Mary

[GenemZ]

To set out Christian Doctrine plainly I shall post the

Athanasian Creed

8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.

Ahhhem.... If Mary was the mother of God? Then Jesus was created.

If what you say about the humanity and Deity of Christ, were true? The Humanity of Christ should have just appeared out of nowhere. It would have to be that his Flesh Eternally existed.

Simply seeing a glaring contradiction is not from a perverse desire to be contradictory. Its just there! And, all you can do is scream "heresy!" to drown out the other voice.

In Christ, GeneZ

 

[Oblio]

It was only determined by a certain council during the dark ages, that it was heresy.

And heresy it is.

And there were no dark ages, especially not in the East where the council was held. That word is a derogatory term used to paint that Catholic Church in a negative light.

 

[Oblio]

The Humanity of Christ should have just appeared out of nowhere.

Out of nowhere ?

Do you believe that He was Incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary ?

 

[OrthodoxServant86]

And there were no dark ages, especially not in the East where the council was held. That word is a derogatory term used to paint that Catholic Church in a negative light.

Indeed, the Catholic/Orthodox Church was the only thing providing a light of civilization during otherwise dark, barbarous times (cf. muslim invansions of Europe and integration of Byzantine culture, onslaught of various heathen steppe peoples, survival of ancient literature through Catholic/Orthodox monasteries, gradual conversion of the newly settled plunderers, etc.)

 

[katherine2001]

I did not miss it. It is not I who is missing something.... You are really not getting anything I say. But, that's not my job to make you see.


In Christ, GeneZ

Gene, please speak for yourself. Maybe we are the ones who see and hear what is true and you are the one who needs to be given eyes to see and ears to hear. Believe it or not, we do understand what you are saying--we understand all too well, but it is not the truth.

 

[lionroar0]

I have read throough many posts. This is something that I keep seeing. Jesus's human nature=flesh. His Spirit=God.

He is both when he died His human nature did not die. It is part of His Spirit. When he diees he went to sheol(hades) as all human did. When he went there He threw opens the gates of hades and conquered death because He is God. Then on the Third day He rose from the dead because as God He conquered death it could not hold Him because He is also God. He is both fully Human and fully devine. His human nature did not die when he did. This is a false conclusion. When we die we go to heaven with our human natures. It does not die when our flesh dies. Our Human nature is to be in communion with God and our will conformed to His Will.



Peace



Did God die yes He did. Only God could throw open the gates of hades and conquer death. He rose from the dead because death has no power over HIM.

 

[GenemZ]

So you're a Nestorian?

The real question should be. Was Nestorius misunderstood? Was Luther? Was John Hus? Wycliffe? Your councils had a very bad batting average.

And, I had been confusing Wycliffe with Tyndale.

http://www.prca.org/books/portraits/tyndale.htm


It was William Tyndale who wrote the first translation into English for the common man. He was murdered by the Church for disagreeing with them on the very same doctrines you accuse me of not holding to. Interesting how times have changed. But, the Word of God never does.

In Christ, GeneZ

 

[Cliff2]

Ahhhem.... If Mary was the mother of God? Then Jesus was created

That is a thought that has not been explored before. I believe it to be true.

You make Mary the "mother of God" then you also make Jesus a created being.

All Mary and others can claim is that she was his eartly mother, not the "mother of God"

There is a difference, a big difference.

 

[GenemZ]

Out of nowhere ?


Do you believe that He was Incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary ?

Now, you act as if I said something totally different. Bye!
.

In Christ, GeneZ

 

[katherine2001]

I have read throough many posts. This is something that I keep seeing. Jesus's human nature=flesh. His Spirit=God.

He is both when he died His human nature did not die. It is part of His Spirit. When he diees he went to sheol(hades) as all human did. When he went there He threw opens the gates of hades and conquered death because He is God. Then on the Third day He rose from the dead because as God He conquered death it could not hold Him because He is also God. He is both fully Human and fully devine. His human nature did not die when he did. This is a false conclusion. When we die we go to heaven with our human natures. It does not die when our flesh dies. Our Human nature is to be in communion with God and our will conformed to His Will.

Peace



Did God die yes He did. Only God could throw open the gates of hades and conquer death. He rose from the dead because death has no power over HIM.

Well said. If what some have said on this thread is true, then we are still dead in our sins.

 

[Cliff2]

Did God die yes He did. Only God could throw open the gates of hades and conquer death. He rose from the dead because death has no power over HIM.

Jesus rose from the dead because death did not have any power over Him. That is right.

I believe that God cannot die, if He could then we are in big trouble.

 

[Saint_George]

Jesus rose from the dead because death did not have any power over Him. That is right.

I believe that God cannot die, if He could then we are in big trouble.

Jesus died... on the third day he rose again, in fullfilment of the scriptures...

 

[lionroar0]

HI Cliff and saint george.

Both of you are right. This is one of the many misteries that we accept by faith. The only way I see a person can split Jesus Human Nature from HIs devine nature is to mix a couple of heresies nestorianism, gnoticism and also a bit of calvins doctrine of total depravity

peace

 

[GenemZ]

Did God die yes He did. Only God could throw open the gates of hades and conquer death. He rose from the dead because death has no power over HIM.

Death had no power over him because he never sinned! He died for our sins, not his own. Death could not keep him down for he never sinned himself. If he had, he would have died forever. He conquered death by taking on our death, and then coming back to life because he never sinned.

And, it was because he became flesh that he was able to conquer death.

Hebrews 2:14-15 niv
"Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death."

His humanity that died saved us. For it was our death he took upon himself. Yet, he could not remain dead because he never sinned.

Romans 6:9 niv
"For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him."

Death never had mastery over Deity. Only over humanity.

1 Corinthians 15:21 niv
"For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man."

Its the death of his humanity ( through a man ) that we are saved.

Deity did not die on the Cross. It was Deity that brought his body back to life.

1 Peter 3:18 niv
"For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit."

He was not put to death in the Spirit. If he had been. Then you could say that his Deity died on the cross.

I find it amazing that how many times your church tells you one thing, and the Bible tells you another.... Yet, it is me that is the heretic in thinking.


Matthew 23:9 niv
"And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven."

And, that was such an easy command to follow......

In Christ, GeneZ

 

[lionroar0]

Death had no power over him because he never sinned! He died for our sins, not his own. Death could not keep him down for he never sinned himself. If he had, he would have died forever. He conquered death by taking on our death, and then coming back to life because he never sinned.

And, it was because he became flesh that he was able to conquer death.

Death had no power over HIM because He is God. It would of course follow that because He is God He never sinned.

His humanity that died saved us. For it was our death he took upon himself. Yet, he could not remain dead because he never sinned.

He conquedred death by dying. Death could not contian HIM. He died to conquer death once and for all. He did this as Jesus both Man and God.

"Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death."

Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity

And the Word became Flesh. This is what this means. He became Human and has a Human Nature like the rest of US.

so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death."

His humanity that died saved us. For it was our death he took upon himself. Yet, he could not remain dead because he never sinned.

His Spirit having 2 natures departed from His body. He would not been able to enter sheol as a Human with out a Human Nature and he Would not have been able to conquer Death if He was not God.

"For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him."

Death never had mastery over Deity. Only over humanity.

This is really no point at all. Since death has no power over God(devinity) but then again this is not the debate.

"For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man."

Its the death of his humanity ( through a man ) that we are saved.

Deity did not die on the Cross. It was Deity that brought his body back to life.

A man can not have a devine nature. Wrong conclusion. When Jesus ressurected He did so not only as God but also as man. Both Natures not just one. He was fully ressurected.

1 Peter 3:18 niv
"For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit."

He was not put to death in the Spirit. If he had been. Then you could say that his Deity died on the cross.

I find it amazing that how many times your church tells you one thing, and the Bible tells you another.... Yet, it is me that is the heretic in thinking.

What makes you a heretic is that you wish to say that Jesus human nature died on the cross. If it did as you suggest then how did he enter sheol?


Matthew 23:9 niv
"And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven."

And, that was such an easy command to follow......

All I see is an interpretation of Scripture that contradits Scriptures. Paul says that he was like a father, Jesus calls abraham father and St. Stephen call the Jewish elders fathers before they stoned him.

This last part is nothing but straw.

peace

 

[lionroar0]

Well said. If what some have said on this thread is true, then we are still dead in our sins.

Thank you.

 

[Cliff2]

HI Cliff and saint george.

Both of you are right. This is one of the many misteries that we accept by faith. The only way I see a person can split Jesus Human Nature from HIs devine nature is to mix a couple of heresies nestorianism, gnoticism and also a bit of calvins doctrine of total depravity

peace

Thankyou.

 

[GenemZ]

Matthew 23:9 niv
"And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven."

And, that was such an easy command to follow......


All I see is an interpretation of Scripture that contradits Scriptures. Paul says that he was like a father, Jesus calls abraham father and St. Stephen call the Jewish elders fathers before they stoned him.

This last part is nothing but straw.

peace

There is a big difference between referring to a person who is a father, as a father... and calling someone "Father." We can call a pig, a pig. But we are not to call a person a pig. Same principle.

Paul was a spiritual father to some. But, he was not to be called "father." Abraham was called "father" just like we have "founding fathers." Its a term used to not mean "father" in the sense Jesus spoke of. And, when Stephen spoke, it was in reference to younger and older men. It was not in the same context as found in Jesus command. Jesus words were spoken in regards to spiritual leaders.... No one who was involved with our spiritual relationship to God was to be referred to as, "Father."

Matthew 23:8-10 niv
"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ."

Rabbi was a spiritual leader. Teacher, ditto. And, some were in the habit of using the term "Father" in reference to someone in such particular positions. You make it sound like Jesus had no meaning behind what he said. It was just said to fill space on a page. Yet, the catholic church calls their pastors "Father." I guess Jesus was talking about nothing?

The key word was found in verse 11....

"The greatest among you will be your servant."

One can not be a servant of another if he is being his father to him. It would be like a household servant who has authority over a child to watch over him, demanding that the child call him father. The child's father would not like it if he heard him saying that to his child.

OK, then. Where does it apply? When Jesus said call no man father? How is that passage to be applied to our Christian walk? You have tried to make it walk in reverse and disappear from holding any meaning for us.

And, priests? That went out with the nation of Israel. We are now all priests in Christ. A priest represents himself to God. We now have direct access to our Father through the blood of Christ. And, an ambassador represents God to other men. We are all called to be both.

1 Peter 2:5 niv
"you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ."

We are all priests before God. There is no assigned specialty priesthood in the church's hierarcy. It was only found under the Mosiac law for the Jews. We name our sins to God. We no longer go to a priest to name our sins so he can offer a sacrifice for those sins. Jesus paid for all our sins. There are no more sacrifices to be offered. There is no need for a speciality priesthood.

1 Peter 2:9 niv
"But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light."

And, we are all called to a higher priesthood than the Jews knew of. For we are all called a"royal priesthood."

The Catholic church has obviously created its own system outside of the system designated in the Bible. No wonder that for years the Catholic church did not want the people to get their hands on a Bible they could read and understand for themselves.

Revelation 1:6 niv
"To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen."

In Christ, GeneZ

 

[deu58]

Hi Oblio

And there were no dark ages, especially not in the East where the council was held. That word is a derogatory term used to paint that Catholic Church in a negative light.

Oi yoi yoi!!!You totally deny that there ever was a period in historry called the drak age???? That has got to but to be worst case of denial I have ever seen!!!


Flabbergasted, but still yours in Christ
deu 58

 

[deu58]

Hello Lionroar0

He is both when he died His human nature did not die. It is part of His Spirit. When he diees he went to sheol(hades) as all human did.

Alright let me see if I am tracking what you are saying, The skin and bone Jesus died and stayed in the tomb, But the spirit which is the the true essence of any individual descended into hades,

is this what you are saying?

yours in Christ
deu 58