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Mary Sinless?

dinomight

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Yes, but again, all that means is SOMEONE is teaching the truth.

It doesn't mean any organization or any specific group of people are teaching the truth.

Its entirely possible that, as some say, the entire "church" was not following God as soon as a few hundred years after Christ.

Is that what happened? I don't know, but it is POSSIBLE, because all that is necessary is that someone is teaching it somewhere, not that a group of people specifically are...

Well, I think I've defended my views as well as I can tonight, and you've admirably defended yours too. I, personally, don't think it's possible that the entire church was not following God at that time, but it's just an opinion of course. I continue to surprise myself because I keep defending Catholicism, but I guess I'm just at a point in my spiritual development where I have a strange mix of views running through my mind.

I do want to clarify one more time that I'm not questioning the salvation of anyone who has a true relationship with Jesus Christ. I'm thankful beyond words that He died for my sins and offered hope of a glorious, eternal life in the presence of God. Praise God for His unending mercy for us.

Good night.
 
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larry_boy_44

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Well, I think I've defended my views as well as I can tonight, and you've admirably defended yours too. I, personally, don't think it's possible that the entire church was not following God at that time, but it's just an opinion of course. I continue to surprise myself because I keep defending Catholicism, but I guess I'm just at a point in my spiritual development where I have a strange mix of views running through my mind.

I do want to clarify one more time that I'm not questioning the salvation of anyone who has a true relationship with Jesus Christ. I'm thankful beyond words that He died for my sins and offered hope of a glorious, eternal life in the presence of God. Praise God for His unending mercy for us.

Good night.

I understand, I'm not wililng to say they were not following God either... I guess my point is that we can't assume they were correct just because they are who they were or they "were the church" or anything... because them calling themselves something doesn't mean they are what they claim to be...

and I 100% agree with the second paragraph...
 
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calluna

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I'm saying that the much-too-late 'church fathers' would not have been so called had they been right. They were in any case a minuscule group in comparison to Christians, who must have numbered into many thousands to force the empire to change its ways. They cannot be supposed to be in any way representative of the church, of which nothing has survived other than the New Testament; it would of course be very surprising if anything had survived, other than copies of NTs, which could not be suppressed. None of the works of these 'fathers' were canonised, and that can only be because they were not acceptable to Christians. The 'ECFs' were mostly monarchical bishops, which are utterly inimical to Christianity, though just what a control-freak emperor wanted- and they have survivors' guilt in spades. 'Toadies' is a fair description for them.

If she was even half what she is made out to be, it is incredible that the whole NT was written without a single good word written about Mary. Paul wrote of Jesus, 'born of a woman', indicating his ordinariness, and the woman's. The case of the Vatican/EOC is truly mind-boggling beyond description. I don't know how anyone can come to a place like this and defend it.

Illegality meant that those 'leaders', such as Miltiades, who survived until the empire finally gave in and recognised that Christianity was not going to go away, were so weakened and compromised that they did exactly as Constantine and his successors told them- or they too would have perished. The imperial 'church' carried over all the main characteristics of Roman paganism, including virgin cult, and whitewashed them with a lick of (Judaised) Christianity. The result was pretty well the opposite of apostolic teaching, utterly unrecognisable from the church of Peter and Paul.

bump
 
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Kat8765

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The Catholic Church had taught the same things from the beginning of Christianity. There are plenty of ancient writings out there that pre-date the New Testament which have been found to be historically accurate. But, I know you probably won't accept this so....
Let's just say that during the times of Christian persecution all of the Churches teachings were distorted and lost and the only thing that survived was the New Testament. Your telling me that after Christianity was accepted again, that the Vatican was just handing out information that they just made up? So then all the Early Church Fathers were given false information or they came up with it on their own. Then this bogus information was taught until the 16th century unchallenged. Then Luther Calvin, among others, came along to set it right. Oh, but wait, you don't think even those reformers were credible. Does this make sense to you? How do you even know what to believe? With your way of thinking, how do you know that even the New Testament is a credible source?
 
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calluna

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The Catholic Church had taught the same things from the beginning of Christianity.
Roman Catholic teaching has evolved over the centuries, as RCs themselves have to admit. It's still changing, seemingly being trimmed according to the prevailing wind.

There are plenty of ancient writings out there that pre-date the New Testament which have been found to be historically accurate.
Such as?

Let's just say that during the times of Christian persecution all of the Churches teachings were distorted and lost and the only thing that survived was the New Testament. Your telling me that after Christianity was accepted again, that the Vatican was just handing out information that they just made up?
As prophesied- by Peter, ironically.

Then this bogus information was taught until the 16th century unchallenged.
Until the Renaissance (and indeed before then). Two scholars of Paris University told the pope that he was a phoney right back in 1324. The Lollards, then Wyclif, were saying that and more soon after. Now before their era, Europe had contained a tiny population of mostly very impoverished people, who spent most of their waking hours on the land, unable to read or write, and with minds full of the most amazing superstitions, that modern minds can barely comprehend. It really isn't an achievement to claim to be the church in those conditions. And when it is realised that any challenge to this bogus information was met with sword and flame, it is not an achievement that too many people want to be associated with, surely.

Then Luther Calvin, among others, came along to set it right.
Only partially. What they did was re-form Catholicism to make it look Christian. That's why they were called Reformers. They attempted to contain Christianity within man-made limits, not establish it. They were very much the friends of Catholics, as many of their followers are to this day.

how do you know that even the New Testament is a credible source?
For the same reason that the RCC is forced to try to make some positive reference to it, rather than to its own contradictory authority. One might be forgiven for thinking that the RCC would prefer people to be atheists rather than Protestants.
 
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Super Kal

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the problem I have with this teaching is that Mary was still a human being... the Bible has said that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and all means all... Mary included.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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the problem I have with this teaching is that Mary was still a human being... the Bible has said that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and all means all... Mary included.


Does "all" include Jesus? What about babies, does this statement include them? How about the mentally challenged, them too?

Jim
 
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Super Kal

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all means all... did Jesus have the chance to sin? He did. Satan even tempted Him in the desert when jesus fasted, wanting Him to sin, and yet Jesus rebuked Satan with scripture.

the Bible does not waiver just because of a birth defect or age... but free will does play a part in it, and that's why I believe that babies do go to heaven because they did not have the chance to choose for themselves. Does that mean that they were born perfect? absolutely not. there was no perfect person in this world besides Christ. Had those children gone on to live their life, they would of sinned, because human nature is sinful. The circumstance that they died at birth does not mean that they would of lived sinless lives.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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all means all... did Jesus have the chance to sin? He did. Satan even tempted Him in the desert when jesus fasted, wanting Him to sin, and yet Jesus rebuked Satan with scripture.

the Bible does not waiver just because of a birth defect or age... but free will does play a part in it, and that's why I believe that babies do go to heaven because they did not have the chance to choose for themselves. Does that mean that they were born perfect? absolutely not. there was no perfect person in this world besides Christ. Had those children gone on to live their life, they would of sinned, because human nature is sinful. The circumstance that they died at birth does not mean that they would of lived sinless lives.


But taking the verse literally as you are doing, "all have sinned," by your interpretation, means all, no exceptions.

However, it not the case. When Paul wrote this, babies had not sinned, and its possible, that some babies would never sin, because they died before they reached the age of reason. Its also possible that some humans may have never sinned.

So, it is also possible and we Catholics believe it to be so, that Mary, was conceived without original sin, and lived a life without sin.

From here, its a matter of faith. We believe it, you don't, but it is not necessary to believe to receive salvation.

Jim
 
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JimR-OCDS

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So is it ok if we do not take "This is my Body" literally?


From Scripture alone? No, we could not take it literally. However, if we look at the teachings of the Apostles and the Fathers of the early Church, it is clear what Jesus meant.

That being said, its a far cry from taking the word, "all" literally. :cool:

Jim
 
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Clifford B

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I would never discount the benefit of intercession. It has a long and usefull history in scripture. I have not found any mention of anyone who has died performing intercession. The rich man who died, while Lazarus went to Abraham...was not able to gain any traction in that cuase whatsoever. The debate could rage on with that one, however, due to him ending on the wrong side of a great chasm.
The prayers of the righteous...Moses, Daniel, et al...were all before death. I am pretty confident that no one in Judaism prays to Moses for any reason. It seems rather obvious that God is the target.
 
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Kat8765

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Roman Catholic teaching has evolved over the centuries, as RCs themselves have to admit. It's still changing, seemingly being trimmed according to the prevailing wind.

The Catholic Church had never wavered from infallible teachings such as doctrines and dogmas. These will never change.

Such as?

Letters and texts were written by men such as Justin Martyr, Ignatius, and others right before and around the time the Gospels were written. In their writings, they support the NT but also write about the early Church. They wrote about the Eucharist,the cannon of the mass, the liturgy of the word etc... all things that are still tradition in the Catholic Church.

As prophesied- by Peter, ironically.

Really?

Until the Renaissance (and indeed before then). Two scholars of Paris University told the pope that he was a phoney right back in 1324. The Lollards, then Wyclif, were saying that and more soon after. Now before their era, Europe had contained a tiny population of mostly very impoverished people, who spent most of their waking hours on the land, unable to read or write, and with minds full of the most amazing superstitions, that modern minds can barely comprehend. It really isn't an achievement to claim to be the church in those conditions. And when it is realised that any challenge to this bogus information was met with sword and flame, it is not an achievement that too many people want to be associated with, surely.

What makes them credible sources. Lots of people challenge the Catholic Church, but the funny thing is no one has broken it for over 2000 years. Pretty good record if you ask me.



For the same reason that the RCC is forced to try to make some positive reference to it, rather than to its own contradictory authority. One might be forgiven for thinking that the RCC would prefer people to be atheists rather than Protestants.

Where do you get this stuff? The Catholic Church is forced to make some positive reference to the Bible? Have you been to a Catholic mass? The whole mass is the Bible. And we want people to atheists if they are not Catholic? Do you really believe that?
 
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calluna

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From Scripture alone? No, we could not take it literally.
But the RCC knows better, and says we must, and has said so for centuries.

However, if we look at the teachings of the Apostles... it is clear what Jesus meant.
It isn't, and the RCC's leaders know that very well, else they could persuade Protestants. And they know that 'Fathers' are regarded as heretics by others, so they cannot sensibly use their authority alone. They must stamp their feet and insist on literality. But all that the RCC has in reality is the sayings of those many regard as heretics.

Double standards prevail.

It is absurd to use babies and the mentally challenged as excuses, anyway, because they sin, too. All 'in Adam' sin, all sinned, including Mary, who needed 'my Saviour', and is no more useful to people than any other dead person, except by necromancy.

All will bow their knees before Jesus, sooner or later. Make it sooner, people. There is no soft, mother's way into heaven. The offense of the cross must be taken.
 
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calluna

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The Catholic Church had never wavered from infallible teachings such as doctrines and dogmas.

It has only two of those, and they are recent!


Justin Martyr, Ignatius, and others right before and around the time the Gospels were written.
The Pharisees, Herod and Judas were around before the gospels were written.

Really. Catholics never seem to read the works of their first pope!

the funny thing is no one has broken it for over 2000 years
No doubt the Mafia will be around in 2000 years.

The whole mass is the Bible.

...doctored beyond recognition.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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calluna;

But the RCC knows better, and says we must, and has said so for centuries.

Actually the RCC has never taught that we must interpret Scripture literally and use it alone(Sola Scriptura), but must use Tradition and the teachings handed down by the Apostles and thier successors.

The Church came before the Bible and is the pillar and foundation of truth.

But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth. 1 Timothy 3:15

Also, if we were to interpret the following Scripture literally, without the understanding given to us by the founding fathers of the church;

"Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. John 6:53-55

We would have to conclude Jesus is talking about cannibalism.



It isn't, and the RCC's leaders know that very well, else they could persuade Protestants. And they know that 'Fathers' are regarded as heretics by others, so they cannot sensibly use their authority alone. They must stamp their feet and insist on literality. But all that the RCC has in reality is the sayings of those many regard as heretics.

Huh?



It is absurd to use babies and the mentally challenged as excuses, anyway, because they sin, too.

How can a baby sin?

All 'in Adam' sin, all sinned, including Mary, who needed 'my Saviour', and is no more useful to people than any other dead person, except by necromancy.

The Church never taught that Mary didn't need our Saviour, but that her salvation came in anticipation of the redemption given through Jesus Christ.

All will bow their knees before Jesus, sooner or later. Make it sooner, people. There is no soft, mother's way into heaven. The offense of the cross must be taken.

And who says that anyone, including Mary, do not bow their knees before Jesus?

The fact is, in Marian doctrine and devotion, she always points to Jesus as the way to salvation.

Jim
 
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larry_boy_44

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But taking the verse literally as you are doing, "all have sinned," by your interpretation, means all, no exceptions.

However, it not the case. When Paul wrote this, babies had not sinned, and its possible, that some babies would never sin, because they died before they reached the age of reason. Its also possible that some humans may have never sinned.

So, it is also possible and we Catholics believe it to be so, that Mary, was conceived without original sin, and lived a life without sin.

From here, its a matter of faith. We believe it, you don't, but it is not necessary to believe to receive salvation.

Jim

umm... Jesus was God... If you read the whole verse the person referenced it reads "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God"

it gives quite an easy out as to why Jesus is the exception (as Jeus is God)...

Unless Mary is God, she can't be an exception.
 
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larry_boy_44

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Where do you get this stuff? The Catholic Church is forced to make some positive reference to the Bible? Have you been to a Catholic mass? The whole mass is the Bible. And we want people to atheists if they are not Catholic? Do you really believe that?

you need to study up on your history.

Justin Martyr and Ignatious were decades (if not a century) after the New Testament writings were written.
 
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