Geek,... uh, I mean Greek!

Point being, the general impenetrability of it by the average laity, not the average EO, laity, but the average Christian laity.
And that's what I meant by indicting the example of EO children "having no problem" with it, by asking if it was "typical". I didn't mean typical of EO congregations, I meant typical of all Christian congregations.
But that involves the whole "Definition of Christian" controversy that led to CF's name change, and I didn't mean to go there.

And now that you give "God-bearer" as a... what? Translation, or transliteration? That is conceptualy different from the "Mother of God" idea I find so misleading.

And if that were the only misleading thing I could find, I would easily overlook it, but as you might've guessed, I am a critic of dressing up - both in dress & speech, especialy when it is claimed to "glorify God" on the one hand, while it distances leaders from followers and becomes a badge of authority on the other.
If I came to your service dressed in the same get-up as the priests, surely people would be confused & then offended, even if I said"But I only do it to glorify God!"

The only authority I try to acquire & maintain is the authority of truth itself. I'll whip out the $10 words when I'm in a group of intellectuals, or pseudo-intellectuals, but I try to be able to boil down what I say into what the least among us can get a handle on.

I would never don fashion that reaches the level of costume without donning a healthy dose of self-effacing humor, and the realization of how much self-gratification can blend in with the intent to "glorify God". Righteous indignation should never be a response to satire, because it only strenthens the satirist's hand.
If you join in the laughter at yourself, esp. if you can one-up the laughter at yourself, you defeat the satire.

I think Oblio has an awareness of that, as I've never been able to P.O. him, that I'm aware of.

Thekla, stop making me be so nice & explain myself,... it's unmanly!
"Never complain, never explain." - John Wayne as Rooster Cogburn

 

[Rick Otto]

Yeznik;...Also, just by reading a medical book doesn’t automatically qualify me as a doctor. Now would you let me perform surgery on you just because I read a medical book and claim to know what I am doing, or would you rather have a surgeon who has actually graduated from a accredited medical school with a doctor’s degree?

While surgery & exegesis aren't exactly as critical in terms of immediate consequences, I think you have a good point. However... reading those medical books myself will make my Informed Consent more positively effective, giving me the tools I need to ask & understand the harder questions, plus it will alert the doctor to the fact that I am conscientious (study for approval) & expect him to be, not implicitly trusting him because he wears a lab coat & stethiscope, and says "diazapam" instead of "Valium".
And so it goes with "Theotokos" instead of "Mother of God".

 

[prodromos]

And now that you give "God-bearer" as a... what? Translation, or transliteration? That is conceptualy different from the "Mother of God" idea I find so misleading.

"Bearer" means the same as "mother of" or "birther". "Teknon", which has the same roots as "tokos" means "children", so "God bearer" means the same thing as "mother of God".
The term used which means to "bear" God in the sense of simply "carrying" though not being the "mother of" is "Theoforos"

John

 

[sunlover1]

Maybe because we say the Nicene Creed daily (at least), it takes less of a "leap" to understand for EO

The Father is the origin, "cause" of everything, and the son is "begotten", the Holy Spirit "proceeds".

Also, because in the OT we understand that the Son, before the Incarnation was present/active (sorry if the words aren't adequate).

I don't even know what I'm thinking here

but mostly to explain that the term Theotokos (God-bearer) is understood in a context, and to describe part of it ...

LOL, it's alright Thekla.
It IS confusing isnt it?
Trying to even really understand
the three/one etc.

could bout make one's head spin.

Guess God's still out of our league
when it comes to understanding
this mystery (God in three persons)

But Nicene Creed...?
What's that to do with this?
Just as confusing if ya ask me lol.
Then there's the filioque.

Which, makes sense too in a way.

But anyhow, great to talk with you
Thekla!
You're a blessing.


sunlover

 

[Oblio]

Which, makes sense too in a way.

A lot of things make sense.

 

[Thekla]

LOL, it's alright Thekla.
It IS confusing isnt it?
Trying to even really understand
the three/one etc.

could bout make one's head spin.

Guess God's still out of our league
when it comes to understanding
this mystery (God in three persons)

But Nicene Creed...?
What's that to do with this?
Just as confusing if ya ask me lol.
Then there's the filioque.

Which, makes sense too in a way.

But anyhow, great to talk with you
Thekla!
You're a blessing.


sunlover

Thankful that you're patient, Sunlover ; I knew I'd make a mess of things, LOL

If you don't mind, I'll try further

In my experience, the EO are more likely than most Christians I know to refer to Christ as God.
Or use the term the "God-man".

We refer to, pray to the members of the Trinity daily. Also, by repeating the Nicene Creed, we are better equipped to understand the persons of the Trinity, and the role of Mary. ... the creed is a "summary of scripture". We know also about the pre-incarnate Christ (my kids even have a children's book about Christ in the OT) -- so there's no confusion; God pre-"dated" Mary, and she is created, the Trinity is "uncreated".

So when we talk about Mary as the "Mother of God, God-bearer", even my little guys don't have a problem understanding it.

This is what I mean about context -- the term Theotokos doesn't sound so "troubling" because
of the enviornment of understanding/learning.

But then, I still don't know if I make any sense

Thanks for ears and heart, Sunlover !

 

[Rick Otto]

Thatis why I simply object, but do not condemn it.
That is why I say it is misleading instead of saying it is false.
It is quite like glossolalia.
To the "uninitiated" it sounds like insane gibberish when everybody is doin' it all at once (the usual drill), but when it is used as Paul proscribed, each time interpreted, the newbies aren't overwhelmed & turned off.

...And your simply acknowleging my pefectly acceptable distinction between His flesh being birthed & His divinity "sojourning thru" incarntion, instead of insisting I've seperated the two hereticaly, is rational & respectful...I sorely appreciate that.

As a man, it singes my backside to see a lone women amongst 3 men, with the spirit & intellect to accomplish that.
Kudos to you, sister in Christ.