Mary

[Axion]

No...... It is simply stating where his humanity came from. Mary could not give birth to God.

Then you are clearly denying the incarnation.

God existed before Mary was born. Did his humanity? Yet, you are saying she gave birth to God. As if God can be created. Then God, is not God, but a creation.

You appear to be very confused here. No-one is saying that Mary created God. But Mary gave birth to God the Son - a new person in that He is fully human and fully God. Jesus Christ. His mother is Mary.

When Jesus body laid in the tomb dead? Was that dead body God?

Jesus is the full manifestation of Deity in bodily form. Just as the burning bush was a bush with Deity being manifested. Moses saw, and spoke to that bush as if it were God himself. Now, if someone planted the seed for that bush? Would he be called the farmer of God?

This is where you hit major heresy. In comparing the burning bush with Jesus, you reveal that you either have no understanding of, or do not believe in the incarnation. God did not become a bush! He did not remain a bush. God was present temporarily in the bush.

Is this what you think the Incarnation means - the God temporarily alighted on the man Jesus? If so these are the Pagan Gnostic Heresies of Docetism and Apollinarianism. It is to these dangerous non-christian shores that you are brought in your haste to detract from the Virgin Mary.

God did not alight on the body of Jesus, and then leave it. That would be a fraud. He would not be truly human. At the Incarnation, through the Action of the Holy Spirit, God the Word took flesh and full humanity from the Virgin Mary.

A Human Nature, Body and Soul, from Mary, became indissolubly united, (whilst retaining their separate characters), with God the Word, who also retained his complete Godly nature.
This produced one PERSON with one CONSCIOUSNESS, who was called JESUS CHRIST, and is both Son of God and Son of Mary. He is known as God the Son.

The problem is you resort to name calling and accusation without understanding what was said. Its a failure to see the essence and nature of God. God can not be born. To say he can be reveals that you do not even know what God is. It is like saying God can die.

No. It is you who are in grave error, and in denial of the basic creeds of Christianity. If God did not die for our sins, we are not redeemed. It wasn't a conjuring trick. Jesus died on the cross. Because He was truly man, His death could pay for the sins of men. Because He was truly God, His death was fit price for the sins of all men. If He was not both, humanity was not redeemed!

your stand must be based upon the Scripture and remian consistent with what it teaches. If Mary gave birth to God, then God can die. Mary's ovum could only produce a human body. The Deity of Christ remained untouched as the humanity of Christ died. If that is nestorianism, then Nestorius was correct and that council was living in the dark.

At least now you admit that you have stepped into deep heresy - and Nestorianism is a major heresy - in contrast to all that Christianity teaches. You are dividing Christ into two people - one who died and one who didn't! In that, you are denying not only the incarnation but the atonement as well. You really need to reflect and reconsider. Perhaps you will then see how dangerous is the pride that you know better that all of Christianity for the last 2,000 years. This is the danger of believing that you can infallibly interpret scripture outside of the Apostolic teaching of the Church. You end up misinterpreting your way out of Christianity altogether!

I think you need to talk these matters over with a pastor of a bona-fide mainstream Christian Church who will hopefully help you see how far from the path you are straying.

 

[Oblio]

The Deity of Christ remained untouched as the humanity of Christ died. If that is nestorianism, then Nestorius was correct and that council was living in the dark.

I missed that Axion.
I have to agree with you here. What was stated is clear heresy and goes against orthodox teachings of the Gospel.

 

[~*ZEE*~]

You were saying he rebuked them as sinners.

If I had a desire to make that statement I would have said as much in those words. I said 'Jesus calmly rebuked them'. This sentence, teamed with the given scripture, reinforces that a) Jesus' parents were worrying b) this was not necessary c) Jesus was aware of His calling in a way that His parents weren't.

You are the one using illogic to make a slightly ridiculous argument - namely that worrying is a sin!! Therefore Mary is a sinner! :o

hehe, you look rather bewildered *pats you on the head* I do like that emoticon - it utters volumes. At least you consider worry as sinful only a 'slightly' ridiculous notion (There! isn't it better to speak plainly rather than exaggerate the flipside of my opinions?!)

Ok. I have been misconstrued. I used logic to illustrate that Mary was not without sin. That worrying could be considered sinful, I did not much elaborate on. Allow me to now!

When we see ourselves beginning to worry, we should recognize that we are not trusting in God. Usually there is an associated sin of trusting in other things such as money, etc. We then need to confess our sins, ask for cleansing and cry out for help.

We cannot be 'faithfully trusting God' while we are worrying. In this instance, of Jesus going missing for three days, I assume that Mary and Joseph would have been more than a little bit alarmed, even afraid for His saftey. I can imagine that, knowing the Jesus was God's Son, they would have been horrified by the images that doubt (or Satan!) played before their mind's eye.

In effect, Jesus' parents acted much the way any parent would when their young child disappears from their care for such an extended period of time - with worry, fear and doubt. The alternative was to pray, spread the word and pray with others, worship God for His faithfulness - afterall God had made promises to Joseph and Mary regarding HIS Son, they well knew that God had brought Jesus into the world to fulfill a specific purpose: 'he will save his people from their sins' (Matt 1:21). It seems that they doubted God (sin) and this lead to worry (sin, result of the 'parent' sin) and fear (sin, also the result of the 'parent' sin doubt).

"Do not fear, for I am with you;
Do not anxiously look about you, for I am your God.
I will strengthen you, surely I will help you,
Surely I will uphold you with My righteous right hand." (Isaiah 41:10)


"Be anxious for nothing,
but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving
let your requests be made known to God." (Philippians 4:6).

​

​

​

​

​

​

 

[Lynn73]

Christians have been saying it for a very long time. The Bible does not say that all have sinned this is faulty exegesis. The Bible supports the Church because the Church wrote it and compiled it.

Peace

Ro 3:23 - Show Context For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God


Ro 3:12 - Show Context They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one


Ro 3:10 - Show Context
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: Hmm, I'm sorry I must reject your doctrine about Mary. God's word doesn't agree and I'm going with that.


Oh and the Catholic church isn't the author of the Bible, God is. And I believe the Bible would exist whether or not the Catholic church existed.


http://www.bible.ca/cath-bible-origin.htm

 

[~*ZEE*~]

My thoughts exactly

 

[Lynn73]

Yes. I didn't notice any exceptions made for Mary in those passages, did you?

 

[Axion]

Ro 3:23 - Show Context For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God


Ro 3:12 - Show Context They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one


Ro 3:10 - Show Context
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: Hmm, I'm sorry I must reject your doctrine about Mary. God's word doesn't agree and I'm going with that.

Why do you bring these same old out-of-context bible verses again and again and again?
You have been given the response time and time again. yet here you are back again with the same tired rigmarole. To remind you.

Firstly, the verses you have quoted are not applied to Mary at all, but form part of an unconnected rhetorical argument on the subject of salvation.

Second Have ALL really sinned? Has Jesus, has Gabriel, have the newborn??? The verse seems to be not so absolute as you imagine.

"There was a man... whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright." Job 1:1

"And the Lord said unto Noah... thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation." Genesis 7:1

"And [Zacharias, and Elizabeth] were both righteous before God" Luke 1:6

Third, The word used for ALL in the passages (Greek PAS), is widely used in the new Testament, and DOES NOT have the meaning that protestant fundamentalists want to ascribe to it. PAS does not mean "All - 100%, no exceptions". It is a looser, rhetorical word.

John 12:19, "All (pas) the world has gone after him!" Did everyone in the entire world really go after Christ?

Mt 3:5-6, "Then went out to Him Jerusalem, and ALL (PAS) Judea, and ALL (PAS) the region about the Jordan; and they were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins."
Were all of the people of Judea, and the region about the Jordan baptized?

Luke 2:1 "And an order went out from Caesar Augustus that ALL (PAS) the world should be counted."
Was everyone in the whole world counted?

Unless PAS means "All - 100% without exceptions", which it clearly does not, its use in Romans cannot be used as an argument against the sinlessness of Mary.

Oh and the Catholic church isn't the author of the Bible, God is. And I believe the Bible would exist whether or not the Catholic church existed.

The Bible would not exist without the Church. Jesus left us the church, not a book. It is clinging to the notion of a book as the sole pillar of faith that has already led one person on this thread to throw aside belief in the incarnation. yet you don't seem at all concerned about that. You persist in your obsession with trying to "prove" that the Mother of Christ was a sinner!

 

[katherine2001]

Lynn, do you think that the New Testament would have just dropped out of heaven if the Church hadn't written it? You don't think they were inspired by the Holy Spirit in writing the books and that the Holy Spirit didn't lead those who chose the books? If they didn't, then you can't trust what is in the Scriptures.

Axion is right. The whole idea of Sola Scriptura is unscriptural, as is thinking that the Scriptures are the pillar and ground of the truth. 1 Tim. 3:15 makes it quite clear that it is the Church (and the Church of Rome was not the original church, it started in Jerusalem and James was its bishop) is the pillar and ground of the truth. Without the Church there to watch over interpretations of the Scriptures, it can mean whatever people want it to, and that is why there are hundreds (if not thousands) of different churches instead of the one that Christ wanted and prayed for. Unfortunately, often when people say that the Scriptures are infallible, what they really mean is that their particular interpretation of the Scriptures is infallible, and that those who disagree with them are wrong. When the Scriptures are interpreted within the Church that wrote them and lived them, then they can authoritatively say who has the wrong interpretation (and it could be both people who are wrong).

Like it or not, if Mary is not the Mother of God, then Jesus was not divine at the time of His conception and birth. He was just a regular human being and His divinity came upon Him at a later time, probably at His baptism when the dove descended upon His shoulder (this is Nestorianism, which was condemned by the Orthodox Church as a heresy in the 4th Century). Since a mother is mother to all that her child is, if He was always divine, then she is mother to that as well, as the Son of God in the Flesh had two natures (divine and human) in His person. They are distinct, but cannot be separated. Jesus was not two persons. He was one person with two natures. He still has both natures today.

 

[katherine2001]

Genez, God can be born. Jesus was a person of the Trinity, the Son of God, and He was begotten by God and of exactly the same essence. When He became Incarnate (took on Human flesh, human nature, and a human will), He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary. He was carried in her womb for 9 months and she gave birth to Him, like it or not. The only way your views could be correct would be if His divinity came upon Him later and He was not divine when He was born. Is that what you believe?

 

[deu58]

Hello Axiom

Matt 28.20: "..and surely I am with you always, until the end of the age."

John 21.22: Jesus answered. "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?"

2 Sam 6.23: "no son was born to Michol, the daughter of Saul until her dying day."

Ok let me see if I got this right,

Matt 28:20 Jesus is not really with us today,

Johm 21:22The word "if "is not in the original writings so Jesus was not speaking metaphorically,

2 SAM 6:23 Michal the daughter of Saul did not have any children until after she died,

These are some great examples you have used,

Mt 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

It is the false teachings of your traditions that take away from biblical truth, It was the Catholic church that started the belief that Joseph was much older than Mary and all the other children of Joseph were from a previous marriage, You can not find support for that in the Bible,
In Fact,

Mt 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

Mt 2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:

The Bible teaches that it was Mary, Joseph and Jesus who went Egypt, Where are his brothers and sisters?

The Catholics keep saying that their traditions are based on the teachings of the Apostles, Are they really?

1. Presbyters, or elders,were first called priests by Lucian... 2nd century A.D.
2. Prayers for the dead... 300 A.D.
3. The veneration of angels and dead saints and the use of images... 375 A.D.
4. The Mass as a daily celebration was adopted... 394 A.D.
5. The beginning of the exaltation of Mary, and the first use of the term "Mother of God:" by the Council of Ephesus... 431 A.D.
6. Priests began to dress different from the laity and to wear special clothes... 500 A.D.
7. Extreme Unction... 526 A.D.
8. The doctrine of purgatory was first established by Gregory the Great... 593 A.D.
9. Prayers began to be offered to Mary, dead saints, and angels... 600 A.D.
10. The first man was proclaimed "Pope" (Boniface III)... 610 A.D.
11. Veneration of the cross, images, and relics authorized... 788 A.C.
12. Holy water, mixed with a pinch of salt and blessed by a priest was authorized in... 850 A.D.
13. Veneration of Saint Joseph... 890 A.D.
14. College of cardinals begun... 927 A.D.
15. Canonization of dead saints, first by Pope John XV... 995 A.D.
16. The Mass developed gradually as a sacrifice, attendance was made obligatory in... 11th century A.D.
17. The celibacy of the priesthood was decreed by Pope
18. The rosary, or prayer beads (copied from Hindus and Muslums) was introduced by Peter the Hermit... 1090 A.D.
19. The Inquisition of "Heretics" was instituted by the Council of Verona... 1184 A.D., and was legalized and promoted by the Fourth Lateran Council in l2l5 A.D.
20. The sale of indulgences... 1190 A.D.
21. The seven sacraments defined by Peter Lombard... 12th Century A.D.
22. The dogma of transubstantiation was decreed by Pope Innocent III... 1215 A.D.
23. Confession of sins to the priest at least once a year was instituted by Pope Innocent III in the Lateran Council... 1215 A.D.
24. The adoration of the wafer (host) decreed by Pope Honorius III... 1220 A.D.
25. The scapular invented by Simon Stock of England... 1251 A.D.
26. The doctrine of purgatory proclaimed a dogma by the Council of Florence... 1439 A.D.
27. Tradition is declared of equal authority with the Bible by the Council of Trent... 1545 A.D.
28. The Apocryphal Books were added to the Bible by the Council of Trent... 1546 A.D.
29. The Immaculate Conception of Mary was proclaimed by Pope Pius IX in 1854 A.D.
30. Pope Pius IX condemns all scientific discoveries not approved by the Roman Church... 1864 A.D.
31. Infallibility of the pope in matters of faith and morals proclaimed by the First Vatican Council... 1870\tab A.D.
32. Pius XI condemned the public schools... 1930 A.D.
33. Pius XI reaffirmed the doctrine that Mary is "The Mother of God"... 1931 A.D.
34. The dogma of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary was proclaimed by Pope Pius XII... 1950 A.D.
35. Mary was proclaimed the Mother of the Church by Pope Paul VI... 1965 A.D.
    
    And you mock us for following the bible rather than your manmade traditions??
    
    yours in Christ
    deu 58

 

[Oblio]

It was the Catholic church that started the belief that Joseph was much older than Mary and all the other children of Joseph were from a previous marriage, You can not find support for that in the Bible,

If that is so, please explain why the Orthodox Church (and Anglicans, and Lutherans, and the Reformers ...) believes that the Theotokos was Ever Virgin and Joseph was indeed an older guardian of her ?

The Catholics keep saying that their traditions are based on the teachings of the Apostles, Are they really?

1. Presbyters, or elders,were first called priests by Lucian... 2nd century A.D.
2. Prayers for the dead... 300 A.D.
3. The veneration of angels and dead saints and the use of images... 375 A.D.
4. The Mass as a daily celebration was adopted... 394 A.D.

<snip rest of the Boettner myths>

I invite you and everyone else to peruse the scholarly sticky in OBOB that refutes this anti-Catholic/anti-Orthodox, in fact anti-Christian list dreamed up by the polemical Boettner.

 

[Oblio]

The "Boettner List": Fact or Fiction?

 

[Isidore_AK]

Sorry Isidore_AK,

I was defending Orthodoxy not intending on laying blame where it did not belong... that was not my intention.

The poster said that he was put to death... I was trying to say that it wasn't the Orthodox Church.... If the Catholic Church didn't kill him, I'm glad to hear it...

Christ is Risen!

Forgive me...

No Problem! I just start to get grouchy when people bring up non-existant 'facts'. Didn't mean to bite! The original poster was probably thinking of Tyndale, who *was* put to death, but for an entirely different reason...

 

[MidnightBlue]

I understand as a non-catholic, the main reason there is controversy over this matter is because of the doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary, a Catholic doctrine. I am only saying this why non-catholic do not believe as same as Catholic believe. This is my personal spiritual belief.

The fact that Jesus had brothers and sisters who were obviously the offspring of Mary and Joseph does not in any way take away from Jesus' identity.

Well now, the idea that Jesus had brothers and sisters who were the offspring of Mary and Joseph is (1) not a fact and (2) not obvious. Nor is a belief in the perpetual virginity of the Mother of God a doctrine peculiar to Catholicism. Not only Catholics, but also Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary, as did Luther, Calvin and Zwingli.

The theory (not fact) that after giving birth to God Incarnate Mary went on to become an average mother and housewife developed only later in Protestantism, and the great reformers were untouched by this innovation. Even today, it's not accepted by all Protestants, many of whom (a minority, to be sure) still hold to the traditional teaching.

Those who deny the perpetual virginity of the Mother of God should at least understand that their belief is not explicitly taught by scripture, and that the vast majority of Christians throughout the ages would have agreed with St. Basil: "The friends of Christ do not tolerate hearing that the Mother of God ever ceased to be a virgin."

 

[Saint_George]

Ro 3:23 - Show Context For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God


Ro 3:12 - Show Context They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one

What about Jesus. He didn't sin. I guess to you he is just an exception. After all his word passed down through men doesn't matter to most of you. Therefor he is just a man in a book, and the books said he sinned, and that he didn't. make up your minds. mary didn't sin.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Hello Axiom

Matt 28.20: "..and surely I am with you always, until the end of the age."

John 21.22: Jesus answered. "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?"

2 Sam 6.23: "no son was born to Michol, the daughter of Saul until her dying day."

Ok let me see if I got this right,

Matt 28:20 Jesus is not really with us today,

Johm 21:22The word "if "is not in the original writings so Jesus was not speaking metaphorically,

2 SAM 6:23 Michal the daughter of Saul did not have any children until after she died,

These are some great examples you have used,

Mt 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

It is the false teachings of your traditions that take away from biblical truth, It was the Catholic church that started the belief that Joseph was much older than Mary and all the other children of Joseph were from a previous marriage, You can not find support for that in the Bible,
In Fact,

Mt 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

Mt 2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:

The Bible teaches that it was Mary, Joseph and Jesus who went Egypt, Where are his brothers and sisters?

The Catholics keep saying that their traditions are based on the teachings of the Apostles, Are they really?

1. Presbyters, or elders,were first called priests by Lucian... 2nd century A.D.
2. Prayers for the dead... 300 A.D.
3. The veneration of angels and dead saints and the use of images... 375 A.D.
4. The Mass as a daily celebration was adopted... 394 A.D.
5. The beginning of the exaltation of Mary, and the first use of the term "Mother of God:" by the Council of Ephesus... 431 A.D.
6. Priests began to dress different from the laity and to wear special clothes... 500 A.D.
7. Extreme Unction... 526 A.D.
8. The doctrine of purgatory was first established by Gregory the Great... 593 A.D.
9. Prayers began to be offered to Mary, dead saints, and angels... 600 A.D.
10. The first man was proclaimed "Pope" (Boniface III)... 610 A.D.
11. Veneration of the cross, images, and relics authorized... 788 A.C.
12. Holy water, mixed with a pinch of salt and blessed by a priest was authorized in... 850 A.D.
13. Veneration of Saint Joseph... 890 A.D.
14. College of cardinals begun... 927 A.D.
15. Canonization of dead saints, first by Pope John XV... 995 A.D.
16. The Mass developed gradually as a sacrifice, attendance was made obligatory in... 11th century A.D.
17. The celibacy of the priesthood was decreed by Pope
18. The rosary, or prayer beads (copied from Hindus and Muslums) was introduced by Peter the Hermit... 1090 A.D.
19. The Inquisition of "Heretics" was instituted by the Council of Verona... 1184 A.D., and was legalized and promoted by the Fourth Lateran Council in l2l5 A.D.
20. The sale of indulgences... 1190 A.D.
21. The seven sacraments defined by Peter Lombard... 12th Century A.D.
22. The dogma of transubstantiation was decreed by Pope Innocent III... 1215 A.D.
23. Confession of sins to the priest at least once a year was instituted by Pope Innocent III in the Lateran Council... 1215 A.D.
24. The adoration of the wafer (host) decreed by Pope Honorius III... 1220 A.D.
25. The scapular invented by Simon Stock of England... 1251 A.D.
26. The doctrine of purgatory proclaimed a dogma by the Council of Florence... 1439 A.D.
27. Tradition is declared of equal authority with the Bible by the Council of Trent... 1545 A.D.
28. The Apocryphal Books were added to the Bible by the Council of Trent... 1546 A.D.
29. The Immaculate Conception of Mary was proclaimed by Pope Pius IX in 1854 A.D.
30. Pope Pius IX condemns all scientific discoveries not approved by the Roman Church... 1864 A.D.
31. Infallibility of the pope in matters of faith and morals proclaimed by the First Vatican Council... 1870\tab A.D.
32. Pius XI condemned the public schools... 1930 A.D.
33. Pius XI reaffirmed the doctrine that Mary is "The Mother of God"... 1931 A.D.
34. The dogma of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary was proclaimed by Pope Pius XII... 1950 A.D.
35. Mary was proclaimed the Mother of the Church by Pope Paul VI... 1965 A.D.
    
    And you mock us for following the bible rather than your manmade traditions??
    
    yours in Christ
    deu 58

Where in the world did you get that list of dates?

Who is teaching this?

Is it Roman Catholic? Most of the dates seem to pertain to the RCC.... and some of it, especially the early dates are just plain wrong....

Christ is Risen!

Forgive me....

 

[Oblio]

Where in the world did you get that list of dates?

Who is teaching this?

Loraine Boettner, one of Dave Hunt's heros. Both are virulent anti-Catholic and anti-Orthodox polemicists. Neither are very scholarly.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Loraine Boettner, one of Dave Hunt's heros. Both are virulent anti-Catholic and anti-Orthodox polemicists. Neither are very scholarly.

As a Presbyterian for 11 years (Baptist before that) , you would think that I would know...

Oh well, just shows how far off base some "Theologians" are.....

Christ is Risen!

Forgive me...

 

[deu58]

Hi Oblio

Well, Lions roar did say he wanted see some one with credentials so,

Loraine Boettner

Loraine Boettner (1901-90) was a graduate of Princeton Theological Seminary (Th.B, 1928; Th.M., 1929) and received the honorary degree of Doctor of Divinity in 1933 and the degree of Doctor of Literature in 1957. He taught Bible for eight years in Pikeville College, Kentucky. While there he married in 1932. He was a member of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church of USA. In 1937 he began working at the Library of Congress and the Bureau of Internal Revenue. Though working in an environment which was not related to Biblical studies or Theology, he still continued to write, producing many books at this stage of his life.

yours in Christ
deu 58

 

[deu58]

Hi Isidore

No Problem! I just start to get grouchy when people bring up non-existant 'facts'. Didn't mean to bite! The original poster was probably thinking of Tyndale, who *was* put to death, but for an entirely different reason...

Where are we taught in the NT that the Church has the authority to put any one to death for not accepting its doctrines?

Do you really believe that a church who dug up dead people, put them on trial and then had the dead person "executed" is being led by the Holy Spirit and is following the traditions of the Apostles???

yours in Christ
deu 58