Mary

[Oblio]

There have always been false teachings. Right from the beginning.

I agree, these are called heresies and they are rooted out and defeated by the Church.

The scripture is all that is to be trusted.

May I ask what specifically you base this on ? And this very board, and the plethora of Protestant denominations attest to the fact that that rationale is frought with peril and error.

Even the founders of your young Christian movement believed in the Perpetual Virginity of the Theotokos, and that she was to be called the Mother of God. It is only in recent American Chrstianity that these timeless truths have been cast aside.

 

[Axion]

53When Jesus had finished these parables, he moved on from there. 54Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. "Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?" they asked. 55"Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56Aren't all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?"

The point is that while James and Joses are mentioned as Jesus's BROTHERS in Matthew 13:55, it is made clear in Matthew 27:56 and Mark 15:40 that their mother was ANOTHER Mary.

Matthew 27:56 "Among them (the women watching from A Distance) were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's sons."

We learn elsewhere that Judas is also a brother of james and Joses.
In fact nowhere in scripture is anyone other than jesus referred to as Son of Mary.

In fact if all the people listed as "Brothers and Sisters" of Jesus in these verses were actually siblings, Mary would have had to have had at least SEVEN surviving children after Jesus (meaning about TWENTY babies considering infant mortality at the time)! Strange that NONE of these supposed hordes of very young children appears or hinders Mary and Joseph from dropping everything to chase after Jesus when He is found in the temple at age 12.

Jesus' brothers and sisters were subsequent to Jesus' birth (see also Matt. 12: 47). I understand as a non-catholic, the main reason there is controversy over this matter is because of the doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary, a Catholic doctrine. I am only saying this why non-catholic do not believe as same as Catholic believe. This is my personal spiritual belief.

Wrong. The whole spectrum of Apostolic Christianity Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic, Syriac, Armenian, - all the Ancient churches have always taught Mary's perpetual virginity. Even the leaders of the protestant reformation taught this. Only a few recent protestant groups have dared to invent new teachings to say that the Virgin Mary was not a virgin, that Jesus was part of an illegitimate family group and other scandalous accusations.

The fact that Jesus had brothers and sisters who were obviously the offspring of Mary and Joseph does not in any way take away from Jesus' identity. Jesus remains "the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" (Jn. 1: 29). He is truly the Son of God (Jn. 3: 16).

A) This is not true. Mary had no other children. The "brethren" of Jesus are kinsmen, for this is all the word means in the tongue of 1st century Palestine.

B) Saying Jesus was one of a mixed group of children of different fathers does indeed diminish His uniqueness. Having given birth to God the Son, Mary has other children? Where God has been, the man Joseph followed in a manner any Jew would have found utterly sacrilegious? And either Jesus was illegitimate - or else the presumed "other sons" were - which is it?

 

[Amongst the Flock]

Since Mary is supposedly sinless that would mean that her and Joseph never had any arguments because she was perfect and gave him no reason to be mad.

Remember Jesus grew up just like all of us except he didn't sin. Suppose Jesus was 5 and he did his chores and helped out around the house and lets say he dropped a bowl and it broke. Dropping a bowl isn't a sin but say Joseph got mad and yelled at him and Mary stepped in and said Don't you yell at him like that. Saying that she was sinless states that she never raised her voice, never had a lustful thought, never had any sinful thoughts or sinful actions etc. etc. etc.

And your response is but tradition, but tradition, but tradition.

Love, Joy, and Peace to all.

 

[hoser]

In the Bible, Mary is Humble and obedient. Calls herself “the handmaid of the Lord.”

Mary was only the Mother of Jesus as man. The Incarnation means that Jesus was both fully God and fully man. Mary was only the mother of Jesus as man, and not the mother of Jesus as God.

However, Jesus was BOTH man AND God. What you and other protestants do is try to divide the divinity of Christ into two separate beings, man and God. While He was BOTH man AND God, these cannot be separated. He was always BOTH man AND God. So if one says that Mary was the mother of Jesus the man is also to say that Mary was the mother of Jesus as God.

Luke 1:43
And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Elizebeth says the "mother of my lord" What is she referring to? It is obvious that she is referring Lord as God here. What else would she mean by saying the mother of my lord then? Elizebeth's Lord IS God, and she is talking to Mary who is the mother of her Lord God, Jesus.

 

[hoser]

Since Mary is supposedly sinless that would mean that her and Joseph never had any arguments because she was perfect and gave him no reason to be mad.

Yes, Mary was sinless, but huh? Joseph was never claimed to be sinless. How in the world would this mean that they never had any arguments? Your little argument is very weak.

 

[st. jerome]

Well Ive NEVER said you worship her.

And im not saying you ever have said that im just saying ive come across a few who have.

I have said that the commandment CLEARLY states NOT to make a IMAGE and BOW to it.
And I do believe you all do practice that.

Do we really have to get back on the subject of BOWING.

I dont.
No reason she had to be, nor does the scripture state she was.

Do you beleive mary was the mother of god? if so then dont you think god would have made a perfect "vessel" to conceive Gods Son?

 

[Amongst the Flock]

Yes, Mary was sinless, but huh? Joseph was never claimed to be sinless. How in the world would this mean that they never had any arguments? Your little argument is very weak.

I am going to pray to Saint Deception so he can give me a better scenario.

Then I will pray to all the other Saints for more help.

 

[God Child]

The Hail Mary (catholic prayer) is scriptural
Hail Mary, full of grace, the lord is with you!- (Luke 1:28)

-i thought that was just Gabriel's comforting way of saying hi

Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb-
(Luke 1:42)

-elizabeth via HS was comfirming the coming of Jesus-comfort to mary i think

Holy Mary- (Luke 1:30)

-hmm mines says she has found favor with God

Mother of God- (Luke 1:43)

-praise God!

Pray for us sinners- as we christians pray for one another

Now and at the hour of our death. Amen.


I just don't see anywhere that shows we need to ask saints whom have passed to pray for us...I think all christains are saints, is that true?

Romans 8

26In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for (BB)we do not know how to pray as we should, but (BC)the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;
27and (BD)He who searches the hearts knows what (BE)the mind of the Spirit is, because He (BF)intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
28And we know that [c]God causes (BG)all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are (BH)called according to His purpose.

1 john 2
1(A)My little children, I am (B)writing these things to you so that you may not sin And if anyone sins, (C)we have an [a](D)Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

 

[lionroar0]

who cares tho?
There have always been false teachings. Right from the beginning.

The scripture is all that is to be trusted.

read my signature.

And how were these disputes resolved? Here's are 2 clues;

1. 325 AD

2. it's one of the rules of this forum and it was done with out a bible.

Biblically the council of Jerusalem. ( If I remember right)

By Church counsil.

Peace

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

In the Bible, Mary is Humble and obedient. Calls herself “the handmaid of the Lord.”

Mary was only the Mother of Jesus as man. The Incarnation means that Jesus was both fully God and fully man. Mary was only the mother of Jesus as man, and not the mother of Jesus as God. According to the Bible, the world was created through Jesus. This was long before Mary was born. Hebrews 1:1-2 says,

“God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds”.

Colossians 1:16-17 says,

“For by him [Jesus] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers; all things [including Mary] were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things [including Mary] , and by him all things consist”.

Mary was also a normal wife and mother who had other children.

No offence Jim, but I think you owe it to yourself to find out about Nestorianism.. http://www.carm.org/heresy/nestorianism.htm (very short)

Just a suggestion.....

BTW, The other children were Josephs from a previous marriage.

Christ is Risen!

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Well Ive NEVER said you worship her.

I have said that the commandment CLEARLY states NOT to make a IMAGE and BOW to it.
And I do believe you all do practice that.

Great! Nor will we worship her...

Christ is Risen!

Forgive me...

 

[lionroar0]

Since Mary is supposedly sinless that would mean that her and Joseph never had any arguments because she was perfect and gave him no reason to be mad.

Remember Jesus grew up just like all of us except he didn't sin. Suppose Jesus was 5 and he did his chores and helped out around the house and lets say he dropped a bowl and it broke. Dropping a bowl isn't a sin but say Joseph got mad and yelled at him and Mary stepped in and said Don't you yell at him like that. Saying that she was sinless states that she never raised her voice, never had a lustful thought, never had any sinful thoughts or sinful actions etc. etc. etc.

And your response is but tradition, but tradition, but tradition.

Love, Joy, and Peace to all.

tradition, tradition and nothing but Tradition held the Church together for 400yrs and compiled your Bible.


You have recieve your answer just not to your satisfaction and why should it be to your satisfaction??? Why should the Church change something to satisfy you?

 

[God Child]

I think the Holy Spirit played a part in mary's inpregnation, so i wouldn't give marry all the credit..respect, my goodness indeed!

BTW, The other children were Josephs from a previous marriage.

Joseph, like the carpenter joseph whom married marry? that's news to me, i would never make such a claim, if he were married before then...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I understand how catholic are feeling about this, as a non-catholic, I am only saying this (my belief) because Mary was married to Joseph and of these verses:

53When Jesus had finished these parables, he moved on from there. 54Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. "Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?" they asked. 55"Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56Aren't all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?" 57And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown and in his own house is a prophet without honor."

In the original text of the Gospel, we find the Greek word adelphos, meaning "brother," used. However, adelphos does not just mean blood brothers born of the same parents. Rather, adelphos was used to describe brothers not born of the same parents, like a half-brother.

Jesus' brothers and sisters were subsequent to Jesus' birth (see also Matt. 12: 47). I understand as a non-catholic, the main reason there is controversy over this matter is because of the doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary, a Catholic doctrine. I am only saying this why non-catholic do not believe as same as Catholic believe. This is my personal spiritual belief.

The fact that Jesus had brothers and sisters who were obviously the offspring of Mary and Joseph does not in any way take away from Jesus' identity. Jesus remains "the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" (Jn. 1: 29). He is truly the Son of God (Jn. 3: 16).

Actually Joseph and Mary were only bethrowed... the ceremony of marriage never took place...

Mary had no other children.....

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/evervirgin.aspx
"Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut." (Ezekiel 44:2).
This has always been interpreted by the Fathers of the Church to be a typological reference to the Virgin Mary and the Incarnation. When we consider that God took flesh from the Virgin's womb, it is not difficult to imagine that this womb would remain virgin.

The bottom line is this has been the consistent and universal view of the Church from the time of the Apostles until today.

Christ is Risen!

Forgive me.....

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I think the Holy Spirit played a part in mary's inpregnation, so i wouldn't give marry all the credit..respect, my goodness indeed!





Joseph, like the carpenter joseph whom married marry? that's news to me, i would never make such a claim, if he were married before then...

You may not realize it but Joseph was a very old man... not the young man we typically see in the western Nativity sets....

Christ is Risen!

Forgive me....

 

[GenemZ]

Mother of God- (Luke 1:43)

It is impossible for God to have a mother. God created motherhood.

Mary could only be the mother of the humanity of Christ. The humanity which was to be manifested as Lord because of God's decree. Just as Mary was the mother of his brother and sisters. God chose the humanity of Christ as a dedicated vessel for the expression of God. But, to say Mary is the mother of God? Where was God before she gave birth?

This is why Catholics frustrate those whom you refer to as Protestants. They see Catholics accepting things to believe based upon emotional appeal. Things which do not stand up under the scrutiny of what the Scriptures declare to be truth. God always existed. He can not be born.

Remove Deity from his humanity (not that, that could happen) and you will only find humanity. Mary was the mother of his humanity which God chose to be manifested in. To say Mary gave birth to God, is to say we had to wait all these years before God existed.

Go ahead. I am sure you will argue the point. That is one of the very reasons I would never consider becoming a Catholic. What ever your church tells you, no matter what the Bible teaches, that is what you will believe. And, that is not a very noble thing to do.

Acts 17:11 niv
"Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."

I do not agree 100% with any teacher. Nor, do I agree 100% with all I have believed in the past. Christianity requires humility. Humility is the state of being correctable. One can not be correctable if their church attracts those who will not question things and accept correction when it comes their way. No one is 100% correct.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[Oblio]

Mary could only be the mother of the humanity of Christ.

You are separating Christ's humanity from His Divinity. This is the heresy of Nestorianism !

 

[Lynn73]

I understand how catholic are feeling about this, as a non-catholic, I am only saying this (my belief) because Mary was married to Joseph and of these verses:

53When Jesus had finished these parables, he moved on from there. 54Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. "Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?" they asked. 55"Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56Aren't all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?" 57And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown and in his own house is a prophet without honor."

In the original text of the Gospel, we find the Greek word adelphos, meaning "brother," used. However, adelphos does not just mean blood brothers born of the same parents. Rather, adelphos was used to describe brothers not born of the same parents, like a half-brother.

Jesus' brothers and sisters were subsequent to Jesus' birth (see also Matt. 12: 47). I understand as a non-catholic, the main reason there is controversy over this matter is because of the doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary, a Catholic doctrine. I am only saying this why non-catholic do not believe as same as Catholic believe. This is my personal spiritual belief.

The fact that Jesus had brothers and sisters who were obviously the offspring of Mary and Joseph does not in any way take away from Jesus' identity. Jesus remains "the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" (Jn. 1: 29). He is truly the Son of God (Jn. 3: 16).

It's a Catholic assumption that Mary had no sex and no other children after Jesus. It doesn't have biblical support. Nor is it preposterous to believe she lived a normal married life. Imho, it's preposterous to think she didn't.

 

[Jeremiah31_3]

Ya, know, i'm new in working out this whole denominations thing... protestants, catholics? where do you guys differ? Where do christians fit into it? before i became a christian, i always thought that catholics and christians believed nothing the same, now i realise that it's barely even a difference... what's the whinge about?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

It's a Catholic assumption that Mary had no sex and no other children after Jesus. It doesn't have biblical support. Nor is it preposterous to believe she lived a normal married life. Imho, it's preposterous to think she didn't.

It's not a Catholic assumption, it's an Orthodox fact.... that's where the Catholics got it from....

Joseph never married Mary only was Bethrowed.... and Mary never had any other children...

You simply do not acknowledge that "The Church" predates (NT) scripture and is the author of it and thereby the authority on it.

I will repeat myself...

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/evervirgin.aspx

"Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut." (Ezekiel 44:2).

This has always been interpreted by the Fathers of the Church to be a typological reference to the Virgin Mary and the Incarnation. When we consider that God took flesh from the Virgin's womb, it is not difficult to imagine that this womb would remain virgin.

The bottom line is this has been the consistent and universal view of the Church from the time of the Apostles until today.

Christ is Risen!

Forgive me.....