Mary

[InnerPhyre]

Hi Innerphyre



If you believe the spirits of men do not die then how do you come to the conclusion that God who is a spirit, can die???

yours in Christ
deu 58

Please re-read what I said. We only have eternal life now because Christ descended to the dead and conquered death. Before this event, there was no eternal life, only death.

 

[Axion]

Hello Axion


We are all going to really die one day until our lord returns to this earth, Does that mean that is the end of us? do you believe in the soul sleep doctrine????? That the spirit dies with the flesh and remains asleep in the grave until the resurrection?

Hello deu58,

The point I was making is that Jesus has one personhood 100% human, 100% Divine, and which doesn't split up.

This personhood, hypostatically united, died, paying the price for our sins. That One Spirit, man and God eternally united, descended into Sheol and conquered death. Unless both elements of Jesus, man and God, had gone through this process, there would be no redemption, since only a man had died, and his death would not cover the sins of the whole world.

 

[sawdust]

I think it was #216

Also, you might enjoy and find answers here, On the Incarnation - Athanasius especially the chapter on the Death of Christ. Note: The website is even Protestant (Calvinist IIRC). When was the last time you saw an Orthodox Christian agreeing with something on a Calvinist site

Thanks. Below is post #216

By Mystically hypostatically joining His divinity with our humanity given by the Theotokos through the good will of the Father, the power of the Holy Spirit. Thus enjoined until the ages of ages, He dies at the hand of those He loves to tear asunder the bonds of death.

I hear what you're saying but it doesn't mean I understand it any better. God has eternal life, right? Sooo.. how can He die?
When you say about joining His deity with humanity, it sounds like Christ's humanity is now the "ruling force" in terms of going to the Cross. But it was always the "will of the Father that Christ should suffer and die".
I mean no disrepect but your answer just doesn't help me understand any better. I will get to that link a little later.

And as far as Orthodox and Calvinists agreeing or disagreeing I find irrelevant. The only thing I have found in this world that is in fact in perfect unity is the Word. Sadly though, I have found less than a handful of men who can explain what it is saying without contradicting themselves or leaving one confused. Not that I am saying there aren't more and I am only referring to the present generation teaching at this time.

peace

 

[Axion]

To set out Christian Doctrine plainly I shall post the

Athanasian Creed

1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;

2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.

5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.

7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.

8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.

9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.

11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.

12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.

13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.

14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.

15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;

16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;

18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.

19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;

20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.

21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.

22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.

23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.

25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.

26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.

27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.

31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.

32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.

33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.

34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.

35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.

36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.

37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;

38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;

39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;

40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;

42. and shall give account of their own works.

43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

 

[deu58]

Hi Oblio

And where did His spirit go when only His flesh died ? When were they rejoined ?
You seem to be equating His flesh with His humanity and his spirit with God, is this true ? If so, where does Scripture state this ?

Lu 9:22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.

At the death of the flesh the Spirit of Jesus descended into Hades, It was not until the third day that he arose in the flesh from the dead, His dead flesh was handled and cared for by Joseph of Armithea and the his followers, The dead body was present with them. they put his dead flesh into the tomb, Where was his spirit?

yours in Christ
deu 58

 

[InnerPhyre]

Remember that to die in the OT did not mean to cease to exist. It meant to go to the abode of the dead, Sheol. Jesus, who is God, did not cease to exist, but died and went to Sheol to free the captive souls there.

 

[InnerPhyre]

Hi Oblio



Lu 9:22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.

At the death of the flesh the Spirit of Jesus descended into Hades, It was not until the third day that he arose in the flesh from the dead, His dead flesh was handled and cared for by Joseph of Armithea and the his followers, The dead body was present with them. they put his dead flesh into the tomb, Where was his spirit?

yours in Christ
deu 58

You just said it. His spirit was in Hades, the abode of the dead.

 

[Axion]

Thanks. Below is post #216


I hear what you're saying but it doesn't mean I understand it any better. God has eternal life, right? Sooo.. how can He die?

He died by His spirit (both man and God) being parted from His bodily flesh and passing into the abode of the dead.

 

[deu58]

Hello innerphyre

Hades, Paradise and hell, existed before the crucifixion, Jesus descended in to hell, conquering death,

Lu 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Lu 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Lu 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

yours in Christ
deu 58

 

[InnerPhyre]

Deu, my friend, I don't even see what you're arguing here. We're saying the same thing. Christ could not have descended to Hades without dying. He died and His spirit joined the dead in Hades. Then He freed them. He died. He rose.

 

[GenemZ]

No, God was not flesh before the incarnation, but He BECAME flesh. He didn't inhabit flesh. He became it.

"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us." John 1:14

Let's see... Let's try that same logic on the following.

John became sick. John was not sick. He became the sickness.



In Christ, GeneZ

 

[deu58]

Hi innerphyre

Deu, my friend, I don't even see what you're arguing here. We're saying the same thing. Christ could not have descended to Hades without dying. He died and His spirit joined the dead in Hades. Then He freed them. He died. He rose.

This thrad is supposed to be about Mary but we have been sidetracked by a side issue, The present arguement is that both natures of Jesushis flesh and his divine died on the cross, It was not his flesh that made him divine, it was his spirit, Thus God the spirit could not have died on the cross,

God the spirit suffered on the cross and when the flesh died that Spirit is the Spirit that descended into hades leaving the dead flesh in the tomb,

After three days the Spirit returned to the flesh of Jesus and this is the resurrection we all celebrate, If the catholic position is true then both God the flesh and God the spirit were both dead in the tomb for three days,

Thus denying the plain teaching of 1 Peter 3

1pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

yours in Christ
deu 58

 

[GenemZ]

You're still trying to divide Jesus into two parts. What christianity teaches is that Jesus has two natures, but that they are joined permanently in ONE personhood. There is only ONE Jesus. One consciousness, one person. There is no "dormant humanity", no just Jesus's humanity dying on the cross. Jesus the person, fully man and fully God, died for our sins.



You are not agreeing with scripture, you are selecting certain bits of scripture in isolation, and then wrongly interpreting them.

"Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped[/b],
but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!"

You see what you have missed in this passage is that God the Son really died on the cross.

I did not miss it. It is not I who is missing something.... You are really not getting anything I say. But, that's not my job to make you see.


In Christ, GeneZ

 

[InnerPhyre]

Ah I see. No no you misunderstand. I'm not saying His spirit stayed in the tomb. It didn't It went where all the dead spirits go, to Hades. To go to hades is to die. A spirit in Hades is dead. That's why we say the dead are in Hades. Jesus had the power to take His life back though, and Hades could not contain Him when He did. He broke open the gates of Hades and restored life to the dead souls there.

 

[Oblio]

When you say about joining His deity with humanity, it sounds like Christ's humanity is now the "ruling force" in terms of going to the Cross.

No, His humanity and His Deity are in perfect accord. His full humanity was necessary in order for Him to die (for God by Himself cannot die, being the author and source of life) and to join our human nature with His and sit with Him ant the Right hand of the father on His Ascension to the Father. Likewise He had to be fully God, because only God has the power to destroy death by entering into the realm of death. The Divine solution to the tragic problem of the fall and our redemption is for Christ to become fully man and fully God in order to fulfill the requirements.

I do suggest that you read the link I gave as it explains this in more detail and clarity and fidelity.

 

[GenemZ]

And where did His spirit go when only His flesh died ? When were they rejoined ?
You seem to be equating His flesh with His humanity and his spirit with God, is this true ? If so, where does Scripture state this ?

All of Jesus was God, to say that his body was human and His spirit was Divine, with the two separate is another heresy.

It was only determined by a certain council during the dark ages, that it was heresy. The same council that believed Mary was the Mother of God.

In Christ, GeneZ

 

[InnerPhyre]

So you're a Nestorian?

 

[88Devin07]

I just have to sayt that the view that Mary lived a fully sinless life is unbiblical and unchristian.

We are taught Jesus was the ONLY human to live a sinless life. We wouldn't need him if other people did.

Also, if you reply by saying others in the Bible were "righteous" then you aren't using a valid arguement. Check Strong's Concordance. Those people weren't w/o sin their whole lives. Instead, they were blessed by God.

What the angel said to Mary wasn't glorifying her b/c she was sinless, he was blessing her. You cannot take the English or Latin translations and say that is what the words mean, you have to take the original Greek words and look at what they mean.

Mary was like David, Soloman, Moses, Elijah, Noah, Job, John the Baptist, John, Paul, Zechariah, Isaiah, etc... They all had commited sins, but were all forgiven. And they walked with the Lord. They were all dedicated to their God and lived Christian lives.

I refuse to believe Mary was sinless. She didn't have to be sinless b/c only sin is inherited through the fathers according to scripture. Yes woman was the first to defy God. But man followed her and did the same as her. And man was the one who commited the first murder. That is why Jesus had to be born of a Virgin. because he couldn't inherit sin through a father.

Axion, i'm sorry but Mary wasn't sinless despite what some may say. She was very blessed yes, but she wasn't without sin. However, she was sinless from the Birth of Jesus on because she was forgiven.

 

[Oblio]

The traditional icon used by the Church on the feast of Easter is an icon of Holy Saturday: the descent
of Christ into Hades. It is a painting of theology, for no one has ever seen this event. It depicts Christ,
radiant in hues of white and blue, standing on the shattered gates of Hades. With arms outstretched
He is joining hands with Adam and all the other Old Testament righteous whom He has found there.
He leads them from the kingdom of death. By His death He tramples death.

Today Hades cries out groaning:
I should not have accepted the Man born of Mary.
He came and destroyed my power.
He shattered the gates of brass.
As God. He raised the souls I had held captive.

[c]

[/c]

 

[sawdust]

He died by His spirit (both man and God) being parted from His bodily flesh and passing into the abode of the dead.

Why would God depart from Jesus' flesh? There was no sin nature in Jesus' flesh so why would the Lord need to be parted from it?
As far as I understand the only time God forsook the Christ was on the Cross for those three hours darkness covered the land. That was when Christ was bearing our sin. And of course, God cannot be in the presence of sin, hence... "my God, my God why have you forsaken me."

Also I see others saying that Christ's spirit entered Hades, but I have been taught it was Christ's soul that went to Sheol, His spirit returned to heaven and His flesh went into the tomb.

peace