Mary and Joseph

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Back to the OP....

He was 80, she was 15 (when Christ was born)

From the same book....

THE RESOLUTION OF MARY’S CASE​

​

At that time, in September, the feast was approaching when many of the principal persons of Jerusalem and the neighboring areas would meet at the temple. The priest resolved to seek their advice how he might best proceed in such a difficult case.

Then, when they met in council, the other priests said, “Behold, Mary is of age; what shall we do with her?; for fear lest the holy place of the Lord our God be defiled.” Then the priests replied unanimously that the Lord’s counsel should be sought concerning the matter, and they said to Zacharias, “Do thou stand before the altar of the Lord and enter into the holy place. Petition the Lord concerning her and whatsoever the Lord shall make manifest to thee, that thou must perform.”

Saint Germanos (c.635-733), Patriarch of Constantinople, confirms this story, writing, that “through the inspiration of God and the will of the priests, lots were cast for her....”

While they were all engaged in prayer, the high priest entered into the holy place. Wearing the breastplate of judgment that was used in determining God’s will [Ex. 28:15- 29], he made prayers concerning Mary. Then, behold, an angel of the Lord stood by Zacharias, and said unto him, “Zacharias, Zacharias, go forth and call together all the widowers among the people and have each man bring his rod. And he by whom the Lord shall show a sign, shall be the husband of Mary. For the matter concerning to whom the Virgin should be given and be betrothed would be resolved in accordance with the prophecy of Isaias, where he says, ‘there shall come forth a rod out of the root of Jesse, and a blossom shall come up from his root’ [Is. 11:1]. The spirit of the God shall rest upon Him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and piety shall fill Him, and the Spirit of the fear of God shall fill Him [Is. 1 1:2]. Therefore, God put it into the mind of Zacharias to betroth the Virgin, that the devil might overlook her as the possible virgin of Isaias’ prophecy.

Then Abiathar, one of the priests, stood up and said, “Hear me, 0 sons of Israel, and receive my words into your ears. Since the time when this temple was built by Solomon, there have been in it virgins, the daughters of kings and the daughters of prophets, and of high priests and priests. They were great and worthy of admiration. But when the maidens came to the proper age they were given in marriage and followed the path that their mothers had before them; and they were pleasing to God. However, Mary has found a new order of life, for she has vowed to remain a virgin to God. Wherefore, it seems to me, that by the answer we received as a result of our inquiry, we should try to ascertain to whom Mary should be entrusted.”

These words found favor with all the synagogue. The lot was then cast by the priests upon the twelve tribes, and the lot fell upon the tribe of Judah. Then the priest announced that all eligible widowers of Judah be summoned, saying: “Let every man who has no wife come and bring his rod in his hand.” Thus the criers went out through all of Israel and when the trumpet of the Lord sounded, all the people ran and met together.

There was at that time, the aged Joseph of Nazareth, then eighty years old, of the tribe of Judah and of the royal house of David. After forty years of marriage, he was a recent widower of about one year. Not wishing to slight the order of the high priest, he put down his axe, for he was a carpenter by profession and lived honorably by the labor of his hands. He came forward bearing his rod in his hand with the other widowers of his tribe.

His first wife, a pious and God- fearing woman, Salome, had borne him seven children: James, Jude, Simon and Joses; and three daughters. The names of the daughters are Salome (she being the future mother of the Apostles James and John the Theologian), Esther, and a third girl whose name has been recorded with several appellations.

Supporting the apocryphal account, as did other Eastern Fathers, St. Epiphanios of Cyprus (c.315-403) gave the opinion that Joseph had been formerly married and had children, both sons and daughters.2° Saint Cyril of Alexandria (+444) considered the “brothers of the Lord” to be children of an earlier marriage of the elder Joseph. In the West, St. Hilary of Poitiers (c.315-367) defended the opinion of Joseph being formerly married.

The rods were then handed over to the high priest who offered a sacrifice to the Lord God, and inquired of the Lord. The angel of the Lord then revealed to the high priest that all the rods were to be placed into the Holy of Holies of God. They were to remain there and, the following day, the men were to return to receive back their rods. The sign that was to be shown was that out of whomever’s rod a flower should bud forth...he was the man to whom the Virgin would be given and betrothed.

This incident of Zacharias praying before the rods is illustrated in a mosaic at the Kariye Djami (Monastery of Chora, in Constantinople).
Mary is standing in prayer behind the altar in the Holy of Holies. Neatly arrayed on the altar before her are the rods. Before the gate, the high priest Zacharias is depicted kneeling as he prays that a sign might be given by the Lord in designation of Mary’s future husband. In the following icon, Joseph’s rod is seen to have sprouted three small leaves from the knob at the upper end of his walking stick.

The analogy of the budding of Aaron’s rod [Num. 17:8] and the blossoming of Joseph’s rod is explicitly brought out in the mosaic at Kariye Djami. In the icon we may see the high priest holding the rod in one hand and firmly placing his other hand upon the head of the Virgin. The “budding rod” is also associated with the prophecy that “...there shall come forth a rod out of the root of Jesse, and a blossom shall come up from his root: and the Spirit of God shall rest upon Him...” [Is. 11:1-2], which has been universally interpreted as a prefiguration of the advent of Christ.

Returning to the apocryphal account, the following day all assembled early. The high priest went into the Holy of Holies and brought forth their rods. However, when the rods had been distributed, no sign had appeared. The priest then put on the twelve bells and the sacerdotal robe. Having entered the Holy of Holies, he made a burnt offering and poured forth prayers. The angel of the Lord then appeared to him, saying, “There is here the shortest rod, of which thou hast made no account. Thou didst bring it in with the rest, but neglected to take it out with the others. When thou hast taken it Out and hast given it to him whose it is, then the sign will appear of which I had spoken to thee.” Indeed, the rod in question was Joseph’s. The elderly widower, acknowledging his great age and feeling that he presented a pitiful appearance, did not volunteer to request his rod back, lest perchance he might be enjoined to receive the young maiden.

When he was standing last of all, the high priest cried out to him with a great voice, “Joseph, come and receive thy rod; for we are waiting for thee.” Trembling, because the high priest had called him with a very loud voice, Joseph came forward. As soon as he laid hold of his rod, straightway, from the top of it there blossomed forth a bud and it flowered.

Saint Romanos speaks of this, chanting, Zacharias submitted to lot the choice of bridegroom for her; and Joseph was betrothed to her from God. For she was given to him when it was revealed in the rod from the Holy Spirit.

Then all the people congratulated the elderly man, remarking, “Thou hast been made blessed in thine old age, 0 father Joseph, seeing that God hath shown thee worthy to receive Mary.” The priests then said, “Take her, because of all the tribe of Judah thou alone hast been chosen by God. Take the Virgin of the Lord and keep her for Him.” But Joseph began bashfully to address them, saying, “I am an old man and have children. Why do ye hand over to me this infant, who is younger than my grandsons? She is quite young, and I fear lest I should appear ridiculous in Israel.”

Then Abiathar said to him, “Remember, Joseph, how Dathan, Abiram and Korah perished when the earth opened and swallowed them up, because they contradicted and despised the will of God [Num. 16:25_33].28 So will it happen to thee and thy family, if thou choose to despise this which is commanded of thee by God.” Joseph, fearing, answered him, “I do not despise the will of God. I shall be her guardian until I can ascertain the will of God as to which of my Sons can have her to wife. Therefore, let some virgins, her companions, with whom she might spend her time, be given as a solace to her.” Abiathar then answered and said, “Five virgins indeed shall be given to her for consolation, until the appointed day shall come when thou may receive her; for to none other may she be married.”


Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

THE VIRGIN IS DELIVERED TO THE ELDER JOSEPH​

​

Saint Evodos (1st c.), a disciple of St. Peter and one of the Apostles of the Seventy, wrote in his work on the Mother of God how the Virgin was taken to the temple at the age of three and remained there for almost eleven years. She was then given into Joseph’s keeping and gave birth to the Lord in her fifteenth year.

Saint Epiphanios merely notes that “the Virgin was delivered to Joseph...and was compelled to do so.” Nicephoros Callistos (+c.1335) writes: “The priests, through divine inspiration, came to understand their duty concerning her and betrothed the child to one from the temple. None was found to be more fitting than Joseph. He was of the same tribe, elderly, and had led an irreproachable, trustworthy and honorable life.” Saint Germanos also adds that “The righteous Joseph drew the lot and by this means did the Virgin leave God’s temple.” Thus, Mary was given to the fatherly care of a proper guardian. Actually, in the case of Mary, as being the sole heiress of her father’s property, regardless of its value, the law insisted that she be betrothed only to a man from her own city and tribe to prevent the transfer of property to another tribe [Num. 27:8], since landed property was carefully guarded. Thus Mary fulfilled this obligation of the law.

Saint John of Damascus (c.676-c.750) comments that “The enemy of our salvation was keeping an eye on virgins, according to the prophecy of Isaias who spoke of a virgin conceiving. Thus the maiden is given in marriage to Joseph by the priests, thereby deceiving the enemy who always glories in his wisdom. Hence the marriage was both a protection and deception to him who was keeping a watchful eye on virgins.”

Accordingly, the usual ceremonies of betrothing being over, Joseph returned to his own city of Bethlehem, to set his house in order and make the needful provisions for the marriage. However, the Virgin, in the company of five other temple virgins, Rebecca, Sepphora, Susanna, Abigail and Jael was to remain in Joseph’s house at Nazareth. These other virgins, about the same age as Mary, had been appointed by the priest to accompany her.


Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

THE BETROTHAL​

​

Few are the depictions in Orthodox iconography of the event of the Virgin’s betrothal to the elderly Joseph. Some examples may be found in the frescoes of the Monastery of Perivleptou of Mystra. Moreover, the event was not elevated to a separate feast on the Orthodox Church calendar. The Church has set aside only the Sunday after the Nativity of Christ as the feast day to commemorate St. Joseph the Betrothed.

According to Hebrew custom, a special formality, that of the betrothal, preceded the actual marriage by a period varying in length, but not exceeding a twelvemonth in the case of a maiden. In the east, courtship with the prospective bride was unknown. At the betrothal, the bridegroom, personally or by deputy, handed to the bride a piece of money or a letter, it being expressly stated in each case that the man thereby espoused the woman. At the time of their betrothal, Joseph and Mary were poor. Accordingly their betrothal must have been the simplest, and the dowry settled as the smallest possible.

In the presence of witnesses, one of two modes of betrothal may have been applied: either by solemn word of mouth, in due prescribed formality, with the added pledge of a piece of money, however small; or else by writing, but there would be no sumptuous feast to follow. The official words pronounced to the maiden were: “By this, thou art set apart for me, according to the laws of Moses and of Israel.” The ceremony would conclude with some benediction over the statutory cup of wine, which was tasted in turn by the betrothed. From that moment, Mary was the betrothed wife of Joseph. Their relationship was sacred. From the moment of betrothal both parties were regarded, and treated in law (as to inheritance, adultery, need of formal divorce), as if they had been actually married, except as regarded their physically consummating the marriage. Any breach of it would be treated as adultery. The band of it could not be dissolved except, as in marriage, by regular divorce. Further, a legal document fixed the dowry which each brought, the mutual obligations, and all other legal points. Generally a festive meal closed the ceremony of the betrothal--but not in this case. Indeed, most from Galilee did not do thus, because habits were more simple and pure. Furthermore, as soon as the dower was paid in full, the bride then belonged solely to the husband.

Of further interest, it should be known that the “bride price” was not always obtained with money. Jacob offered to labor seven years under his prospective father-in-law Laban for his youngest daughter, Rachel [Gen. 29:18]. The dowry could also be in the form of clothing [Judg. 14:8-20] or some other valuable item. The young David was asked to take one hundred foreskins of the Philistines for Michal, Saul’s youngest daughter [1 Sam. 18:25]. This dowry was definitely beyond the ordinary, but Saul had insidious motives. The giving of a bride price did not indicate that the wife had been sold to the husband as though she were his property; it was an acknowledgment and realization of the loss of the economic worth of the daughter to her parents’ house. And as we know, the custom in Israel was that the bride usually went to her husband’s home, and became a part of his family. Thus her father’s house was compensated for the loss. However, a portion was appropriated to ensure the comfort and security of the bride. A part was usually diverted in the event of the husband’s death or an arbitrary divorce.
The iconographic scene of Joseph and one of his sons escorting Mary to his house may be seen in the Kariye Djami. This subject is rarely depicted, but it portrays Joseph striding forward and, curiously, and almost unsatisfactorily, turns around to catch a glimpse of Mary. The rapid pace of their movements is shown by the fluttering drapery around their feet.

One apocryphal source mentions that James, the youngest son of Joseph, was still broken-hearted and sad on account of the loss of his mother, Salome. But when Mary entered Joseph’s home, she brought up James. Henceforward, she was called the “mother of James” [Lk. 24:10]. Another tradition remarks that she became close with Joseph’s daughters, especially Salome the future myrrh-bearer.


Forgive me...

 

[icedtea]

Thank you for those stories! But you need to delay asking forgiveness all the time; you don't post things that need forgiven!

 

[Uphill Battle]

Such a comparison was completely uncalled for in this thread. The OP was simply about the ages of Joseph and Mary, and the other posts were efforts simply to determine their ages. It was offensive and OT to comment that their ages immediately indicates sexual abuse of a child.

If a member choses to use a word like pedophile, he should be prepared to see that usage blasphemous.
Using the ruse of mentioning it as a comparison of time and cultures is disingenuous and insulting to the intellegence, as well as, the sacred religious faith of other Christians members, who have to the right to be represented on CF.

The clear implication is that if Joseph were regarded as a pedophile today, he should be regarded as one then.
Other men who commited child molestations in history are labeled pedophiles, regardless of the time.

BTW, how many Christians today actually have such thoughts about Joseph and Mary when they are celebrating Christmas with Nativity Scenes?

The suggesting of such a thing is, in fact, ugly. And that is simply not called for, even if you wish to not only allow it, but defend it.

I saw no such implication.

Debate, debate, is that your golden rule? Is that your major apologetic rationale for attacking Catholicism, Christianity, and the concept of God?

BTW, in case you didn't notice, your last two sentences look very, very odd next to each other. It reflects a recent staff theme where gentle Christians are distained by sacchrine "Kum bah yah" attitudes, that many young Christians rebuke others for in no uncertain terms.

Yet all members are chastised constantly for not being careful not to offend others by the least breath of ill-chosen words.

If, however, you are officially driving me out of a Christians Only discussion area, I think you should do it for all to see.

It seems the poster above made one wrong statement: that I am entitled to my opinion...

Nobody is trying to drive you anywhere. I question why, if you are offended by all debate, you frequent a debate thread. It makes little sense. If you're offended by movies, would you sit in a theatre?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Thank you for those stories! But you need to delay asking forgiveness all the time; you don't post things that need forgiven!

I'm glad you like them, many people take offense at them.

That is the reason I always ask...

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I would like to publicly apologize for being blunt with HisBelovedMelody.

I was offended, and I over-reacted.

Forgive me...

 

[OldShepherd]

[c]All members please note the title of this thread, "Mary and Joseph," it is not the place to discuss Mohammed or how other members are posting. So please refrain from "I said." "You said."Did not." "Did too." type posts. If you cannot stick to the topic please withdraw from the discussion.

Also please read the forum rules concerning posting quoted material. While this is not in the rules, the bulk of a post should be the member's discussion of points not large blocks of quoted text.[/c]

 

[Uphill Battle]

Back to the OP....

He was 80, she was 15 (when Christ was born)

From the same book....

THE RESOLUTION OF MARY’S CASE
​

At that time, in September, the feast was approaching when many of the principal persons of Jerusalem and the neighboring areas would meet at the temple. The priest resolved to seek their advice how he might best proceed in such a difficult case.

Then, when they met in council, the other priests said, “Behold, Mary is of age; what shall we do with her?; for fear lest the holy place of the Lord our God be defiled.” Then the priests replied unanimously that the Lord’s counsel should be sought concerning the matter, and they said to Zacharias, “Do thou stand before the altar of the Lord and enter into the holy place. Petition the Lord concerning her and whatsoever the Lord shall make manifest to thee, that thou must perform.”

Saint Germanos (c.635-733), Patriarch of Constantinople, confirms this story, writing, that “through the inspiration of God and the will of the priests, lots were cast for her....”

While they were all engaged in prayer, the high priest entered into the holy place. Wearing the breastplate of judgment that was used in determining God’s will [Ex. 28:15- 29], he made prayers concerning Mary. Then, behold, an angel of the Lord stood by Zacharias, and said unto him, “Zacharias, Zacharias, go forth and call together all the widowers among the people and have each man bring his rod. And he by whom the Lord shall show a sign, shall be the husband of Mary. For the matter concerning to whom the Virgin should be given and be betrothed would be resolved in accordance with the prophecy of Isaias, where he says, ‘there shall come forth a rod out of the root of Jesse, and a blossom shall come up from his root’ [Is. 11:1]. The spirit of the God shall rest upon Him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and piety shall fill Him, and the Spirit of the fear of God shall fill Him [Is. 1 1:2]. Therefore, God put it into the mind of Zacharias to betroth the Virgin, that the devil might overlook her as the possible virgin of Isaias’ prophecy.

Then Abiathar, one of the priests, stood up and said, “Hear me, 0 sons of Israel, and receive my words into your ears. Since the time when this temple was built by Solomon, there have been in it virgins, the daughters of kings and the daughters of prophets, and of high priests and priests. They were great and worthy of admiration. But when the maidens came to the proper age they were given in marriage and followed the path that their mothers had before them; and they were pleasing to God. However, Mary has found a new order of life, for she has vowed to remain a virgin to God. Wherefore, it seems to me, that by the answer we received as a result of our inquiry, we should try to ascertain to whom Mary should be entrusted.”

These words found favor with all the synagogue. The lot was then cast by the priests upon the twelve tribes, and the lot fell upon the tribe of Judah. Then the priest announced that all eligible widowers of Judah be summoned, saying: “Let every man who has no wife come and bring his rod in his hand.” Thus the criers went out through all of Israel and when the trumpet of the Lord sounded, all the people ran and met together.

There was at that time, the aged Joseph of Nazareth, then eighty years old, of the tribe of Judah and of the royal house of David. After forty years of marriage, he was a recent widower of about one year. Not wishing to slight the order of the high priest, he put down his axe, for he was a carpenter by profession and lived honorably by the labor of his hands. He came forward bearing his rod in his hand with the other widowers of his tribe.

His first wife, a pious and God- fearing woman, Salome, had borne him seven children: James, Jude, Simon and Joses; and three daughters. The names of the daughters are Salome (she being the future mother of the Apostles James and John the Theologian), Esther, and a third girl whose name has been recorded with several appellations.

Supporting the apocryphal account, as did other Eastern Fathers, St. Epiphanios of Cyprus (c.315-403) gave the opinion that Joseph had been formerly married and had children, both sons and daughters.2° Saint Cyril of Alexandria (+444) considered the “brothers of the Lord” to be children of an earlier marriage of the elder Joseph. In the West, St. Hilary of Poitiers (c.315-367) defended the opinion of Joseph being formerly married.

The rods were then handed over to the high priest who offered a sacrifice to the Lord God, and inquired of the Lord. The angel of the Lord then revealed to the high priest that all the rods were to be placed into the Holy of Holies of God. They were to remain there and, the following day, the men were to return to receive back their rods. The sign that was to be shown was that out of whomever’s rod a flower should bud forth...he was the man to whom the Virgin would be given and betrothed.

This incident of Zacharias praying before the rods is illustrated in a mosaic at the Kariye Djami (Monastery of Chora, in Constantinople).
Mary is standing in prayer behind the altar in the Holy of Holies. Neatly arrayed on the altar before her are the rods. Before the gate, the high priest Zacharias is depicted kneeling as he prays that a sign might be given by the Lord in designation of Mary’s future husband. In the following icon, Joseph’s rod is seen to have sprouted three small leaves from the knob at the upper end of his walking stick.

The analogy of the budding of Aaron’s rod [Num. 17:8] and the blossoming of Joseph’s rod is explicitly brought out in the mosaic at Kariye Djami. In the icon we may see the high priest holding the rod in one hand and firmly placing his other hand upon the head of the Virgin. The “budding rod” is also associated with the prophecy that “...there shall come forth a rod out of the root of Jesse, and a blossom shall come up from his root: and the Spirit of God shall rest upon Him...” [Is. 11:1-2], which has been universally interpreted as a prefiguration of the advent of Christ.

Returning to the apocryphal account, the following day all assembled early. The high priest went into the Holy of Holies and brought forth their rods. However, when the rods had been distributed, no sign had appeared. The priest then put on the twelve bells and the sacerdotal robe. Having entered the Holy of Holies, he made a burnt offering and poured forth prayers. The angel of the Lord then appeared to him, saying, “There is here the shortest rod, of which thou hast made no account. Thou didst bring it in with the rest, but neglected to take it out with the others. When thou hast taken it Out and hast given it to him whose it is, then the sign will appear of which I had spoken to thee.” Indeed, the rod in question was Joseph’s. The elderly widower, acknowledging his great age and feeling that he presented a pitiful appearance, did not volunteer to request his rod back, lest perchance he might be enjoined to receive the young maiden.

When he was standing last of all, the high priest cried out to him with a great voice, “Joseph, come and receive thy rod; for we are waiting for thee.” Trembling, because the high priest had called him with a very loud voice, Joseph came forward. As soon as he laid hold of his rod, straightway, from the top of it there blossomed forth a bud and it flowered.

Saint Romanos speaks of this, chanting, Zacharias submitted to lot the choice of bridegroom for her; and Joseph was betrothed to her from God. For she was given to him when it was revealed in the rod from the Holy Spirit.

Then all the people congratulated the elderly man, remarking, “Thou hast been made blessed in thine old age, 0 father Joseph, seeing that God hath shown thee worthy to receive Mary.” The priests then said, “Take her, because of all the tribe of Judah thou alone hast been chosen by God. Take the Virgin of the Lord and keep her for Him.” But Joseph began bashfully to address them, saying, “I am an old man and have children. Why do ye hand over to me this infant, who is younger than my grandsons? She is quite young, and I fear lest I should appear ridiculous in Israel.”

Then Abiathar said to him, “Remember, Joseph, how Dathan, Abiram and Korah perished when the earth opened and swallowed them up, because they contradicted and despised the will of God [Num. 16:25_33].28 So will it happen to thee and thy family, if thou choose to despise this which is commanded of thee by God.” Joseph, fearing, answered him, “I do not despise the will of God. I shall be her guardian until I can ascertain the will of God as to which of my Sons can have her to wife. Therefore, let some virgins, her companions, with whom she might spend her time, be given as a solace to her.” Abiathar then answered and said, “Five virgins indeed shall be given to her for consolation, until the appointed day shall come when thou may receive her; for to none other may she be married.”


Forgive me...

with respect, is there any accounting of an ECF writting about Joseph as previously married that didn't come AFTER 300 AD?

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

What was the age difference between Mary and Joseph when they were betrothed?

Since it's entirely moot and since God, in His infinite wisdom, chose not to tell us, I think it's probably best to leave this question unanswered.


There's some ancient tradition that says Mary was 16 (that's has SOME credibility since girls typically were officially engaged but not yet living together at that age) and Joseph older - maybe even a generation older (I know!). But there's NOTHING in God's holy inerrant written Word that remotely supports that.


Thank you for your question and for reading my $0.01


Pax!


- Josiah

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

with respect, is there any accounting of an ECF writting about Joseph as previously married that didn't come AFTER 300 AD?

No, we don't have much left from before the year A.D. 313 (Edict of Milan).

Most of the documents that were apprehended by the Pagan Roman empire before then were destoryed because they were trying to stop Christianity from spreading.

We have much more documentation after Christianity became legal for that reason.

Most things were hidden and even services were held in private.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Since it's entirely moot and since God, in His infinite wisdom, chose not to tell us, I think it's probably best to leave this question unanswered.


There's some ancient tradition that says Mary was 16 (that's has SOME credibility since girls typically were officially engaged but not yet living together at that age) and Joseph older - maybe even a generation older (I know!). But there's NOTHING in God's holy inerrant written Word that remotely supports that.


Thank you for your question and for reading my $0.01


Pax!


- Josiah

If Christ God had intended to impart infinate wisdom to you in written format, Christ Jesus would have written a book himself.

As it is, these books are written testaments of the oral Holy Traditions passed down to us. At the time of the Apostles a mans word was worth more than paper.

2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Are we to willingly discard the traditions taught by word?


Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

If I make the mistake of honoring Christ's mother too much, do you think Christ will hold it against me?

If I make the mistake of NOT honoring her at all, will he hold it against me?

For those who do not think Christ honored his mother....

Exd 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

IMHO ~ It would be better for me to err on the side of honoring her too much.

Forgive me...

 

[Uphill Battle]

No, we don't have much left from before the year A.D. 313 (Edict of Milan).

Most of the documents that were apprehended by the Pagan Roman empire before then were destoryed because they were trying to stop Christianity from spreading.

We have much more documentation after Christianity became legal for that reason.

Most things were hidden and even services were held in private.

Forgive me...

funny how every single canonical writing survived, however.

 

[Uphill Battle]

If I make the mistake of honoring Christ's mother too much, do you think Christ will hold it against me?

If I make the mistake of NOT honoring her at all, will he hold it against me?

For those who do not think Christ honored his mother....

Exd 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

IMHO ~ It would be better for me to err on the side of honoring her too much.

Forgive me...

perhaps you are right.

however, attributing sinlessness to her in error would not be honouring her.

denying any other children she had, if she did, would not be honouring her.

and in the case of RCC (as I am aware orthodox do not believe this) beliving that she was immaculatly concieved, would not be honouring her.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

funny how every single canonical writing survived, however.

Every single one that was pronounced canonical in A.D. 325.

Forgive me...

 

[Uphill Battle]

Every single one that was pronounced canonical in A.D. 325.

Forgive me...

when it was pronounced is not the issue.

you claim that most was destroyed before 313, yet the scriptures survived, and were canonized. How is it that they managed to survive the mass destruction, yet all the "supporting documentation" of Marian doctrine, Joseph as previously married, etc... where destroyed?

dubious.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

when it was pronounced is not the issue.

you claim that most was destroyed before 313, yet the scriptures survived, and were canonized. How is it that they managed to survive the mass destruction, yet all the "supporting documentation" of Marian doctrine, Joseph as previously married, etc... where destroyed?

dubious.

I am simply saying that more may have been canonized if they had survived until that time. The fact that they no longer existed precludes that being possible. So yes, when they were canonized has much to do with it.

Forgive me...

 

[Uphill Battle]

I am simply saying that more may have been canonized if they had survived until that time. The fact that they no longer existed precludes that being possible. So yes, when they were canonized has much to do with it.

Forgive me...

If they were trying to destroy Christianity, it would make far more sense that they would be destroying the Gospels and the Epistles, and writing about whether or not Joseph were an old man would likely be overlooked.

on top of that, God won't let his message be destroyed, will he? if not, then it would seem that records of supposed documents of Marian Dogmas and Josephs age, etc... are irrellevant. That is if you believe they existed, and were destroyed.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

If they were trying to destroy Christianity, it would make far more sense that they would be destroying the Gospels and the Epistles, and writing about whether or not Joseph were an old man would likely be overlooked.

on top of that, God won't let his message be destroyed, will he? if not, then it would seem that records of supposed documents of Marian Dogmas and Josephs age, etc... are irrellevant. That is if you believe they existed, and were destroyed.

God's message has not been destroyed, with the exception of the 10 commandments it has been completely verbal, and passed from one believer to the next down through time.

If Christ God had wanted you to have a text to go by, he would have written it himself, and no man would have been able to destroy it. Instead, he put his faith in mankind to keep his word, to baptise all the world and to teach them all that he had taught them.

Are we to suppose that all that he taught them is contained in The Bible? Who's Bible, which version? Where is the inspired table of content? Why does one contain more than another?

Is it not because men change these things over time? Who is the author of confusion? How is it that we beleive that The Holy Spirit is leading us in different directions?

There is more to Christianity than what is in The Bible. There is more knowledge to be had.

Forgive me...