Mary - Christian Prototype

[AnticipateHisComing]

Fortunately we have sola scriptura to answer it.

1 Thess 4 - Mary is now in the group that Paul calls 'the dead in Christ'.

The Bible says a lot about just how much the dead know.

If you think so, then tell me what the dead saints know. The only verse of scripture that speaks to what dead saints might know is happening on earth is them being aware of some of their living brothers being martyred.

Revelation 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”

Nothing about saints in heaven being able to simultaneously hear millions of prayers, spoken or silent.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Yes - a clear case of incarnation "Jesus' Birth" vs "procretion" John's birth.

Still we find there - no statement about Mary issuing threats to anyone for not believing doctrine as she believed it - and no reference there about Joseph "stronger than God" etc. Acts 6 - Stephen is "full of grace" and in Luke 1 we are told that this is not a case of "procreation" .

Yeah, and nowhere do you find a statement in the Catholic Church threatening anyone for not believing doctrine as she believed it, and nowhere is there a reference to Mary being stronger than God, etc.

My preference then is not to go beyond what the Bible writers actually say.

And yet, I'd bet you do it every day.

In fact there is one event where someone shouts out to Christ "BLESSED is the woman who nursed you" specifically pointing to her biological role-- and how "instructive" that Jesus' response begins with "ON the CONTRARY.."
Luke 11:27-28

Saying that it says "On the CONTRARY" in red letters is 'beyond what the Bible writers actually say', for instance.

I am wondering how often Orthodox responses to "Blessed is Christ's Mother..." begin with "on the contrary..."

Why would we? God Himself called Mary "Blessed", in fact, "Most Blessed".

More than this - I am wondering if in response the person merely quoted Luke 11:27-28,...in the orthodox church. Would they be immediately condemned??

Why? They understand the Scripture...The beatitude in Lk 11:28 should not be interpreted as a rebuke of the mother of Jesus; rather, it emphasizes that attentiveness to God’s word is more important than biological relationship to Jesus.

 

[Root of Jesse]

How enlightening. I agree it is scripture. Does the quoted scripture answer either of the questions asked in the initial quote of my post? NO.

I could quote the entirety of scripture and not have any support to answer the second quoted question. "Can Mary hear what we say aloud and silently?"

Actually, yes we can...Follow me, here: Is Mary in heaven?

 

[Paul Yohannan]

I think you are mischaracterizing and misrepresenting my remarks. I say that any works that are not done out of a love for God and a love for others are filthy rags. And in wrongly representing what I wrote, you create a Straw Man fallacy.

Several of your remarks have been expeessed using what I read as ambiguous phraseology, which had the effect of presenting in my mind a suboptimal implication, such as in this case.

Its only a strawman if I intentionally misinterpret you, which I can assure you I am not doing (Admiralty Debating Protocol prohibits us from using strawman fallacies in debate, and you can contact the Admiralty Ombudsman, @Truthfrees, if you feel I am using a Strawman argument).

I reccommend you use more exact phrasing and explicitly declare important qualifications like "done out of a love of God." This is a critical qualification, which is as far as I can tell entirely absent from your original statement.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Dead saint is an oxymoron. The Saints are alive in heaven, and we have proof of that in Revelation.

Indeed so. I for one am happy to reply to that question once the midleading adjective "dead" is deleted.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

If you think so, then tell me what the dead saints know. The only verse of scripture that speaks to what dead saints might know is happening on earth is them being aware of some of their living brothers being martyred.

Revelation 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”

Nothing about saints in heaven being able to simultaneously hear millions of prayers, spoken or silent.

Actually there is, although you are looking in the wrong book.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

It is surely profoundly the normality of Mary that is her exceptionality. Her humanity is so profoundly important. And in everything she points to Jesus, she brings Jesus into the World, and she tells us to do whatever Jesus says. And contrary to your suggestion I do not think I have ever suggested that Mary was not profoundly human. That would be theologically contrary to my position in this area.

Again, what is profound is that God came as man, not that it required a special profound woman to enable this. This whole thread glorifies Mary as being not your typical follower of God, but as has been said, the most important woman in the Bible, first among the saints, the prototype for every Christian, she should be revered with shrines with pilgrimage to and even prayed to. You stated in post 275 that Mary is important for our doctrine of atonement and our soteriology. Every Christian recognizes Mary was blessed greatly by God and was a faithful believer in her Son, but you promote an even greater reverence to her, even impacting one's salvation.

I persisted in asking for scripture to support these ideas about Mary. Your response in this chain from post 275 was Hebrews 2:17 and saying that Mary was profoundly human. Understand that this discussion has been about Mary's attitude, persona, divinity/spiritualness and not anything about her humanity/flesh/physique. We are talking about why Mary is special and that is not her "humanity". Don't start a strawman in this thread by discussing the "humanity" of Mary that we have in common with her.

Again what I am looking for is scripture that supports your specific claim that any understanding or reverence of Mary is important for our atonement and salvation. Saying Mary is an exceptional normal human is only a contradiction.

 

[Philip_B]

Again, what is profound is that God came as man, not that it required a special profound woman to enable this. This whole thread glorifies Mary as being not your typical follower of God, but as has been said, the most important woman in the Bible, first among the saints, the prototype for every Christian, she should be revered with shrines with pilgrimage to and even prayed to. You stated in post 275 that Mary is important for our doctrine of atonement and our soteriology. Every Christian recognizes Mary was blessed greatly by God and was a faithful believer in her Son, but you promote an even greater reverence to her, even impacting one's salvation.

I persisted in asking for scripture to support these ideas about Mary. Your response in this chain from post 275 was Hebrews 2:17 and saying that Mary was profoundly human. Understand that this discussion has been about Mary's attitude, persona, divinity/spiritualness and not anything about her humanity/flesh/physique. We are talking about why Mary is special and that is not her "humanity". Don't start a strawman in this thread by discussing the "humanity" of Mary that we have in common with her.

Again what I am looking for is scripture that supports your specific claim that any understanding or reverence of Mary is important for our atonement and salvation. Saying Mary is an exceptional normal human is only a contradiction.

I have no idea what this post is about. It seems to be determined to say that I am wrong. I am not a sola scriptura kind of person, and certainly not a solo scriptura kind of person, however I would see, and do see scripture as the foundation on which we believe.

The mission of God expressed in Jesus is the reconciliation of God and Humanity. By his every incarnation he was the personification of his mission, he in his own body actualised what he set out to achieve. That would not have been possible - given the nature of God - without the assent, co-operation, agreement, participation, however you describe it, of on young woman, and that woman is Mary, Mother of the Lord. The humanity we have in common with Mary, and Jesus is not in my estimation a straw man at all.

 

[BobRyan]

Actually, yes we can...Follow me, here: Is Mary in heaven?

No Bible text claims that

 

[BobRyan]

Yeah, and nowhere do you find a statement in the Catholic Church threatening anyone for not believing doctrine as she believed it,

Well - it is a bit late to claim the inquisition did not happen. Even the current Pope had the honesty to apologies to the Waldensians.

 

[BobRyan]

nowhere is there a reference to Mary being stronger than God,

Indeed ...

No text says she was the "instructor of God, mother of God, wiser than God, protector of God".

I prefer the actual Bible.

Incarnation - not "procreation" -- there is a big --- big --- difference.

etc.And yet, I'd bet you do it every day.Saying that it says "On the CONTRARY" in red letters is 'beyond what the Bible writers actually say',

Luke 11 comes to mind.

In fact there is one event where someone shouts out to Christ "BLESSED is the woman who nursed you" specifically pointing to her biological role-- and how "instructive" that Jesus' response begins with "ON the CONTRARY.."
Luke 11:27-28


I am wondering how often Orthodox responses to "Blessed is Christ's Mother..." begin with "on the contrary..."

More than this - I am wondering if in response the person merely quoted Luke 11:27-28,...in the orthodox church. Would they be immediately condemned??

The beatitude in Lk 11:28 should not be interpreted as a rebuke of the mother of Jesus;

He did not speak that to Mary - he speaks it to an unnamed woman who decides to praise Mary - as blessed for being the person that gave birth to Jesus and nursed him. To THAT - Jesus said "ON THE CONTRARY..."

, it emphasizes that attentiveness to God’s word is more important than biological relationship to Jesus.

And that point - we agree.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

No,

Yes.

If you feel it necessary to help defend another's position, I only wish you would defend yours and respond to my post 352 on why you capitalize mother in Mother of God and post 353 about your claim that Mary is first among the saints and dwells bodily in heaven.

he expressed the belief of all Christians before the 16th century, with the exception of the Antidicomarianites, and the belief of most Christians since the 16th century (including most Protestants).

Sorry, there is no time limit on Sola Scriptura. And, just because the early reformers concentrated on the major contentions with their churches, doesn't mean they cleared up all the dogma that lacks scriptural support. Today, Mariology in the Protestant churches is much diminished, as the OP proves.

Lastly, please take note of how only recently, after the reformation, that the RCC has formalized so much dogma on Mary.

If we believe Jesus is God, we must venerate His mother,

We must, sounds like you make it a command. Show me where in scripture it was so commanded.

and indeed Luke 1, which is the Inspired Written Word (describing the uncreated and incarnate Logos, Jesus Christ), declares that all generations shall call her blessed.

Indeed, the first person in the Bible to venerate her is St. Gabriel the Archangel.

Firstly, Gabriel is an angel, not a person and I am of the opinion that angels serve men. Next, read the part you skipped over in Luke 1 where the same angel said the like about John the Baptist, he being great, Mary being blessed. Great has the implication of his position and accomplishments, blessed has the connotation of a receiver of great things. There is no question that Mary is blessed and should be respected, the other statements you make about her is what I question.

Lastly, since you continue bringing up Luke 1, I shall repeat that Jesus said not to venerate his mother in Luke 11. I think this scripture recorded just for you.

Luke 11:27 As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.”
28 He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”

Do you understand the difference between rather and also? If Jesus only would have said also instead of rather.

So the way to be like Jesus is to be like St. Mary.

No, the way to be like Jesus is to be like Jesus as recorded in the four gospels. How much of those four gospels speak of Mary? As the OP says, little. So you say it better to follow a few verses in scripture that speak of Mary, over the majority of the New Testament that speaks of Jesus and gives explicit directions on how Christians are to live.

 

[Philip_B]

Francis - Laudate Si @238.
The Father is the ultimate source of everything, the loving and self-communicating foundation of all that exists. The Son, his reflection, through whom all things were created, united himself to this earth when he was formed in the womb of Mary. The Spirit, infinite bond of love, is intimately present at the very heart of the universe, inspiring and bringing new pathways. The world was created by the three Persons acting as a single divine principle, but each one of them performed this common work in accordance with his own personal property. Consequently, “when we contemplate with wonder the universe in all its grandeur and beauty, we must praise the whole Trinity”.​

Since @BobRyan raise the current holder of the office, I looked and found this, which speaks to my soul. i hope you find in helpful to.

 

[BobRyan]

How enlightening. I agree it is scripture. Does the quoted scripture answer either of the questions asked in the initial quote of my post? NO.

I could quote the entirety of scripture and not have any support to answer the second quoted question. "Can Mary hear what we say aloud and silently?"

Fortunately we have sola scriptura to answer it.

1 Thess 4 - Mary is now in the group that Paul calls 'the dead in Christ'.

The Bible says a lot about just how much the dead know.

If you think so, then tell me what the dead saints know. The only verse of scripture that speaks to what dead saints might know is happening on earth is them being aware of some of their living brothers being martyred.

Certainly in apocalyptic symbols and types - parables etc we get the blood of Abel crying out from the ground in Genesis 4

"The living know that they will die - but the dead know not anything" Eccl 9:5
For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing,
And they have no more reward,
For the memory of them is forgotten.

Ps 146
3 Do not trust in princes,
In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth;
In that very day his thoughts perish.


"it is not the dead who praise the Lord" Ps 115:17
"The grave cannot praise you" Isaiah 38

Isaiah 38
18 For Sheol cannot thank You,
Death cannot praise You;
Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your truth.
19 The living, the living man, he shall praise You,
As I do this day;
The father shall make known Your truth to the children.


Revelation 6:9 is a great example of apocalyptic symbol where all the dead saints are gathered "under the altar" and crying out for vengeance.

 

[BobRyan]

Since @BobRyan raise the current holder of the office, I looked and found this, .​

Not sure what that is a reference to.​

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Actually, yes we can...Follow me, here: Is Mary in heaven?

I guess you think everyone in heaven have the same abilities as God because they are both in heaven. That is about as much as I can follow you.

As posted in the first argument on this chain, scripture teaches that only God is all knowing, even to our thoughts. God help us if Satan, the angel fallen from heaven can read our thoughts. No scripture says Mary is the greatest in heaven, has a physical body there or can hear millions of simultaneous prayers, aloud or silent.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Indeed so. I for one am happy to reply to that question once the midleading adjective "dead" is deleted.

The message has been communicated. It is understood what I call a dead saint. A legalistic avoids the question for semantics. IDC.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Actually there is, although you are looking in the wrong book.

What an edifying post. You might as well just write, I am right. I try and quote scripture as much as possible, but you avoid it.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

No Bible text claims that

You are correct, but it is assumed by Protestants in other texts that Mary's soul is in the same place that all the saints go to when they die on earth.

But, then Catholics don't believe the souls of all saints go to heaven immediately at death so they have to make Mary out special.

 

[com7fy8]

How is it that this woman who means so much in the outworking of our salvation could be the cause of so much derision and division within the body of Christ - the Church?

Jesus is our Prototype >
"For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified." (in 1 Corinthians 2:2)

"My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you," (Galatians 4:19)

So, God's attention is to forming His own Son in each child of God, as our new inner Person.