Mary, mediator of all graces

[Tigg]

Davidnic what a wonderful post! Thank you much.

 

[isshinwhat]

Agreed!

 

[Newbie2]

One caveat about grace: when I talk about grace I mean only God's unmerited favour towards men - nothing more.

 

[Newbie2]

I take Wolseley's point about intercession: Jesus alone intercedes for us for our salvation. We can pray for others which is a different meaning of the term 'intercede.'

The only thing I would add is that we can talk directly to Jesus. We don't need to ask Mary to ask her Son for us.

I know that in James it teaches that faith without works is dead. If a person truly believes in Jesus, then the Holy Spirit will produce good works in their lives. If there is never any fruit then the person hasn't believed. It doesn't mean that you have to do certain things such as be baptised to be saved

The cake story was very interesting. You see, I don't believe that Jesus lets us add to the work of salvation. Salvation is his work alone. Once we are saved through faith then God graciously uses us to effect his plans in the world. We can work alongside him to see his purposes come about.

I'll come above board here:
I don't believe that salvation is dependant upon our works and I want others to be free of that false idea. I also want to check that I haven't misunderstood what Catholics believe.

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, it is no longer by works, if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

Titus 3:5
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."

Ephesians 2: 8-9
For by grace you have been saved, through faith; and this not of yourselves: it is the gift of God - not by works lest any man boast.

 

[Newbie2]

Note that one of the above verses talks about the washing of regeneration, not the washing of Baptism. Also, note the role of the Holy Ghost in salvation.

Here's another useful verse:
Romans 4:4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation.

But salvation is the gift of God. Therefore it cannot be by works.

 

[benedictaoo]

actually that is incorrect- in that verse, baptism is the washing and the regeneration and this is not the palce to debae this.

 

[Wolseley]

Precisely. How do we know how Mary viewed herself? ? We go to the word of God.

Mary viewed herself as every other human, but a bondslave of the Lord. Some interpetations state it as a "Handmaiden" Fully human.

The entire mission of Mary, according to Catholic theology, can be summed up in John 2:5. She points to Jesus and says "Do whatever He tells you."

The only thing I would add is that we can talk directly to Jesus. We don't need to ask Mary to ask her Son for us.

Yes, we can, and should, talk directly to Jesus. But what's wrong with asking someone else to pray for you as well? If I'm going into the hospital for an operation, and you say, "I'll pray for you," I am not going to say, "Don't bother---I don't need you to talk to God for me, I can do that myself."

The cake story was very interesting. You see, I don't believe that Jesus lets us add to the work of salvation.

We do. We believe that what you do will effect your outcome, for good or bad. Because while salvation is a gift, we don't think that you can simply sit around and say, "I'm saved, that's all I need to do." Faith without works is dead. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

I'll come above board here:
I don't believe that salvation is dependant upon our works and I want others to be free of that false idea.

We'll have to disagree on that one. And, as mentioned, you cannot debate Catholic doctrine in this specific forum---you'll have to go to General Theology for that one.

I also want to check that I haven't misunderstood what Catholics believe.

We'll have to disagree on that one as well. We have explained to you what we believe, and you have responded with "I don't believe that." Which is fine, nobody is asking you to, but it's clear from your response that you still don't understand the theology the way Catholics do.

Note that one of the above verses talks about the washing of regeneration, not the washing of Baptism. Also, note the role of the Holy Ghost in salvation.

You've actually inadvertantly done a pretty good job of describing how Catholics view the seven sacraments. A sacrament (baptism, Holy Communion, matrimony, etc.) is a physical act which provides the believer with spiritual benefit---or an action that God uses to impart grace.

But you still have to have the gumption to at least do the physical part. And believe in the grace that is imparted.

But salvation is the gift of God. Therefore it cannot be by works.

Yeah, I think we got that part. Message received and acknowledged. We disagree on the works part, but we do understand where you're coming from. Further debate on that specific topic is beating a dead horse, I'm afraid.

 

[Tigg]

My oh my Wolseley! Great post!

My suggestion to Newbie is to re-read over this thread. There are great posts and those which explain about the Mother of God. I thank you for your posts as you have brought out the responses which are so correct and done in an excellent way - clearly stated. May God bless you and walk with you always.

 

[_Shannon_]

One caveat about grace: when I talk about grace I mean only God's unmerited favour towards men - nothing more.

When I talk about grace, I talk about the indwelling of the Triune God within us--the very life of our souls. When I talk about graces, I talk about the unmerited favour of God towards humankind.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Is this a popular teaching among the RC faithful? If so, can you elaborate on it and maybe give me some source material from 1st millenium patristics? thanks

It's not dogma.. I think many Catholics do believe it but some don't, I'm not sure, sorry

I came across this for the early Church reference:

Apparently, the first use of the title Mediatrix as applying to Our Lady was used by St. Ephraem (373): "I call upon you, Mediatrix of the world; I invoke your prompt protection in my necessities." In his fourth sermon on Our Lady, he calls her “dispensatrix of all gifts... Mediatrix of the whole world.” [4]

A Father of the Council of Ephesus, Antipater of Bostra, wrote, "Hail, you who acceptably intercede as a Mediatrix for mankind." (In S. Joannem Bapt., PG, 1772C) [5] St. Andrew of Crete (660-740) referred to Mary as the "Mediatrix of the law and grace” and that “she is the mediation between the sublimity of God and the abjection of the flesh.”

of course only Christ is the Mediator for our salvation between the Father and mankind. Mary's mediation is not separate from His, but secondary and only by God's grace. Her mediation is a mediation of intercession, while Christ's is of course greater than that. Hope that helps!

God bless

 

[MoNiCa4316]

We should clarify that the teaching of Mary as Mediatrix of All Graces, which the church has neither condemned nor affirmed, is different from the affirmation of the Church that Mary is Mediatrix of Grace.

For myself, I reject the idea of Mary as either Mediatrix of All Graces or Co-Redemptrix, and regard the latter as heresy. I note the present Pope dislikes the idea, too.

Whether or not it has been taught by Popes and saints, Mary as Mediatrix of All Grace is not the teaching of the Church, and no-one is bound to affirm it. Quite the opposite, I would say.

the Pope never said that Co-Redemptrix is heresy, he said that the title is misleading and that other titles are better to illustrate this concept, - and the concept is not heretical.

A lot of people who reject Co-Redemptrix thinks it means "Co-Redeemer", but it's Latin not English, and actualy means "woman with the Redeemer".

I suppose that's why the Pope said the term is hard to understand

 

[MoNiCa4316]

A lot of people are quoting the verse that Jesus is the only Mediator...

YES that's true, Jesus is the only Mediator between us and the Father for our salvation.

Mary's mediation is that of intercession by which I mean prayer. It's different. That's what "Mediatrix" means. It doesn't conflict with the verse... after all the Catholic Church fully accepts Scripture as public revelation! But the teachings are also revelation. This teaching only contradicts the verse when "Mediatrix" is understood in the wrong way.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Regarding salvation by grace....

we too believe we're saved by grace. But not faith alone. We believe that we cooperate with grace through our good works, that's part of true faith. The only part in Scripture that says the words "faith alone", are saying that faith alone is dead.

Because we believe that we need works for salvation does NOT mean that we believe that we can earn salvation. We need works to prove our faith and make it 'real and alive', and to cooperate with grace. It doesn't mean we 'work up' to Heaven or that we can 'deserve' it. That's a big misunderstanding of Catholic teaching which I also had when I was a Protestant.

 

[Tigg]

For some reason, one of the most beautiful songs in the world, I offer for all of us.

The Priests sing Ave Maria - YouTube

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Lovely song thanks for sharing!

 

[Simon_Templar]

The Catholic view on Mary is one of the things that keeps me uneasy about becoming Catholic.

I can accept the existing dogmas for the most part but when I see statements to the effect that no one can come to Jesus except through Mary, I find it pushing a little too far. I worry that I am going to get myself into a situation were I accept the dogmas and then find myself beset by abuses that the Church tacitly approves.This is especially a concern because none of my family or friends are Catholic and its already bad enough trying to defend my views and the Church without having to try and deal with that.

The way I see it, it is the calling of all Christians to exercise the ministries of Jesus Christ in some way shape or form... thus under Christ, as his servants, we work to save, to teach,to advocate, to intercede to mediate, etc.

I have no problem accepting that Mary has fulfilled this role more perfectly and as such is the highest example of all that is sainthood.

However, even though Jesus may use a saint as a minister of his mediation and he may use them as advocates for us... they are never imposed between him and us. Even the suggestion that Mary is necessarily imposed between us and Christ, I can not accept. I pray the Church never endorses such an idea.

 

[Regina Coeli]

Even the suggestion that Mary is necessarily imposed between us and Christ, I can not accept.

Then you cannot accept the Incarnation. It's as simple as that. Christ has already decreed that He would come to us through her Immaculate Womb. That's really the end of the matter.

And I dislike the you are speaking of a negative imposition. It's as if you are saying there can be some conflict in the relationship between Mary and Jesus. If you truly understood what it really means for Mary to be His Mother then you would realise the truth of these doctrines.

I pray the Church never endorses such an idea.

Too late.

 

[Regina Coeli]

Dear Simon,
It looks like you are remembering it's by Christ alone that we can come to God. Please remember that it is by grace we are saved through faith and not by works lest any man boast. Please don't join a church that is very unclear on that.
Blesings

Please obey the forum rules.

 

[Newbie2]

Have been rethinking a bit about what I wrote before on the James 2 verse. Have put an extract from an article about this. What do you think?

" In the same way, James says, "faith without works is dead." What does he mean? Works are to faith what the body is to the spirit. The body displays the life of the spirit. Work displays faith. The only way I can display that I am alive is with my body (movement, pulse, etc.). The only way that I can display that I have faith is by my works.

If you have faith but no works, you simply cannot demonstrate to another that you have faith. That is the point James is making when he says, "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works (James 2:18)."


James speaks of justification by works before men. Paul speaks of justification by faith before God. Dr. C. I. Scofield makes the following observation in the Scofield Bible: "(These are two aspects of one truth). Paul speaks of that which justifies man before God, via: faith alone, wholly apart from works: James of the proof before men, that he who possesses to have justifying faith really has it. Paul speaks of what God sees-faith; James of what men see-works, as the visible evidence of faith. Paul draws his illustration from Genesis 15:6, James from Genesis 22:1-19. James's key-phrase is 'ye see' (James 2:24), for men cannot see faith except as manifested through works."

James teaches salvation by faith without works in James 2:23, "...Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness..." This is a quote from Genesis 15:6 where Abraham gets saved. James 2:21,22 is an illustration from Abraham's life forty years after he was saved. It illustrates, or proves Abraham's faith to others. "Seest thou" James 2:22. In plain English this is saying that you can see by Abraham's willingness to slay Isaac that he had faith.



"But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name (John 20:31)

P.S. I'm sorry this is all highlighted in yellow. Can't seem to get rid of it!

 

[Wolseley]

Have been rethinking a bit about what I wrote before on the James 2 verse. Have put an extract from an article about this. What do you think?

" In the same way, James says, "faith without works is dead." What does he mean? Works are to faith what the body is to the spirit. The body displays the life of the spirit. Work displays faith. The only way I can display that I am alive is with my body (movement, pulse, etc.). The only way that I can display that I have faith is by my works.

If you have faith but no works, you simply cannot demonstrate to another that you have faith. That is the point James is making when he says, "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works (James 2:18)."


James speaks of justification by works before men. Paul speaks of justification by faith before God. Dr. C. I. Scofield makes the following observation in the Scofield Bible: "(These are two aspects of one truth). Paul speaks of that which justifies man before God, via: faith alone, wholly apart from works: James of the proof before men, that he who possesses to have justifying faith really has it. Paul speaks of what God sees-faith; James of what men see-works, as the visible evidence of faith. Paul draws his illustration from Genesis 15:6, James from Genesis 22:1-19. James's key-phrase is 'ye see' (James 2:24), for men cannot see faith except as manifested through works."

James teaches salvation by faith without works in James 2:23, "...Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness..." This is a quote from Genesis 15:6 where Abraham gets saved. James 2:21,22 is an illustration from Abraham's life forty years after he was saved. It illustrates, or proves Abraham's faith to others. "Seest thou" James 2:22. In plain English this is saying that you can see by Abraham's willingness to slay Isaac that he had faith.



"But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name (John 20:31)

P.S. I'm sorry this is all highlighted in yellow. Can't seem to get rid of it!

The Catholic Church bases it's interpretation of James (as it does with all other Scripture, by the way) on both the Scriptures and on Apostolic Tradition. (Apostolic Tradition is the body of oral teaching that Christ passed on to the Apostles, but wasn't written down until the Patristic Age. It is every bit as much the inerrant Word of God as the Bible is, and it has nothing to do with the "traditions of men".)

So, Catholics interpret Scripture and Tradition in light of each other, while Protestants interpret Scripture in light of itself; thus, Catholics and Protestants can take the very same verses of Scripture, and come up with totally different interpretations.

It's nice that you share with us your interpretation of James; but I'm afraid for any Catholic who knows the first thing about magesterial hermaneutics, it simply won't hold a lot of water.