Mary

[Cliff2]

I am yet to see any Biblical support for Mary being a virgin for the rest of her life.

It is the same as some saying that Mary never sinned.

Again no Biblical support for that as well.

 

[~*ZEE*~]

Since Mary is supposedly sinless that would mean that her and Joseph never had any arguments because she was perfect and gave him no reason to be mad.

Perhaps a better illustration of Mary's human fallible nature and her capacity to sin, is the account in Luke 2 when Jesus slipped away to to speak with the adults at the temple in Jerusalem. Three days passed and Joseph and Mary could not find their son - obviously they were both worried out of their minds. When they came across Jesus at the temple Mary questioned him, seemingly incredulous to her son's insensitivity in causing them to worry.

(NKJV)
48So when they saw Him, they were amazed; and His mother said to Him, "Son, why have You done this to us? Look, Your father and I have sought You anxiously."
49And He said to them, "Why did you seek Me? Did you not know that I must be about My Father's business?" 50But they did not understand the statement which He spoke to them.

In effect, Jesus calmly rebuked his parents.

I don't know if many realise this, because it seems quite menial if not natural, but worry is actually a sin. When you worry about a situation you are in the belief that God is not capable of redeeming that situation. The Bible is full of 'do not worry'. Worrying is a sign of a lack of faith in God's sovereignity.

Therefore, it is CLEAR that Mary was human and sinful just as we all are. The good news is that we have been made righteous and pure before God because we have accepted Jesus' sacrifice for sin.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I am yet to see any Biblical support for Mary being a virgin for the rest of her life.

It is the same as some saying that Mary never sinned.

Again no Biblical support for that as well.

That's because you assume that everything you need to know about Christianity is in the Bible...

That's just your shortsightedness...

Christ is Risen!

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Perhaps a better illustration of Mary's human fallible nature and her capacity to sin, is the account in Luke 2 when Jesus slipped away to to speak with the adults at the temple in Jerusalem. Three days passed and Joseph and Mary could not find their son - obviously they were both worried out of their minds. When they came across Jesus at the temple Mary questioned him, seemingly incredulous to her son's insensitivity in causing them to worry.

(NKJV)
48So when they saw Him, they were amazed; and His mother said to Him, "Son, why have You done this to us? Look, Your father and I have sought You anxiously."
49And He said to them, "Why did you seek Me? Did you not know that I must be about My Father's business?" 50But they did not understand the statement which He spoke to them.

In effect, Jesus calmly rebuked his parents.

I don't know if many realise this, because it seems quite menial if not natural, but worry is actually a sin. When you worry about a situation you are in the belief that God is not capable of redeeming that situation. The Bible is full of 'do not worry'. Worrying is a sign of a lack of faith in God's sovereignity.

Therefore, it is CLEAR that Mary was human and sinful just as we all are. The good news is that we have been made righteous and pure before God because we have accepted Jesus' sacrifice for sin.

You have a clear misunderstanding of sin...

 

[Jamza]

It is impossible for God to have a mother. God created motherhood.

Mary could only be the mother of the humanity of Christ. The humanity which was to be manifested as Lord because of God's decree. Just as Mary was the mother of his brother and sisters. God chose the humanity of Christ as a dedicated vessel for the expression of God. But, to say Mary is the mother of God? Where was God before she gave birth?

This is why Catholics frustrate those whom you refer to as Protestants. They see Catholics accepting things to believe based upon emotional appeal. Things which do not stand up under the scrutiny of what the Scriptures declare to be truth. God always existed. He can not be born.

Remove Deity from his humanity (not that, that could happen) and you will only find humanity. Mary was the mother of his humanity which God chose to be manifested in. To say Mary gave birth to God, is to say we had to wait all these years before God existed.

Go ahead. I am sure you will argue the point. That is one of the very reasons I would never consider becoming a Catholic. What ever your church tells you, no matter what the Bible teaches, that is what you will believe. And, that is not a very noble thing to do.

Acts 17:11 niv
"Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."

I do not agree 100% with any teacher. Nor, do I agree 100% with all I have believed in the past. Christianity requires humility. Humility is the state of being correctable. One can not be correctable if their church attracts those who will not question things and accept correction when it comes their way. No one is 100% correct.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

Very good post!! Sometimes I feel (and I hope not to offend people) that while many Catholic Christians merely have priests and ''The Church'' as their mediators to God; whule many evangelicals have only one mediator, Jesus Christ (scriptural) and that for me personally I'd rather recieve directly from God than any human source.

 

[SolomonVII]

Ya, know, i'm new in working out this whole denominations thing... protestants, catholics? where do you guys differ? Where do christians fit into it? before i became a christian, i always thought that catholics and christians believed nothing the same, now i realise that it's barely even a difference... what's the whinge about?

Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox and even ancient heretics such as Nestorians are basically all Christians.
In many essential points of doctrine, the divinity of the man, Jesus, the idea of God as being the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, the atonement of mankind through the Sacrifice of Christ, the idea that our relationship with a loving God is a personal one, the Second Coming of Christ, and the judgment in the end days, there is no disagreements among the majority of Christians, whatever the denomination or tradition. Certainly, to the extent that Christians begin to interpet the faith from a totally individualistic perspective, individuals again start echoing the ancient heresies of the past, but, by and large, most Christians, be they Catholic, Orthodox, or any of the major Protestant denominations, still share the basic tenets of the faith. We all agree on who Jesus was, though some have forgotten the theology that was necessary to maintain that basic truth.

In the main, Protestants differ from the Catholic tradition that they broke away about a half a millenia ago from over the role that the Church has in the faith, and the eastern Orthodox and the western Catholic schismed a half a millenia before that over such things as the role of the pope in the Church, whether the Holy Spirit precedes from the Father and the Son, whether the Eucharist is to be of leavened bread or unleavened, and political, linguistic, and cultural differences that had existed from the very beginning.

Not to minimize the importance of the differences, but for the most part it is more a matter of pride an prejudice that keeps Christians hammering at each other today, more than any deep and abiding theological differences

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox and even ancient heretics such as Nestorians are basically all Christians.
In many essential points of doctrine, the divinity of the man, Jesus, the idea of God as being the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, the atonement of mankind through the Sacrifice of Christ, the idea that our relationship with a loving God is a personal one, the Second Coming of Christ, and the judgment in the end days, there is no disagreements among the majority of Christians, whatever the denomination or tradition. Certainly, to the extent that Christians begin to interpet the faith from a totally individualistic perspective, individuals again start echoing the ancient heresies of the past, but, by and large, most Christians, be they Catholic, Orthodox, or any of the major Protestant denominations, still share the basic tenets of the faith. We all agree on who Jesus was, though some have forgotten the theology that was necessary to maintain that basic truth.

In the main, Protestants differ from the Catholic tradition that they broke away about a half a millenia ago from over the role that the Church has in the faith, and the eastern Orthodox and the western Catholic schismed a half a millenia before that over such things as the role of the pope in the Church, whether the Holy Spirit precedes from the Father and the Son, whether the Eucharist is to be of leavened bread or unleavened, and political, linguistic, and cultural differences that had existed from the very beginning.

Not to minimize the importance of the differences, but for the most part it is more a matter of pride an prejudice that keeps Christians hammering at each other today, more than any deep and abiding theological differences

Wrong, that's ecumenisism.... how much can you change Christianity before it is something else?

Answer? None.

We are called to conform ourselves not Christianity.

Christ is Risen!

Forgive me....

 

[deu58]

Hi All

That's because you assume that everything you need to know about Christianity is in the Bible...

That's just your shortsightedness...

Christ is Risen!

Forgive me...

Mt 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

Mt 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

I am sure that everyone is aware of what the bible means when it says he knew her not, The bible teaching is very clear and very plain that after Jesus was born that Mary and Joseph had normal marital relations,

So much for perpetual virginity

yours in Christ
deu 58

 

[~*ZEE*~]

You have a clear misunderstanding of sin...

Or rather, we, as two individuals, have contrasting interpretations of sin.

Instead of poking me with a stick you could state how your understandings (as capable of being wrong as my own - mind you) differ to what I have communicated.

(why is everyone here so grumpy!?!)

 

[deu58]

Hello Lionsroar0

tradition, tradition and nothing but Tradition held the Church together for 400yrs and compiled your Bible.

fraid not

2pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

2pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Notice Peter says, as they do also the other scriptures, ? Thus claiming that Paul's letters were scriptures to. The letters of the Apostles were already considered to be scripture even while they were still alive, It was you traditions that took away from the truth of the teachings of the apostles,

Just out of curiosity, you and orthodoxusa seem to have a great disdain for the bible, as if it is a second rate work, So what do you use for instruction and guidance?

yours in Christ
deu 58

 

[Oblio]

The bible teaching is very clear and very plain that after Jesus was born that Mary and Joseph had normal marital relations,

Rather, it is your personal interpretation that is clear to you.

 

[Axion]

Mt 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

Mt 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

I am sure that everyone is aware of what the bible means when it says he knew her not, The bible teaching is very clear and very plain that after Jesus was born that Mary and Joseph had normal marital relations,

So much for perpetual virginity

So much for glib bible exposition!

Matt 28.20: "..and surely I am with you always, until the end of the age."

John 21.22: Jesus answered. "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?"

2 Sam 6.23: "no son was born to Michol, the daughter of Saul until her dying day."

In all these examples, the word "until" does not mean that Jesus will cease to be with us after the end of the age, that John was intended to die should he still be alive when Jesus returned, or that Michol had a son after death. The word "until" shows that the writer is concerned primarily to inform us what happens before a specific event - not after.

As one early reformer said:

There have been certain folk who have wished to suggest from this passage [Matt 1:25] that the Virgin Mary had other children than the Son of God, and that Joseph had then dwelt with her later; but what folly this is! For the gospel writer did not wish to record what happened afterwards; he simply wished to make clear Joseph's obedience and to show also that Joseph had been well and truly assured that it was God who had sent His angel to Mary. He had therefore never dwelt with her nor had he shared her company... And besides this, Our Lord Jesus Christ is called the first born. This is not because there was a second or a third, but because the gospel writer is paying regard to precedence. Scripture speaks thus of naming the first-born whether or not there was any question of the second."
John Calvin; "Sermon on Matthew", published 1562

 

[Ave Maria]

Mary was and is without totally sin. She is the mother of God.

 

[Axion]

Perhaps a better illustration of Mary's human fallible nature and her capacity to sin, is the account in Luke 2 when Jesus slipped away to to speak with the adults at the temple in Jerusalem...
(NKJV)
48So when they saw Him, they were amazed; and His mother said to Him, "Son, why have You done this to us? Look, Your father and I have sought You anxiously."
49And He said to them, "Why did you seek Me? Did you not know that I must be about My Father's business?" 50But they did not understand the statement which He spoke to them.

In effect, Jesus calmly rebuked his parents.

So, in effect, Jesus sinned - according to you - by failing to honour His parents???

I don't know if many realise this, because it seems quite menial if not natural, but worry is actually a sin. When you worry about a situation you are in the belief that God is not capable of redeeming that situation. The Bible is full of 'do not worry'. Worrying is a sign of a lack of faith in God's sovereignity.

The bible says to rejoice a lot too. So by this new theology when we're not rejoicing we're sinning!

 

[GenemZ]

You are separating Christ's humanity from His Divinity. This is the heresy of Nestorianism !

No...... It is simply stating where his humanity came from. Mary could not give birth to God.

God existed before Mary was born. Did his humanity? Yet, you are saying she gave birth to God. As if God can be created. Then God, is not God, but a creation.

When Jesus body laid in the tomb dead? Was that dead body God?

Jesus is the full manifestation of Deity in bodily form. Just as the burning bush was a bush with Deity being manifested. Moses saw, and spoke to that bush as if it were God himself. Now, if someone planted the seed for that bush? Would he be called the farmer of God?

The problem is you resort to name calling and accusation without understanding what was said. Its a failure to see the essence and nature of God. God can not be born. To say he can be reveals that you do not even know what God is. It is like saying God can die.

It appears you are simply following a certain teaching's buzz words without the ability to question it, and using a form letter accusation when you get stuck in running out of any ability to form a sound argument based upon the words of the Bible to take a stand.

Please? Use chapter and verse to make your stand? For your stand must be based upon the Scripture and remian consistent with what it teaches. If Mary gave birth to God, then God can die. Mary's ovum could only produce a human body. The Deity of Christ remained untouched as the humanity of Christ died. If that is nestorianism, then Nestorius was correct and that council was living in the dark. Just like the council was in the dark when it condemned Martin Luther who was light years ahead of those who condemned him.

Those were primitive days for the Church in many ways. Yet, some look to them as being more advanced than those walking in the Spirit today. They must have been more advanced back then? Why? After all, they would burn you at the stake if they saw you as walking in error. Quite a spiritual way to be. No? Think! What does the Word say! Not, what did certain men say.

John 17:17 niv
"Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth."
Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

No...... It is simply stating where his humanity came from. Mary could not give birth to God.

God existed before Mary was born. Did his humanity? Yet, you are saying she gave birth to God. As if God can be created. Then God, is not God, but a creation.

When Jesus body laid in the tomb dead? Was that dead body God?

Jesus is the full manifestation of Deity in bodily form. Just as the burning bush was a bush with Deity being manifested. Moses saw, and spoke to that bush as if it were God himself. Now, if someone planted the seed for that bush? Would he be called the farmer of God?

The problem is you resort to name calling and accusation without understanding what was said. Its a failure to see the essence and nature of God. God can not be born. To say he can be reveals that you do not even know what God is. It is like saying God can die.

It appears you are simply following a certain teaching's buzz words without the ability to question it, and using a form letter accusation when you get stuck in running out of any ability to form a sound argument based upon the words of the Bible to take a stand.

Please? Use chapter and verse to make your stand? For your stand must be based upon the Scripture and remian consistent with what it teaches. If Mary gave birth to God, then God can die. Mary's ovum could only produce a human body. The Deity of Christ remained untouched as the humanity of Christ died. If that is nestorianism, then Nestorius was correct and that council was living in the dark. Just like the council was in the dark when it condemned Martin Luther who was light years ahead of those who condemned him.

Those were primitive days for the Church in many ways. Yet, some look to them as being more advanced than those walking in the Spirit today. They must have been more advanced back then? Why? After all, they would burn you at the stake if they saw you as walking in error. Quite a spiritual way to be. No? Think! What does the Word say! Not, what did certain men say.

John 17:17 niv
"Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth."
Grace and peace, GeneZ

Really it's quite simple, we view truth to NOT be "up to us" to interpret... but up to the Church. For 2000 years, this is what the Church has said... If we deny it now we are saying that all the saints who have gone before us were wrong... They were closer to the truth than we are...

It has already been condemned as heresy... end of story for us.

Surely you realize that as time passes we move farther away from the truth.

Christ is Risen!

Forgive me...

 

[GenemZ]

Mary was and is without totally sin. She is the mother of God.

Chapter and verese, please?

That makes no sense, because Mary called the Lord her Savior. A person without sin does not need a savior. Jesus died for our sins.

Luke 1:46-47
"And Mary said:
"My soul glorifies the Lord
and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior."

It is through Adam that sin entered the world.

Romans 5:12 niv
"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned."

Eve sinned first. But sin did not enter the world until Adam sinned.

The woman's ovum does not carry the sin nature to be passed down. It is through the male in procreation who passes down the defect. That is why God could use the ovum of the sinner Mary to produce a sinless body for Jesus. God provided the genetic material needed to fertilze the ovum of Mary. This material was without defect. That is why Jesus could not have a human father.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[JimfromOhio]

Really it's quite simple, we view truth to NOT be "up to us" to interpret... but up to the Church.

I can say this, for most protestant denomination, we go strictly by the Bible rather than the "Church". Remember protestants are not traditionists. I believe this is why we are different in Theology in this matter.

Have a great day.

 

[Lynn73]

Mary was and is without totally sin. She is the mother of God.

Repeating something over and over doesn't make it so. God disagress with you because the Bible says all have sinned and there is none righteous, no not one. This is Catholic doctrine with no basis in the word of God which, in fact, says just the opposite. We're all sinners, including Mary. The Bible supports that fact, not what Catholicism says.

 

[GenemZ]

Really it's quite simple, we view truth to NOT be "up to us" to interpret... but up to the Church. For 2000 years, this is what the Church has said... If we deny it now we are saying that all the saints who have gone before us were wrong... They were closer to the truth than we are...

Was Luther wrong? Zwingly? Wycliff? Huss? They were persecuted (some murdered in the name of God) by those you are telling me not to question.

It has already been condemned as heresy... end of story for us.

I understand. You are "just following orders."

John 16:13a niv
"But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth."

I guess you do not want the Holy Spirit in you? After all, you want to have others who will do your thinking for you? Paul said that the most noble believers he met were ones who studied the Scriptures to see if what he said was correct.

Acts 17:11 niv
"Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."

We have been called to "prove all things." But, you sit there and surrender your ability to think to others who died during the dark ages?

1 Thessalonians 5:21 niv
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."

That is what we are commanded. But? You tell me?

It has already been condemned as heresy... end of story for us.

Wycliff was condemned to death by your church. You know why? Because he translated the Bible into the language of the people. What heresy! He deserved to die! (That's the end of the story for your kind).

There were power hungry maniacs back then, just as we have today. Religion over state was one of the greatest means to power. That is why the founding fathers of the United States made sure our Constitution required a separation of Church and State!

There were men in the Church who were condemned as heretics back then. John Huss was burned at the stake for preaching grace. Wycliff was put to death for translating the Bible into English!

Do you ever take the time to find out what those Councils were doing back then? Luther and Calvin escaped the stake. These councils were not always thinking in the Spirit! Yet, you see them as being your final authority.

Goes to show you..... why we have these debates.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 niv
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."

Grace and using the mind God gave me, GeneZ