Mary

[rich]

asking someone who is dead to pray for us is necromancy, strictly forbidden in Deuteronomy

 

[rich]

Why can't God use women in the pulpit?

 

[frdave20]

bvecause women have distinct roles with the church (now when I refer to the Church i am speaking from a Roman Catholic perspective). Paul tells us that women should be silent in Church with their heads covered out of deference and respect to God. simply, because women cannot be priests, does not demean their unique role in the life and propogation of the Faith.

 

[ps139]

asking someone who is dead to pray for us is necromancy, strictly forbidden in Deuteronomy

and asking a friend to pray for you is idolatry, worshiping a false god, strictly forbidden in every book of the Bible.



(sarcasm)

 

[ps139]

Who's records, what Church and at what timeframe was this info started?

A catholic record would indeed be biased as there would be much to loose if the actual records showed the timing to settle well with Mary having Children. Im not sure I would trust the catholic recording.

Is there any outside source?

Yes. Is Martin Luther acceptable? John Calvin unbiased enough?


LUTHER:

• Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.
  

{Luther's Works, eds. Jaroslav Pelikan (vols. 1-30) & Helmut T. Lehmann (vols. 31-55), St. Louis: Concordia Pub. House (vols. 1-30); Philadelphia: Fortress Press (vols. 31-55), 1955, v.22:23 / Sermons on John, chaps. 1-4 (1539) }

• Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . I am inclined to agree with those who declare that 'brothers' really mean 'cousins' here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.
  

{Pelikan, ibid., v.22:214-15 / Sermons on John, chaps. 1-4 (1539) }

• A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary, the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ . . .
  

{Pelikan, ibid.,v.45:199 / That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew (1523) }

• Scripture does not say or indicate that she later lost her virginity . . .
  
  When Matthew [1:25] says that Joseph did not know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her . . . This babble . . . is without justification . . . he has neither noticed nor paid any attention to either Scripture or the common idiom.
  

{Pelikan, ibid.,v.45:206,212-3 / That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew (1523) }

Editor Jaroslav Pelikan (Lutheran) adds:

• Luther . . . does not even consider the possibility that Mary might have had other children than Jesus. This is consistent with his lifelong acceptance of the idea of the perpetual virginity of Mary.
  

{Pelikan, ibid.,v.22:214-5}

John Calvin

• Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ's 'brothers' are sometimes mentioned.
  

{Harmony of Matthew, Mark & Luke, sec. 39 (Geneva, 1562), vol. 2 / From Calvin's Commentaries, tr. William Pringle, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55}

• [On Matt 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called 'first-born'; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation.
  

{Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 107}

• Under the word 'brethren' the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity.
  

{Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 283 / Commentary on John, (7:3) }

The idea that Mary had other children became popular in THE NINTEENTH CENTURY.

The idea that Mary had no other children and remained virgin became popular in the FIRST CENTURY.

 

[RainMaker]

I am quite puzzled by the idea of praying to Mary. Can someone please show me where in the scriptures this is advocated. TIA.

 

[ps139]

I am quite puzzled by the idea of praying to Mary. Can someone please show me where in the scriptures this is advocated. TIA.

To clear a few things up. When Catholics pray to Mary, it is always asking her (praying to her..same thing) to pray TO GOD for us about something. The prayer doesn't stop at Mary as if she were God.
Have you ever asked a friend to pray for you? There is nothing wrong with that, right? What if you know that friend is in heaven? "Dear friend, please pray for me." Now, what if that friend is Mary?

In Scriptures this is advocated in James 5:16
"..pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective."

Now, you would agree that Mary is righteous, right? So, her prayer is powerful and effective.

Also, when I pray to Mary to pray to God for me, I don't stop there. I pray to God directly also. If there were anything wrong with doing both, then it would also be wrong to ask a friend to pray for you. You can never have too many prayers . I hope this cleared it up a bit.

 

[ABDIarise]

Have any of you ever wondered why Jesus did not pray to His mother, Mary? This must make us wonder about it, right?

 

[ABDIarise]

I am quite puzzled by the idea of praying to Mary. Can someone please show me where in the scriptures this is advocated. TIA.

Rain, maybe you and I just don't get this Mary thing? LOL
Something in my heart tells me it is wrong, though.

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

Have any of you ever wondered why Jesus did not pray to His mother, Mary? This must make us wonder about it, right?

No. Jesus is God. We ask Mary to go to Christ for us. Why would Jesus ask Mary to go to Himself for Him.

Doesn't make sense.

 

[ps139]

No. Jesus is God. We ask Mary to go to Christ for us. Why would Jesus ask Mary to go to Himself for Him.

Doesn't make sense.

Great answer. Also, think about it in the other way. Was there ever a case of somebody asking Mary to ask Jesus to do something? Something Jesus did not want to do at first, but did it because his mother asked him? The wedding at Cana:

John 2:3 - When the wine was gone, Jesus' mother said to him, "They have no more wine." Based on Jesus' answer, it is implied that she is asking Him to change water into wine. I think that some people at the wedding, although not knowing the full extent of Jesus' power, recognized that he was holy, and asked His mother if He could do something. Or it could be that Mary saw the shame of the wedded couple at the fact that there was no wine left, and felt sorry for them. Either way, she is the one asking Jesus.

John 2:4 - "Dear woman, why do you involve me?," Jesus relpied.
My time has not yet come." Jesus did not want to show His power yet.

Although Jesus did not initially want to perform a miracle atthis wedding, He did at his mother's request.

James 5:16 - The prayer of a righteous man (or woman) is powerful and effective.

 

[ABDIarise]

bvecause women have distinct roles with the church (now when I refer to the Church i am speaking from a Roman Catholic perspective). Paul tells us that women should be silent in Church with their heads covered out of deference and respect to God. simply, because women cannot be priests, does not demean their unique role in the life and propogation of the Faith.

What is a woman to cover her head with?

 

[ABDIarise]

No. Jesus is God. We ask Mary to go to Christ for us. Why would Jesus ask Mary to go to Himself for Him.

Doesn't make sense.

Then who goes to The Father for you? I remember Jesus asked The Father and told the others to do so. So if you ask Mary to ask Jesus, then does Jesus ask The Father? Now, if this be the case, why do all that? Cannot you go to the throne boldy and bypass all that and just ask in Jesus' name as it is recorded in John?

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

Then who goes to The Father for you? I remember Jesus asked The Father and told the others to do so. So if you ask Mary to ask Jesus, then does Jesus ask The Father? Now, if this be the case, why do all that? Cannot you go to the throne boldy and bypass all that and just ask in Jesus' name as it is recorded in John?

I can.

And I can ask people to pray for me. Don't you do that? Why, if you can bypass all that and just ask in Jesus' name?

If I can ask the vicar (who's a righteous enough man in his way) to pray for me, why not the Mother of Our Lord, who's now in a state of perfection?

 

[ABDIarise]

I can.

And I can ask people to pray for me. Don't you do that? Why, if you can bypass all that and just ask in Jesus' name?

If I can ask the vicar (who's a righteous enough man in his way) to pray for me, why not the Mother of Our Lord, who's now in a state of perfection?

OK, I see your point, but isn't asking someone to pray for you, those that are alive on earth with you at this time? Do you have some refs as to where we would ask someone who is not alive on earth at this time to pray for us? I don't mean just those that have died and are alive in Christ, but those physically alive now?

I think that is what Paul was saying. Even though someone is dead and alive to Christ are we supposed to contact them today? If we are, then isn't that wrong? We would be much like those that call up the dead, not that we practice evil or anything. hhhmmm....some thought here would be welcome.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

OK, I see your point, but isn't asking someone to pray for you, those that are alive on earth with you at this time? Do you have some refs as to where we would ask someone who is not alive on earth at this time to pray for us? I don't mean just those that have died and are alive in Christ, but those physically alive now?

I think that is what Paul was saying. Even though someone is dead and alive to Christ are we supposed to contact them today? If we are, then isn't that wrong? We would be much like those that call up the dead, not that we practice evil or anything. hhhmmm....some thought here would be welcome.

From God's frame of reference, is there any difference? To Him, all are alive, as Our Lord said.

But the souls of the righteous are in the hand of God, and no torment will ever touch them. In the eyes of the foolish they seemed to have died, and their departure was thought to be an affliction, and their going from us to be their destruction; but they are at peace. For though in the sight of men they were punished, their hope is full of immortality. Having been disciplined a little, they will receive great good, because God tested them and found them worthy of himself; like gold in the furnace he tried them, and like a sacrificial burnt offering he accepted them. In the time of their visitation they will shine forth, and will run like sparks through the stubble. They will govern nations and rule over peoples, and the Lord will reign over them for ever. Those who trust in him will understand truth, and the faithful will abide with him in love, because grace and mercy are upon his elect, and he watches over his holy ones.
Wisdom 3:1-9

 

[ps139]

What is a woman to cover her head with?

I may be wrong, but I've always taken it to mean that a woman should not shave her head. I believe in that passage Paul is saying that men should keep short hair, and women should have long hair. Its strange because I always thought Jesus had long hair...it could perhaps be that He had long hair only in the paintings...or maybe He did have long hair, and Paul was speaking of this specifically to the particular church he was writing to.

 

[ps139]

OK, I see your point, but isn't asking someone to pray for you, those that are alive on earth with you at this time? Do you have some refs as to where we would ask someone who is not alive on earth at this time to pray for us? I don't mean just those that have died and are alive in Christ, but those physically alive now?

I think that is what Paul was saying. Even though someone is dead and alive to Christ are we supposed to contact them today? If we are, then isn't that wrong? We would be much like those that call up the dead, not that we practice evil or anything. hhhmmm....some thought here would be welcome.

I think Paul was talking about necromancers, seances, that type of stuff. Praying to a soul in heaven, asking them to pray for you is a tad bit different from trying to call up the dead for some message. Remember, we are a family, "co-heirs" with Christ.
Check out 1 Colossians 1:3. Paul mentions that he prays for the Colossians. I think it is irrelevant whether they asked him to do so, or he did it without them asking.

 

[Teh Wiccan]

Ok why do people pray to someone who was a fallen human like us, she gave birth to Jesus and will forever be thanked by eternity, but will it seriously do us any good to pray to her, when there is only one mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ

I'm going to use the bible for once. Bible says talking to dead people will send you to hell. Mary is dead. Therefore...

 

[RainMaker]

In Scriptures this is advocated in James 5:16
"..pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective."

PS139,
Thank you for trying to shed some light on this subject for me. Are there other scriptures that would be more definitive in advocating prayer to Mary? This verse is clearly advocating prayer for each other, rather than to each other. When I ask my pastor or friend to pray for me, I call him on the phone or ask him in person, I don't pray to him. What verses advocate prayer to anyone other than God?

Now, you would agree that Mary is righteous, right? So, her prayer is powerful and effective.

By this argument would this not also advocate prayer to others who have passed on from this existence? What about prayer to Moses, Abraham, or Elijah? Why Mary and none of these other "righteous" dead people?