Mary, mediator of all graces

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JacktheCatholic

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JacktheCatholic

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Rumor has it that John Paul wanted to make it dogma, but did not do so for fear of harming the chances of a reunion with the Eastern Orthodox Church.

I have not heard this before but it sounds like a wise decision. The RCC seeks healing and mending from the Schism with the Orthodox churches.
 
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Tigg

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Jesus is my only mediator with God. Mary ican intercee for me. Mary is not God in any sense of the word, God - nor, IMO, does she ever want to be. She follows God's will. I think we (collectively) want to make her like unto God or God but IMO that is wrong.

If I be wrong, please clearly give me scripture and or teaching that shows such.

Edit: Mary is what I should strive to be like. Total submission to God and His will. Nor worship but be like.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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Jesus is my only mediator with God. Mary ican intercee for me. Mary is not God in any sense of the word, God - nor, IMO, does she ever want to be. She follows God's will. I think we (collectively) want to make her like unto God or God but IMO that is wrong.

If I be wrong, please clearly give me scripture and or teaching that shows such.

Edit: Mary is what I should strive to be like. Total submission to God and His will. Nor worship but be like.

This is where theology delves into the hierarchy of Heaven. Jesus is King with His mother Mary (Theotokos) as Queen. I think the rest in Heaven will be like princes and princesses. But even with that we have ECFs that wrote of levels in Heaven. So, in regards to Mary, though she is not divine she does hold a special position in that hierarchy as Queen.
 
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Tigg

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This is where theology delves into the hierarchy of Heaven. Jesus is King with His mother Mary (Theotokos) as Queen. I think the rest in Heaven will be like princes and princesses. But even with that we have ECFs that wrote of levels in Heaven. So, in regards to Mary, though she is not divine she does hold a special position in that hierarchy as Queen.

Special position is right. Queen, ok. But that is not God and never will be. There is no one like Mary. And Joseph IMO is special as well.

There are those in some religions whose goal is to become a god. There is only One God. Mary is not included in that. No one is. Trinity yes but it is never a fourbul-ity. What an awful made up word! lol. Or for nuts wanting to be a god a zillionity. Mercy I better leave - going a bit far out but I am sure ya get my point. No disrespect to Mary, the Mother of God, ever.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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Special position is right. Queen, ok. But that is not God and never will be. There is no one like Mary. And Joseph IMO is special as well.

There are those in some religions whose goal is to become a god. There is only One God. Mary is not included in that. No one is. Trinity yes but it is never a fourbul-ity. What an awful made up word! lol. Or for nuts wanting to be a god a zillionity. Mercy I better leave - going a bit far out but I am sure ya get my point. No disrespect to Mary, the Mother of God, ever.

Yes. The Catholic Church makes that clear too. If there are any in the Catholic Church that elevate Mary higher than a creature and treat her as a God then they are sadly mistaken.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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I agree that Mary was not divine. And the bible teaches that there is one mediator between God and man: Jesus Christ.

Please pray for me. :crossrc:


*note: praying for jackthecatholic will constitute mediating on his behalf. be warned!!!
 
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Tigg

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I agree that Mary was not divine. And the bible teaches that there is one mediator between God and man: Jesus Christ.

She is the Mother of God, blessed and to be honored much. I would kneel at her feet in thanks for saying yes to God. There are no words to express how thankful I am to her. And being mindful that Jesus does listen to His Mother, I ask her to pray for me. She is full of grace and I have so little of grace. She, with her life, has much to teach me. Always taking me to her Son.

God bless and Happy New Year.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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She is the Mother of God, blessed and to be honored much. I would kneel at her feet in thanks for saying yes to God. There are no words to express how thankful I am to her. And being mindful that Jesus does listen to His Mother, I ask her to pray for me. She is full of grace and I have so little of grace. She, with her life, has much to teach me. Always taking me to her Son.

God bless and Happy New Year.

This just came to mind and I think my memory is sound but please correct me if I am wrong. I think two people are said to be full of grace in scripture, Jesus and Mary. I am gonna do a search. I hope my memory serves.
 
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Regina Coeli

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Christ is the sole mediator of salvation. No one questions this. Our Lady's role as Mediatrix of All Graces and Co-Redemptrix, does not interfere with Our Lord's role as sole Redeemer of mankind. To say that it interferes would be the same as saying that a priest in the confessional interferes with Our Lord's role as Mediator. Or the Church altogether.

To deny Our Lady's role for such a reason is to be a Protestant.

We should clarify that the teaching of Mary as Mediatrix of All Graces, which the church has neither condemned nor affirmed, is different from the affirmation of the Church that Mary is Mediatrix of Grace.

For myself, I reject the idea of Mary as either Mediatrix of All Graces or Co-Redemptrix, and regard the latter as heresy. I note the present Pope dislikes the idea, too.

Hm. Yet the Church has a Feast Day in honour of Our Lady as Meadiatrix of All Graces. But not a Feast Day for Our Lady, Cool Woman but not All That. To regard Our Lady's role as Co-Redemptrix as heresy is foolish. It is essentially a denial of Our Lord's Incarnation. Good job sport.

You can note Pope Benedict's theological opinion if you wish. I will bring forth hundreds of saints, mystics and popes that affirm this doctrine.
 
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OuterWater

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The wording "Mediatrix of All Graces" is very confusing, and I have to admit that I found it confusing even when I was Roman Catholic. At the time, I took it to mean what my grandmother taught me it meant, which is that all the grace that God now gives to mankind on a daily basis comes through the Virgin Mary. It seems to me that it may be even intentionally confusing and intentionally vague so as to create an umbrella for unpopular beliefs, while falling back on valid beliefs as an explanation.

If Pope John Paul II held back on dogmatizing this for the sake of preventing further rifts between East and West, he was wise. To say "God became incarnate through the Virgin Mary" is perfectly Orthodox. To say "Salvation came to mankind by the incarnation of God through the Virgin Mary" is also perfectly Orthodox. To call the Theotokos "Mediatrix of All Graces" however, seems to imply that she is still the primary source through which God gives His grace to mankind, which is might cause most Orthodox to cringe. Even if that's not what is meant by it, it seems like a very bad term because of what it might imply.

We can all agree that she intercedes for us and perhaps even that her prayers are the most important of all the prayers of all the saints since the mother holds great sway with the Son. If the title indicates only her intercessory power, it seems strange, since all the saints do the same that she does through their prayers for us.
 
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eastcoast_bsc

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The wording "Mediatrix of All Graces" is very confusing, and I have to admit that I found it confusing even when I was Roman Catholic. At the time, I took it to mean what my grandmother taught me it meant, which is that all the grace that God now gives to mankind on a daily basis comes through the Virgin Mary. It seems to me that it may be even intentionally confusing and intentionally vague so as to create an umbrella for unpopular beliefs, while falling back on valid beliefs as an explanation.

If Pope John Paul II held back on dogmatizing this for the sake of preventing further rifts between East and West, he was wise. To say "God became incarnate through the Virgin Mary" is perfectly Orthodox. To say "Salvation came to mankind by the incarnation of God through the Virgin Mary" is also perfectly Orthodox. To call the Theotokos "Mediatrix of All Graces" however, seems to imply that she is still the primary source through which God gives His grace to mankind, which is might cause most Orthodox to cringe. Even if that's not what is meant by it, it seems like a very bad term because of what it might imply.

We can all agree that she intercedes for us and perhaps even that her prayers are the most important of all the prayers of all the saints since the mother holds great sway with the Son. If the title indicates only her intercessory power, it seems strange, since all the saints do the same that she does through their prayers for us.


Exactly. I completely agree, the language used seems to be designed to cause ambiguity among the flock. It cannot be supported by scripture unless one wants to play the game of mental gymnastics.

I heard it said by someone who was Orthodox, that in the East, the things that cannot be explained are allowed to remain a mystery and in the West we haver a need to define every mystery, even at the expense of flirting with being wrong.

I tend to agree. Growing up a Catholic and one who in later life, started to read the scripture in a consistent way. There seems to be a disconnect as to what I read in the Word of God and some of what those in the Catholic church expouse to be Christian doctrine.

I might pick your brain some time, if that that is cool with you.
 
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OuterWater

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Exactly. I completely agree, the language used seems to be designed to cause ambiguity among the flock. It cannot be supported by scripture unless one wants to play the game of mental gymnastics.

I heard it said by someone who was Orthodox, that in the East, the things that cannot be explained are allowed to remain a mystery and in the West we haver a need to define every mystery, even at the expense of flirting with being wrong.

I tend to agree. Growing up a Catholic and one who in later life, started to read the scripture in a consistent way. There seems to be a disconnect as to what I read in the Word of God and some of what those in the Catholic church expouse to be Christian doctrine.

I might pick your brain some time, if that that is cool with you.

Pick away.
 
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ivebeenshown

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It cannot be supported by scripture unless one wants to play the game of mental gymnastics.
Now I'm not very Marian myself but the word 'mediator' can be used in different contexts. When the bible says there is one mediator between God and men, what is the connotation of the word 'mediator'? What is being mediated? A covenant. Mary did not mediate the New Covenant between us -- Christ did, with his blood.

If that verse was to be taken at absolute face value, then people would not be able to come to the salvific Truth by preaching, because every preacher is mediating in the sense of preaching.

Christ is the one mediator between God and men in terms of actually establishing the covenant of salvation. Sometimes friends or family members or even strangers mediate between us and God by bring us closer to that salvation.
 
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Tigg

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The wording "Mediatrix of All Graces" is very confusing, and I have to admit that I found it confusing even when I was Roman Catholic. At the time, I took it to mean what my grandmother taught me it meant, which is that all the grace that God now gives to mankind on a daily basis comes through the Virgin Mary. It seems to me that it may be even intentionally confusing and intentionally vague so as to create an umbrella for unpopular beliefs, while falling back on valid beliefs as an explanation.

If Pope John Paul II held back on dogmatizing this for the sake of preventing further rifts between East and West, he was wise. To say "God became incarnate through the Virgin Mary" is perfectly Orthodox. To say "Salvation came to mankind by the incarnation of God through the Virgin Mary" is also perfectly Orthodox. To call the Theotokos "Mediatrix of All Graces" however, seems to imply that she is still the primary source through which God gives His grace to mankind, which is might cause most Orthodox to cringe. Even if that's not what is meant by it, it seems like a very bad term because of what it might imply.

We can all agree that she intercedes for us and perhaps even that her prayers are the most important of all the prayers of all the saints since the mother holds great sway with the Son. If the title indicates only her intercessory power, it seems strange, since all the saints do the same that she does through their prayers for us.

Thank you for this post. You cause me to go online to find out what the Eastern Orthodox believe in regards to Mary. Theotokos - I like that and wish I knew how to pronounce it properly. Anywho's thanks and God bless.
 
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I think this is one of those things which can definitely be overthought, and words can get in the way. The Theotokos has a very unique role in redemption history..which we have to remember is both inside and outside of time. As Catholics we believe that these events actually took place in the concreteness of time-they happened in a time and place on the earth. However, we also believe that they are ongoing outside of time. Salvation is ongoing.

Jesus comes through Mary. We can all believe that. Jesus' humanity (which is inseparable from His divinity) is inextricably linked with that of Mary. Hers is a completely unique position.

Mary, simply put, is the conduit or bridge between God being ineffable and God being concrete. And the conduit is perpetually and always open--because salvation is also outside of time. Graces flow from the Spirit world to the concrete world through the conduit God Himself has chosen.

I dunno, I think the teaching is really that simple. And Co-Redemptrix? We are all co-redeemers. That's what Scripture and Tradition teach us.
 
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