Mary Omniscient and Omnipresent?

[Resha Caner]

... It IS Christ's body ...

I suppose it is a matter of degree ... what exactly one means by the above statement. I, too, believe in the Church, but you put a different emphasis on it.

Again, there are many ways to slice it, and I don't know if this is a good way to do it, but if disbelief in the Church were a 0, and pantheism were a 10, you seem somewhere around a 6 or 7 - what could be called panentheism, whereas I am more around a 3 or 4.

I would put more emphasis on the parables of the wedding banquet, where we participate in the banquet of the king, but we are not the king ... or where Christ is the groom and the Church is the bride.

 

[snowpumpkin]

Ah, you are a funny man.


Regarding the genuine Lutheran position on Soul Sleep, I can only refer you to your own home forum, http://www.christianforums.com/f367/, DaRev is very knowledgeable and willing to help honest inquirers, or to the LCMS Christian Cyclopedia article on the subject: Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod - Christian Cyclopedia. If you aren't a Confessional Lutheran, then I don't know what to say to you. You are free to believe whatever wind of doctrine catches your whim.


As for the rest of your post and your latest reply to Rus, as I said I'm not interested in debate, or in your pretense. If you are genuinly interested, and not just looking for an argument, I will refer you to Augsburg and Constantinople: The Correspondence between the Tubingen Theologians and Patriarch Jeremiah II of Constantinople. Now, I am done casting pearls. Good day.

That was rather ignorant and unnecessary.

 

[Protoevangel]

That was rather ignorant and unnecessary.

Thanks for reminding me pumpkin, I had all but forgotten about this thread. I still owe Resha an answer to one of his posts... Maybe if it quiets down a bit today.

 

[snowpumpkin]

I don't think they are mitigating, in that every time one who has reposed is seen with some form of awareness in Scripture, stems to reason that souls are aware of whatever God wants them to be aware of.



be interesting to hear what he says

I guess I know the Orthodox thoughts on that verse but it could mean that he will make sure everyone is prepared prior to his departure so that after his death, they will have everything they need.

You have to remember that Orthodox theology is extremely apophatic. As a terrible Orthodox, which I am, my take on it is that we know that physically dead Christians are still alive in Christ spiritually at this point. No one can argue otherwise that the saints are praying for us as it says so right in the scripture. We know they are praying for us but we do not know if they hear our prayers and intercede on an individual basis. So we pray for their intercession just in case.

When you say "...no one prior to Gregory..." what you must realize is that that has to mean "No one that we know of" or, as is more often the case, "No one that I know of (yet)".

Case in point right there.

 

[Protoevangel]

No one can argue otherwise that the saints are praying for us as it says so right in the scripture. We know they are praying for us but we do not know if they hear our prayers and intercede on an individual basis. So we pray for their intercession just in case.

Actually, the Saints do respond, intercede, and even visit us, so we do know that they can hear us.

But it's true, how this happens is a mystery. We don't know if they can hear every prayer or not. We only know, from the testimony of the Church, that God does allow it, at least some of the time.

 

[Protoevangel]

That was rather ignorant and unnecessary.

By the way, if you thought that was bad, I have sad news for you. You will get to see a lot of unpleasantries from me. Not something I'm proud of... Something I can only hope comes less and less often...

FYI, I did attempt an apology (note, it wasn't a very good one). Hopefully you will find that to be just a bit less ignorant and unnecessary: Post #67.

I am sorry that my ignorance has offended you.

 

[snowpumpkin]

Actually, the Saints do respond, intercede, and even visit us, so we do know that they can hear us.

But it's true, how this happens is a mystery. We don't know if they can hear every prayer or not. We only know, from the testimony of the Church, that God does allow it, at least some of the time.

There are anecdotel stories in church Tradition. This is something, well like everything else I guess, that you have to take on faith. It's one thing if your sister tells you that a Saint visited her. It's another thing when church Tradition tells you of stories that happened in far off places, in far off times.

By the way, if you thought that was bad, I have sad news for you. You will get to see a lot of unpleasantries from me. Not something I'm proud of... Something I can only hope comes less and less often...

FYI, I did attempt an apology (note, it wasn't a very good one). Hopefully you will find that to be just a bit less ignorant and unnecessary: Post #67.

I am sorry that my ignorance has offended you.

We're all sinners so I'm no better than you are. It just wasn't a nice thing to say, that's all. I have plenty of my own sins, too.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

While the current Catechism is very speciific in how she is to be venerated, there are many past and present that go far beyond that. And hence one of the reasons I am interested in EO and EC because they seem to put theotokos in the right relationship to the trinity.

If interested, there was an excellent review on the issue that did a good job clarifying many of the concerns you noted...from an Orthodox perspective and one that also addresses the EC views as well. It can be found at the following:

• Why Evangelicals Need Mary | Orthodox-Reformed Bridge

 

[Protoevangel]

There are anecdotel stories in church Tradition. This is something, well like everything else I guess, that you have to take on faith. It's one thing if your sister tells you that a Saint visited her. It's another thing when church Tradition tells you of stories that happened in far off places, in far off times.

Yes, the Church gives us assurance in Her Tradition that we do know that the Saints hear our prayers and intercede for us on an individual basis.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Yes, the Church gives us assurance in Her Tradition that we do know that the Saints hear our prayers and intercede for us on an individual basis.

yep, and if you look at Scripture (also a part of Church Tradition), it's pretty clear to see as well, in my opinion.

 

[snowpumpkin]

yep, and if you look at Scripture (also a part of Church Tradition), it's pretty clear to see as well, in my opinion.

Can you point it out in the scriptures?

 

[Protoevangel]

Can you point it out in the scriptures?

If the Saints are offering our prayers to God (as shown in Scripture that I have already presented), I'm not sure how we would assume that the Saints do not hear those same prayers themselves?

Then, in Hebrews 12, we are told about the "great cloud of witnesses" who surround us. Who are they exactly, except for the "the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven"?

A few resources that may help you understand:
Orthodox Church in America
The Saints The Great Cloud Of Witnesses - The Arena - Ancient Faith Radio
Sunday of Orthodoxy — Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
St. John the Baptist - Orthodoxy 101 Q&A
Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA - All Saints Sunday

 

[Eastern Drifter]

When you address Mary, she will know. Much like sending an email over the digital world, praying is sending a message to someone through the spiritual realm. That's not to say she's necessarily aware what you had for breakfast three weeks ago, or how long you're destined to wait in line at the grocery store.

Given deification, however, you could very well construct an argument for her being omniscient. She, along with hundreds of other saints, are one with God while retaining their identities. It's possible she can continually feed from God's knowledge.