Mary, mediator of all graces

[Davidnic]

It is really about the level of participation in Christ's mediation. We all do to a degree by our own free willed response.

Mary's free willed response being very special and her participation greater. Her Fait being the yes that is the key to the door by which the mediator enters..so to speak.

 

[isshinwhat]

I think this is one of those things which can definitely be overthought, and words can get in the way. The Theotokos has a very unique role in redemption history..which we have to remember is both inside and outside of time. As Catholics we believe that these events actually took place in the concreteness of time-they happened in a time and place on the earth. However, we also believe that they are ongoing outside of time. Salvation is ongoing.

Jesus comes through Mary. We can all believe that. Jesus' humanity (which is inseparable from His divinity) is inextricably linked with that of Mary. Hers is a completely unique position.

Mary, simply put, is the conduit or bridge between God being ineffable and God being concrete. And the conduit is perpetually and always open--because salvation is also outside of time. Graces flow from the Spirit world to the concrete world through the conduit God Himself has chosen.

I dunno, I think the teaching is really that simple. And Co-Redemptrix? We are all co-redeemers. That's what Scripture and Tradition teach us.

Excellent post.

 

[isshinwhat]

It is really about the level of participation in Christ's mediation. We all do to a degree by our own free willed response.

Mary's free willed response being very special and her participation greater. Her Fait being the yes that is the key to the door by which the mediator enters..so to speak.

 

[Davidnic]

I have always looked at it as O happy fault that gave us so great a Redeemer and kind Redeemer who shares even the love of His own mother with us as our own. And it is in that example and exercise of her love of God that she finds these titles. They only have meaning as far as they are Christological in scope and focus.

 

[Newbie2]

The Bible clearly teaches that there is one mediator between humans and God and that this is Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

Jesus' divinity did not come from Mary and it is only the divine that can save. Only Jesus can save, not Mary.

Acts 4:12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved

Hebrews 9:15
For this reason Christ is the mediator of the new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance - now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant

Christ has died as a ransom and those who call upon him to save them, recognising that they are helpless sinners and not relying on their good works or on Mary for salvation shall be saved

Hebrews 12:24
to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live

God's word is true and must remain true regardless of what the teaching of men says

ALSO
I agree that Christ's sacrifice was in history. It is now completed.
1 Peter 3:1
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous to bring you to God. He suffered physical death but was raised to life in the Spirit

Romans 10:13
whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved

We need to acccept Christ as our Saviour, the only Saviour

 

[Newbie2]

In reply to Davidnic. Christ is indeed the Redeemer. It's just really important that we bear in mind that Mary was only human.

 

[Wolseley]

The Bible clearly teaches that there is one mediator between humans and God and that this is Jesus Christ.

Very true. But while there is only one mediator, there can be any number of intercessors. And Pope John Paul II clearly taught that Mary's "mediation" comes in the form of intercession:

Thus there is a mediation: Mary places herself between her Son and mankind in the reality of their wants, needs and sufferings. She puts herself "in the middle," that is to say she acts as a mediatrix not as an outsider, but in her position as mother. She knows that as such she can point out to her Son the needs of mankind, and in fact, she "has the right" to do so. Her mediation is thus in the nature of intercession: Mary "intercedes" for mankind.

---encyclical Redemptoris Mater: On the Blessed Virgin Mary in the life of the Pilgrim Church.

Jesus' divinity did not come from Mary

Nobody ever said that it did.

and it is only the divine that can save.

Agreed.

Only Jesus can save, not Mary.

Nobody ever said that she could. The only thing that Mary or saints can do for you is intercede for you, same as any Christian on earth.

Christ has died as a ransom and those who call upon him to save them, recognising that they are helpless sinners and not relying on their good works or on Mary for salvation

Nobody asks Mary to save them. As for works, I direct you to James 2:24.

God's word is true and must remain true regardless of what the teaching of men says

Again agreed---but this means all of God's word, inclding the full 1/2 of it that Protestants reject.

We need to acccept Christ as our Saviour, the only Saviour

Nobody challenges this. Catholics do not see Mary as "another savior".

 

[Newbie2]

It was interesting to find out that no one relies on Mary for salvation.

The Bible does talk about Jesus making intercession for us:

Hebrews 7:25

Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them

Jesus is our High Priest in heaven. He was and is perfect so he can intercede for us. Mary was not perfect so she had to be saved by his blood just like the rest of us. She does not have the position to intercede for us, whereas Jesus is able to 'save completely.'

About the James verse: faith witout works is dead. When a person believes in Jesus they have faith. When that happens the Holy Spirit comes to live in that person. The Holy Spirit produces good fruit in their lives. It will happen. So if a person truly believes good works will follow, but you can't add good works as part of the way of getting saved, all a person has to do is to believe.

 

[Regina Coeli]

Please stop preaching your heretical gospel in the Catholic sub-forums. You can go to General Theology of the Baptist sub-forums till your heart's content.

 

[ivebeenshown]

She does not have the position to intercede for us,

Why not?

1 Timothy 2
1I exhort therefore, that ... intercessions ... be made for all men... 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour...

 

[_Shannon_]

It was interesting to find out that no one relies on Mary for salvation.

The Bible does talk about Jesus making intercession for us:

Hebrews 7:25

Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them

Jesus is our High Priest in heaven. He was and is perfect so he can intercede for us. Mary was not perfect so she had to be saved by his blood just like the rest of us. She does not have the position to intercede for us, whereas Jesus is able to 'save completely.'

About the James verse: faith witout works is dead. When a person believes in Jesus they have faith. When that happens the Holy Spirit comes to live in that person. The Holy Spirit produces good fruit in their lives. It will happen. So if a person truly believes good works will follow, but you can't add good works as part of the way of getting saved, all a person has to do is to believe.

Just pointing out some Scripture you seemed to overlook...and that is the part that says Mary was "full of grace"--that she was in fact perfect humanity, i.e. she was fully united with the Trinity in all things, as we are called to be.

Catholics believe that grace saves...not faith and not works.

There are vast levels of teaching and belief here that I am guessing you haven't encountered, though I might be wrong. Ever heard of the hypostatic union?? It's super important in any discussion about Mary and her singular role in salvation history.

 

[Newbie2]

I looked up the hypostatic union in an online Catholic encylopedia. As I understand it the hypostatic union is teaching that Jesus was human and divine. I would agree that he was both but I wouldn't extend that to Mary. Mary was human but not divine.

About grace, here's an interesting verse:
Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith- and this not from yourselves it is the gift of God - not by works lest any man boast

Romans 3:24
and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus

Finally
Romans 9:16
It does not therefore depend on man's desire or effort but on God's mercy

 

[_Shannon_]

Yup..so it seems we agree. It is not us whose saves, rather grace. We have to participate in our salvation, however.

Mary is absolutely not divine..but her humanity and the humanity of Christ (which can't be separated from His divinity) are inextricably linked, in a very unique and special way.

 

[Foundthelight]

I looked up the hypostatic union in an online Catholic encylopedia. As I understand it the hypostatic union is teaching that Jesus was human and divine. I would agree that he was both but I wouldn't extend that to Mary. Mary was human but not divine.

About grace, here's an interesting verse:
Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith- and this not from yourselves it is the gift of God - not by works lest any man boast

Romans 3:24
and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus

Finally
Romans 9:16
It does not therefore depend on man's desire or effort but on God's mercy

As a non Catholic you are not allowed to debate here.

 

[Newbie2]

Thanks Shannon for your post. It is good that the grace of God is offered freely to all. It is good that it is a gift that we do not have to work for and that our salvation is not dependent on us. It is good that God does not leave the saved in their sin but works to sanctify them (Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it onto completion until the day of Christ Jesus) It has been a good opportunity to think about the nature of Christ again. What a wonderful Saviour!

 

[Tigg]

Newbie, I have enjoyed your posts. You take care and God bless.

 

[Newbie2]

Thanks Tigg

 

[Wolseley]

It was interesting to find out that no one relies on Mary for salvation.

Most Protestants are very confused with regards to what Catholics actually believe about Mary.

Jesus is our High Priest in heaven. He was and is perfect so he can intercede for us. Mary was not perfect so she had to be saved by his blood just like the rest of us. She does not have the position to intercede for us, whereas Jesus is able to 'save completely.'

I am not perfect, but I can intercede for you. If I pray for your well-being and for God to bless you, are you saying that I don't have the position to intercede for you?

Of course I do. And Mary has that same ability too, just like any other Christian does, in heaven or on earth.

As for Mary needing to be saved, you're correct; the only theological difference is that Catholics believe she was relieved of original sin before she was born by a special act of God, whereas the rest of us need to be baptized after we're born to wash away original sin.

The reason for this has less to do with Mary as it does to do with Jesus: Jesus needed to be born absolutely sinless, since sin cannot reside in God's Presence. Jesus was God, and therefore Mary had to be free from sin in order both to bear Jesus in her womb, but also that Jesus would not be polluted with original sin from His mother's (human) side of the family.

About the James verse: faith witout works is dead. When a person believes in Jesus they have faith. When that happens the Holy Spirit comes to live in that person. The Holy Spirit produces good fruit in their lives. It will happen. So if a person truly believes good works will follow, but you can't add good works as part of the way of getting saved, all a person has to do is to believe.

All I'll say on that is that a Christian performing works is like a little girl helping her mom bake a cake.

Does Mom need help from the little girl to make the cake? Is it necessary that the little girl help?

No. Mom can easily bake this cake all on her own.

Does Mom allow the little girl to add her help, however small it may be? Yes.

Why?

Because Mom loves her little girl and wants to spend time with her and to show her how to do things the right way and so forth; so Mom lets the little girl help in her own small way.

In the same fashion, God allows Christians to add their small works to the completed act of salvation. Is it necessary that the Christian add his works to God's completed act of salvation? No. Does God turn down whatever good works the Christian performs for the greater glory of God? Again, no.

I looked up the hypostatic union in an online Catholic encylopedia. As I understand it the hypostatic union is teaching that Jesus was human and divine. I would agree that he was both but I wouldn't extend that to Mary. Mary was human but not divine.

Once again, we agree.

About grace, here's an interesting verse:
Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith- and this not from yourselves it is the gift of God - not by works lest any man boast

Romans 3:24
and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus

Finally
Romans 9:16
It does not therefore depend on man's desire or effort but on God's mercy

But faith without works is dead. Dead faith will not save you. So it's just like James said: you show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

As a non Catholic you are not allowed to debate here.

Let's not be too hard on her---I think she's sincerely trying to understand where we're coming from here, not necessarily trying to convert us.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

In reply to Davidnic. Christ is indeed the Redeemer. It's just really important that we bear in mind that Mary was only human.

Precisely. How do we know how Mary viewed herself? ? We go to the word of God.

And Mary said, "Behold, the bondslave of the Lord; may it be done to me according to your word." And the angel departed from her

Mary viewed herself as every other human, but a bondslave of the Lord. Some interpetations state it as a "Handmaiden" Fully human.

 

[Davidnic]

We also know from Tradition, which is the equal pillar to Scripture. The two do not contradict, they can not.

We had a question once I answered and I think it sums up for me the Catholic view of Mary.


Question:

Ok so two different sections of Scripture:

Luke 11:27-28

As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out. She shouted, "Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you."
He replied, "Instead, blessed are those who hear God's word and obey it."

Luke 7:28

I tell you, among those born of women no one is greater than John, but the least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."
​

My answer:

I think you ask a great question. One we must reflect on to see the proper role of Mary as the Catholic Church teaches it. These verses are vital to understanding that and they reinforce our teaching. They are a caution against excess and an instruction to how and why Mary is important. A real Marian lesson that fits totally in line with Paul VI: Apostolic Exhortation for the Right Ordering and Development of Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary


In this Pope Paul VI said:

When the children of the Church unite their voices with the voice of the unknown woman in the Gospel and glorify the Mother of Jesus by saying to Him: "Blessed is the womb that bore you and the breasts that you sucked" (Lk. 11:27), they will be led to ponder the Divine Master's serious reply: "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!" (Lk. 11:28) While it is true that this reply is in itself lively praise of Mary, as various Fathers of the Church interpreted it and the Second Vatican Council has confirmed, it is also an admonition to us to live our lives in accordance with God's commandments. It is also an echo of other words of the Savior: "Not every one who says to me 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" (Mt. 7:21); and again: "You are my friends if you do what I command you" (Jn. 15:14).​

In both of these Our blessed Lord is saying the same thing. He says, do not think that the claim of closeness to me, the claim of salvation, the claim of greatness is given by anything other than love and obedience to God. By acceptance of the Divine will.

When we see that we also see that Mary exceeds all others. First, is there something special about her as our Lord's mother? Absolutely. Because she accepted the will of God and with it that motherhood. Her motherhood was not accidental. It was not by her motherhood that she followed the will of the Lord...but by her total donation of self to the will of God that she was chosen from all people of all times to be the Mother of our Lord.

So Christ is showing that in the love and obedience to Him and The Father...that is where great gifts are given. And one of the greatest is the gift of motherhood to Mary.

The second verse mirrors the first. If Mary gave her will to God and stayed by Christ to the end and beyond...would not her place in the kingdom be great. The verses give the resounding cry...look not to the things of this world. Look to Me. Look to the Light of the world.

And Mary is an example of how to do this.

The verses can not be taken in the total literal way or else Christ is saying that John is even greater than our Lord...because Christ was born of woman. The Lord is using strong poetic language to get a point across. The meaning of His words are clear. It is not their (Mary and John) relationship to me in the worlds eyes that brings greatness...but their lives...their love of Me. And He calls us to love Him in that same way.

This brings about a necessary mention of Mary's role in Catholic life. It is to bring us closer to Christ.

I have always thought of the Rosary as Mary taking us by the hand and saying: "Come with me, let me show you the life of my Son. See Him and love Him as I do."

When I was young I saw my relationship with Mary in this light. We often see a mother with a baby and we are young. The baby is offered to us to hold, to know....to love. But we are young...like children and afraid. We do not know how to hold the child. The mother often, as Mary does, says: "Here, let me show you how to hold Him."

As I grew up and life gets complex. I have a personal relationship with Christ. And as the world throws us it's curve balls and trials...we falter. Sometimes, even with a wonderful personal relationship with Our blessed Lord...we lose our way. He seems so great and we so small. And in trial and darkness...we need help. He comes to help us...but so does Mary. Because she wants us to love Him so deeply.

When there is trial I think of the young girl of Nazareth. How an angel came and gave her such news. How she gave her total will to the plan of the Lord. And the Joy at the Birth of Christ. The joy of watching Him grow in wisdom as He aged. And then I think of the mother at the foot of the cross. The woman given news by an angel is watching her Son die. If anyone in all of human history could have cursed God and said: "I was lied to...is this Your promise?" It was her at that moment and the moment later when she held Her Son who gave His life for the world. The first to hold Him to her heart in this world and also the last. A mother and child. One saved and the savior. And at that moment she did not abandon Him as her child or her Savior. Can I, in my life...do any less with that example? With that guidance?

How to hold the Lord at Christmas is easy.
The wonderful Child foretold.

How to hold Him at Easter is easy.
Savior and Victor over death.

But to hold Him on Good Friday is hard.
The seemingly dead promise, but in reality the victory of God Himself over Sin and Death. But the eyes to see that in our own daily suffering are dim. Does Easter ever seem as distant as on Good Friday. Surely it is closer in the Joy of Christmas. It would have been so easy for Mary to have left the cross as a broken promise.


But she did not. We know she stayed strong and stayed with the Apostles, just as she stood with Him to the foot of the Cross. From His birth, though His ministry, To the Cross, to Pentecost and beyond. And that is the example we follow...devotion to our Blessed Lord until the end and beyond.

That is how I view the verses as well as how they reinforce the proper Catholic relationship with Mary and why she is so important to us. Yes, we have the Lord. And He helps us know Him better. But we also have Mary and the Saints to show us how to grow and build that relationship with Him. Because our blessed Lord knows...we often need more help than is necessary because we are human and capable of such love...but also such a fall. So He shares with us His own mother and her example. The verses are not a condemnation of her but an exultation of how she lives with Him in her heart. A life that Scripture shows to the foot of the Cross and beyond.


Christ does what she asks because she does not ask Him for things outside of His mercy and love...but what is in perfect accord with it. In that she is the model of all our prayer and relationship with God. It is not that Mary is a shortcut or has Christ do things against His nature...but she helps us model our hearts and actions on hers