Mary

[ps139]

If you don't mind, I would like to answer these questions in the reverse order.

By this argument would this not also advocate prayer to others who have passed on from this existence? What about prayer to Moses, Abraham, or Elijah? Why Mary and none of these other "righteous" dead people?

You are correct. Catholics do not only pray to Mary, but other saints, or "righteous dead people" too. For instance, it is very common to pray to Joseph, Peter and the rest of the apostles; basically, anyone you know is in Heaven, in direct communion with the Lord. I have never specifically prayed to Moses, but I don't know of any reason why it would be wrong to. I think that so much prayer is directed towards Mary because in the Scriptures she was undoubtedly (IMO) the closest to Jesus...she bore Him in her womb for 9 months and raised Him. And who is closer to a Child than His mother and Father? Also, there is the reference to Mary's request at the wedding of Cana in Scripture. And remember, it is always praying to that saint, asking them to pray for you to God. The Lord is the ultimate recipient of all of these prayer requests.

Thank you for trying to shed some light on this subject for me. Are there other scriptures that would be more definitive in advocating prayer to Mary? This verse is clearly advocating prayer for each other, rather than to each other. When I ask my pastor or friend to pray for me, I call him on the phone or ask him in person, I don't pray to him. What verses advocate prayer to anyone other than God?

If I could call Mary, or Joseph, or John the Evangelist on the phone, believe me I would. And since I'm calling him or her, I would say calling instead of praying. When we talk about "praying to Mary," the word "prayer" is used because she is in Heaven, it is the best "spiritual" word for "communicating." I see no difference in the verb used to "call a pastor to pray for me to God" and to "pray to Mary for me to God." When regarding a saint, I think "pray" is more commonly used because it is of a spiritual nature, and in Modern English, "pray" has strong connotations of spiritual action. This, I think is a quirk of the English language. In old English (possibly Middle English) and many romance languages, the equivalent of our "pray" has a wider definition, one of asking, or requesting. For instance, in Italian it would mean "to ask Mary to pray for me to God."

Here's an example. The verb "pregare" in Italian translates as: "to pray" (in a religious context), "to beg," and "to ask." So, if we were to say in English "I ask Mary to pray to God for me," it would be this in Italian "Prego a Maria di pregare a Dio per me." I use Italian as an example only because of familiarity (I'm not fluent so I may have some prepositions wrong ), but I do know that this wider range of the word "prayer" exists in other European languages. So, my point is that because we use two words in the English sentence, does not mean that their meanings cannot be essentially the same. I also think that in English the sentence, "pray to Mary to pray to God for me" is more common than "ask Mary to pray to God for me" because of this specific action's roots in Romance-language countries. If Christianity had developed among Germanic speaking languages, we would most likely use the second phrasing more commonly. But it means the same thing, the word difference is only an accident of religious and linguistic history. I hope that isnt too complicated, I just wanted to make sure I was clear. Linguistics is a tricky subject

Now to your question about other Scriptural references, check out Acts 8:24. Peter and the apostles meet Simon the Sorcerer. Peter tells Simon to repent, and describes the consequences of not repenting, and continuing in a life of sin. Simon can sense that Peter is a "righteous man." So he asks Peter to pray to the Lord for him.

Acts 8:24 (NIV) - Then Simon answered, "Pray to the Lord for me so that nothing you have said may happen to me."

Simon the Sorcerer could have prayed directly to the Lord, after all, in v.22 Peter says to him, "Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord." The Scripture does not explicitly say that Simon did pray to the Lord, but I think it is a safe bet to say he did - in addition to asking Peter to pray for him - because his request was forgiveness and salvation. So, if Simon the Sorcerer can ask Peter to pray to the Lord for him seeking redemption, we can too. And if we can ask Peter, we can ask Mary. Of course the ultimate recipient is always the Lord.

And I'm sorry if I'm being redundant, but remember that in a language like Italian, the above sentence could use forms of the verb "pregare" for both "ask" and "pray."

I hope this helps, God Bless you.

 

[RainMaker]

If I could call Mary, or Joseph, or John the Evangelist on the phone, believe me I would. And since I'm calling him or her, I would say calling instead of praying. When we talk about "praying to Mary," the word "prayer" is used because she is in Heaven, it is the best "spiritual" word for "communicating."

ps139, thank you for taking time to explain this to me. I guess what's bothering me about this is the fact that these "righteous" people being prayed to are dead. What is the compeling evidence to advocate such prayer. I understand the idea of asking somebody who is alive to pray for you, but fail to see the connection to prayer to the dead. I also wonder what proofs there are that in fact the dead can hear ones requests for prayer.

Now to your question about other Scriptural references, check out Acts 8:24. Peter and the apostles meet Simon the Sorcerer. Peter tells Simon to repent, and describes the consequences of not repenting, and continuing in a life of sin. Simon can sense that Peter is a "righteous man." So he asks Peter to pray to the Lord for him.

Acts 8:24 (NIV) - Then Simon answered, "Pray to the Lord for me so that nothing you have said may happen to me."

This verse, like the previous one quoted here is a great verse in support of asking our fellow brothers in christ to pray for us, but seems to be lacking the credibility necessary to advocate prayer to the dead (at least in my view). Are there any scriptural references specifically advocating prayer to the dead, or implying its worth?

Thank you for your effort in replying to me. I find this an intriguing issue worth exploring more.

 

[ABDIarise]

ps139, thank you for taking time to explain this to me. I guess what's bothering me about this is the fact that these "righteous" people being prayed to are dead. What is the compeling evidence to advocate such prayer. I understand the idea of asking somebody who is alive to pray for you, but fail to see the connection to prayer to the dead. I also wonder what proofs there are that in fact the dead can hear ones requests for prayer.



This verse, like the previous one quoted here is a great verse in support of asking our fellow brothers in christ to pray for us, but seems to be lacking the credibility necessary to advocate prayer to the dead (at least in my view). Are there any scriptural references specifically advocating prayer to the dead, or implying its worth?

Thank you for your effort in replying to me. I find this an intriguing issue worth exploring more.

I agree rain, it just doesn't hold water. (pun intended) heheeee

 

[ps139]

ps139, thank you for taking time to explain this to me. I guess what's bothering me about this is the fact that these "righteous" people being prayed to are dead. What is the compeling evidence to advocate such prayer. I understand the idea of asking somebody who is alive to pray for you, but fail to see the connection to prayer to the dead. I also wonder what proofs there are that in fact the dead can hear ones requests for prayer.

Hi Rainmaker,
It seems that the issue here is defining the word "dead." A little background info on saints: In Oriental Catholic Churches (as in the Byzantine & other Orthodox churches), Christians refer to many Old Testament personalities as "Saint x", eg Saint Enoch, Saint Job, Saint Moses, et al. We, of the Latin Rite or Catholic Church, usually use the term "Saint" only for those who are formally canonized. People called Saints of the early Church, like Peter, Paul, etc, were never formally canonized. Formal "Canonization" came much later in Church history, as a pastoral means of guiding the faithful about who should be regarded as a "saint". Of course, we are all 'saints' in New Testament usage.

The real 'crux' of your objection is in the fact that you regard these 'saints' as dead. We know by faith that they are NOT dead. In fact, they are more alive than we are now. If you are a Jehovahs Witness or a member of some other similar group, then you might actually believe that they are DEAD. But we do not. We believe that they are very ALIVE, sentient, rational, human and holy. Heaven doesn't subtract anything from our humanity; it perfects it, as much as possible.
Those who die, in Christ, live with Him in heaven. They remain the individuals they were on earth and we associate with them in heaven as the people they were on earth. Isidore of Seville was a farmer. Contemporary Spanish farmers still ask him today to pray to God for their fields and flocks, just as he did when he was on earth.
The non-Catholic Christian traditions (of not speaking to the "dead", of not venerating Mary and other saints) derive from a historical process that began in the sixteenth century AD. I am happy to discuss these things, because it promotes better mutual understanding, which we know (John 17) pleases Our Lord.

This verse, like the previous one quoted here is a great verse in support of asking our fellow brothers in christ to pray for us, but seems to be lacking the credibility necessary to advocate prayer to the dead (at least in my view). Are there any scriptural references specifically advocating prayer to the dead, or implying its worth?

Just in case there is still any confusion about the term "prayer" - and I really do apologize if I am being redundant: "To pray," objectively, means "to request." When people use the term today, "to pray" can be understood in a different sense. Our Catholic general categories of prayer are Adoration, Thanksgiving, Contrition and Supplication. 'Adoration' includes Praise and Worship (Latria, which can given to God Alone).
It is clear in the NT that Christians did communicate requests to each other. We still do so today, even if the person is in heaven. And the crucial point is this: The saints in heaven, canonized or not, are very much ALIVE. In the NT, we will not find prayers to the "dead," but prayers to the "alive," and any saint is alive in Christ right now. I do not think that Paul or any of the evangelists would consider a saint truly "dead." They do warn against necromancy, but that is completely different than prayer.
Some Non Catholic Christians may feel that "prayer" refers to adoration, thanksgiving, contrition and supplication, which belong only to God. We use the term 'prayer' also in the sense of 'communicating a request'; our usage does not imply giving anything that properly belongs to God to any other person.
As I said, the crux of the issue is seeing the saints as dead. If this is part of your personal creed, I have tried to explain the Catholic view as well as I could, without venturing too far afield.
And another linguistic note on "prayer": 'Pray' in English once meant 'request'. It is used by Shakespeare in that way. It evolded into 'prithee' (I pray thee), but was gradually replaced by 'if it pleases thee' and 'if you please'. Now we generally just say "please".

Thank you for your effort in replying to me. I find this an intriguing issue worth exploring more.

It is very interesting, and I very much like discussing issues like this with inquiring minds. God Bless!! I hope this helps!!

 

[Miss Shelby]

his verse, like the previous one quoted here is a great verse in support of asking our fellow brothers in christ to pray for us, but seems to be lacking the credibility necessary to advocate prayer to the dead (at least in my view). Are there any scriptural references specifically advocating prayer to the dead, or implying its worth?

The Transfiguration. Those faithful departed who have gone before us are NOT dead.

Michelle

 

[ps139]

I just ran across a post in the Catholic forum which is also relevant to this question, and is chock-full of Scripture:
http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=1212945

 

[good4u]

Mariology is a LARGE debate between religious folk. I personally have never asked a "DEAD" saint to pray I my behalf for the dead are not able to intercede for any living being. Now, if it makes you feel better, then by all means go right ahead. But that would be like me praying to my dead mother to ask Jesus to do me a favor when she could do nothing about it. I am wasting my time and would be much better off going straight to the Mediator, who indeed could do something about my request--directly. Do you see how ridiculous that is to do otherwise?

It is important to give honor to the mother of our LORD, as a special vessel of God's grace given to her, but she is a sinner like the rest of us in need of salvation.

But this is really that hard for some folks, I know.

 

[ps139]

Mariology is a LARGE debate between religious folk. I personally have never asked a "DEAD" saint to pray I my behalf for the dead are not able to intercede for any living being. Now, if it makes you feel better, then by all means go right ahead. But that would be like me praying to my dead mother to ask Jesus to do me a favor when she could do nothing about it. I am wasting my time and would be much better off going straight to the Mediator, who indeed could do something about my request--directly. Do you see how ridiculous that is to do otherwise?

Did you read the last few posts which already addressed this?? Let me sum them up:
1. Requesting a saint for you is NEVER a substitute for praying directly to the Father. It is only an extra.
2. "Prayer" = request, it is not worship
3. "The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective"
4. The discussion is at this question: Do you believe the saints are alive or dead?

Since they are in heaven, I believe they are alive in Christ, more alive then we are now.

 

[cleopa_of_emmaus]

But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Matthew 22: 31-32


~cleopa

 

[Miss Shelby]

Mariology is a LARGE debate between religious folk. I personally have never asked a "DEAD" saint to pray I my behalf for the dead are not able to intercede for any living being. Now, if it makes you feel better, then by all means go right ahead. But that would be like me praying to my dead mother to ask Jesus to do me a favor when she could do nothing about it. I am wasting my time and would be much better off going straight to the Mediator, who indeed could do something about my request--directly. Do you see how ridiculous that is to do otherwise?

It is important to give honor to the mother of our LORD, as a special vessel of God's grace given to her, but she is a sinner like the rest of us in need of salvation.

But this is really that hard for some folks, I know.

I have to wonder when I run across posts such as this in a thread where ample Scripture to support the Catholic view whether or not anyone is even bothering to read it.

Michelle

 

[RainMaker]

I have to wonder when I run across posts such as this in a thread where ample Scripture to support the Catholic view whether or not anyone is even bothering to read it.

Michelle

Michelle, great! You're just the person I'd like to speak with! I've been seeking these scriptures that you speak of, but haven't been able to find any. What verses are there that support the Catholic view of prayer to those who have passed on to the other side? I would appreciate it if you could send a couple of verses my way. Thank you very much.

 

[RainMaker]

Ps139, thank you for your reply. You have done a wonderful job of explaining your position. I do have a couple more questions for you though.

The non-Catholic Christian traditions (of not speaking to the "dead", of not venerating Mary and other saints) derive from a historical process that began in the sixteenth century AD.

This brings several questions to mind.

1. When did Catholics begin venerating Mary and the other saints?
2. Why did they start to venerate Mary and the saints?
3. When did prayer to these saints begin?
4. Why did prayer to these saints begin?

Some Non Catholic Christians may feel that "prayer" refers to adoration, thanksgiving, contrition and supplication, which belong only to God. We use the term 'prayer' also in the sense of 'communicating a request'; our usage does not imply giving anything that properly belongs to God to any other person.

I'm glad to hear this. I'm wondering however, what a prayer to Mary or one of the Saints would sound like. Could you share with me how a typical prayer to Mary would go? Would you also share a prayer to another saint of your chosing if it would be different in some way from a prayer to Mary?

PS139, this has been an interesting conversation for me. I look forward to your response.

 

[ps139]

Ps139, thank you for your reply. You have done a wonderful job of explaining your position. I do have a couple more questions for you though.


This brings several questions to mind.

1. When did Catholics begin venerating Mary and the other saints?
2. Why did they start to venerate Mary and the saints?
3. When did prayer to these saints begin?
4. Why did prayer to these saints begin?

Rainmaker,
Thank you for your kind words. I am more than happy to answer any of your questions.

For the historical questions, I do know that this sort of prayer began early in the history of the Church. The best way to know about what was going on in the early Church is to read the "Church Fathers." Many of their letters are preserved and from them we can know what was going on at the time. We do not take these documents as infallible or inerrant - they are not Scripture - but they are accurate in letting us know the "what" of the early Church - traditions, controversies, practices etc.

For starters, here are some quotes I have found.

Hermas
"[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’" (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).

Clement of Alexandria
"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).

Origen
"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).

Cyprian of Carthage
"Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy" (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).

Many more of these quotes can be found at http://www.catholic.com/library/Intercession_of_the_Saints.asp
and more info at:
http://www.catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp

I am not one who likes just giving out web links and calling it a day, so know that I will continue to research this and do my best to personally explain it to you. I just need some more time and did not want to keep you waiting. I know that I did not give you a full explanation of these new questions, especially about Mary, but know that I am working on it.

I'm glad to hear this. I'm wondering however, what a prayer to Mary or one of the Saints would sound like. Could you share with me how a typical prayer to Mary would go? Would you also share a prayer to another saint of your chosing if it would be different in some way from a prayer to Mary?

Well, the most common prayer to Mary is called the "Hail Mary." It goes like this:

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now, and at the hour of our death. Amen.

If you check out Luke 1:41-43 you will see that much ofthe language of this prayer was taken from Elizabeth's reaction to seeing Mary while they were both pregnant.

Here is another prayer to both Mary and to God, although less common:

The angel spoke God's message to Mary, and she conceived of the Holy Spirit.
Hail Mary, full of grace...
I am the lowly servant of the Lord: let it be done to me according to your word.
Hail Mary, full of grace...
And the Word became flesh, and lived among us.
Hail Mary, full of grace...
Pray for us, holy Mother of God, that we may become worthy of the promises of Christ.
Let us pray:
Lord, fill our hearts with your grace: once, through the message of an angel you revealed to us the incarnation of your Son; now, through his suffering and death lead us to the glory of His resurrection.
We ask this through Christ our Lord.
Amen.


I will also find a prayer to a saint for you. I do not know any offhand but I will be searching. As for the differences between prayers to Mary and to other saints, I think the only difference would be in the descriptive language used to talk about the saint/Mary. They both are asking the saint to pray for us to God, that never changes.

PS139, this has been an interesting conversation for me. I look forward to your response.

It has been very interesting for me also. Keep your eyes open for part 2 of this response.

God Bless you!

 

[Annabel Lee]

Here I am, listening to "Let it Be" from "The Beatles #1 hits"....and I see this Mary thread...What a coincidence.

Let it Be
(Lennon/McCartney)

When I find myself in times of trouble
Mother Mary comes to me
Speaking words of wisdom, let it be.
And in my hour of darkness
She is standing right in front of me
Speaking words of wisdom, let it be.
Let it be, let it be.
Whisper words of wisdom, let it be.

And when the broken hearted people
Living in the world agree,
There will be an answer, let it be.
For though they may be parted there is
Still a chance that they will see
There will be an answer, let it be.
Let it be, let it be. Yeah
There will be an answer, let it be.

And when the night is cloudy,
There is still a light that shines on me,
Shine on until tomorrow, let it be.
I wake up to the sound of music
Mother Mary comes to me
Speaking words of wisdom, let it be.
Let it be, let it be.
There will be an answer, let it be.
Let it be, let it be,
Whisper words of wisdom, let it be.

 

[ps139]

Rainmaker,


I've found some more information to better try and answer your questions.

This brings several questions to mind.
When did Catholics begin venerating Mary and the other saints?

The development of the veneration of Saints actually began during the first persecution of the Church, after Nero's fire. The saints venerated were the First Martyrs. "The Holy Roman Martyrology" was written serially during the persecutions. The surviving Christians wrote down the accounts of what happened and circulated them. (You can see the great reverence in which they were held in the text itself.) Despite the fact that most early Christian documents were destroyed by the Romans, who wanted the extermination of this Christian 'cult', some early copies survived.
A very powerful account of the martyrdom of two saints is told in "The Passion of Saints Perpetua and Felicity." It describes their arrest, imprisonment, and death in a Roman arena in 202 AD. There are also the visions which Perpetua had, the Lord ready to welcome her into Heaven. To give an example of the veneration held for these saints, here is a quote from the text:

O most valiant and blessed martys! O truly called and elected unto the glory of Our Lord Jesus Christ! Which glory he that magnifies, honors, and adores, ought to read these witnesses likewise, as being no less than the old, unto the Church's edification; that these new wonders may testify that one and the same Holy Spirit works ever until now, and with Him God the Father Almightym and His Son Jesus Christ Our Lord, to whom is glory and power unending forever and ever. Amen.

Overall, however, we do not know too many specifics about devotion and prayer to saints in the first generation of the Church. We do know that it was a practice of the following generations. A good source is "The Didache." I also recommend the Early Church Fathers be read to get a general feeling of the early Christian community. They are the best source. Here is a link with a collection of their writings available in many formats: http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/


For a number of reasons, not the least of which was the fact that Mary would have been a high priority target of Jewish persecution, little public mention was made of her in the time directly following Our Lord's ascension until the time when she was re-united with Him in heaven. Some people may have known that she was with the Lord's Beloved Apostle John somewhere in or near Ephesus. But probably not very many. Widespread knowledge about her would have necessitated constant relocating. A subcult might have even emerged and been a distraction from evangelization. Notice that she is mentioned very little in the Sacred Scriptures; she was a woman of silence and profound humility. When we read Luke's gospel it seems clear that she "stored up" many things about Our Lord's conception, birth and early years. From Luke's account, it seems he consulted her (as one who was influenced by Greek historians would), before he wrote his Gospel.

Why did they start to venerate Mary and the saints?

Notice St. John's recounting of the story of Cana: Mary's intercessory power is clear. Why did the Holy Spirit have John put this story in the Gospel? What was God revealing in this way? The power of prayer is one answer. But what about Mary's role in this event? It seems quite logical for Christians to realize that she must have some intercessory 'clout'.

Think of Mary standing at the foot of the cross of Her Son. The human heart is flooded with pity and compassion for her suffering in those hours of His passion and death. She was the first to know Who He was and her heart was surely pierced by what she saw, as Simeon had foretold. (Luke 2:35)

More to come in the next few days

God Bless!

 

[RainMaker]

PS139,

You have gone above and beyond anything I expected! I truely appreciate everything you have done to answer my questions. You have given me much to ponder and many resources to review. Thank you. May God have his blessings upon you.

-Mark

 

[Miss Shelby]

Michelle, great! You're just the person I'd like to speak with! I've been seeking these scriptures that you speak of, but haven't been able to find any. What verses are there that support the Catholic view of prayer to those who have passed on to the other side? I would appreciate it if you could send a couple of verses my way. Thank you very much.

You haven't been able to find any? sigh... go back and read post number 17 in this thread. If you still have questions, I'll be happy to oblige.

Michelle

 

[RainMaker]

You haven't been able to find any? sigh... go back and read post number 17 in this thread. If you still have questions, I'll be happy to oblige.

Michelle

Michelle....... sigh? Sorry if I'm testing your patience. I went back and read post 17. It lists only a couple of verses, Revelation 5:8 is a good one for your case. 1 Timothy 2:1-4 are the only other verses mentioned as evidence in the post and are quite poor at supporting prayer to those who have passed on. Great for supporting prayer for our fellow man however. Weak to say the least for your case.

I have to wonder when I run across posts such as this in a thread where ample Scripture to support the Catholic view whether or not anyone is even bothering to read it.

Michelle

I did read that correctly didn't I? You used the word ample to describe the Scripture available to support the Catholic view. Our friend PS139 has done an excellent job of supporting the Catholic view, but the "ample Scripture" is missing. I was under the impression you might have more scriptural evidence than the two passages in post 17.

 

[Miss Shelby]

I meant ample as in sufficient to complete the cause. Did you read the link that was provided in post number 17? If you still feel that evidence is lacking to support this view, then I am afraid we should agree to disagree.

Please provide me, if you will, where in Scripture it indicates that the faithful departed are 'dead'.

Michelle

 

[Miss Shelby]

I would also like to throw this out...not that it's here nor there.. but Liberal theology really isn't the forum for disucssing Catholic doctrine. In my opinion, Catholic and liberal should not even be used in the same sentence.

Michelle