Mary and Joseph

[OrthodoxyUSA]

From the same book... in another chapter...

THE VIRGIN IS DELIVERED TO THE ELDER JOSEPH
Saint Evodos (1st c.), a disciple of St. Peter and one of the Apostles of the Seventy, wrote in his work on the Mother of God how the Virgin was taken to the temple at the age of three and remained there for almost eleven years. She was then given into Joseph’s keeping and gave birth to the Lord in her fifteenth year.

Saint Epiphanios merely notes that “the Virgin was delivered to Joseph...and was compelled to do so.” Nicephoros Callistos (-i-c.1335) writes: “The priests, through divine inspiration, came to understand their duty concerning her and betrothed the child to one from the temple. None was found to be more fitting than Joseph. He was of the same tribe, elderly, and had led an irreproachable, trustworthy and honorable life.” Saint Germanos also adds that “The righteous Joseph drew the lot and by this means did the Virgin leave God’s temple.” Thus, Mary was given to the fatherly care of a proper guardian. Actually, in the case of Mary, as being the sole heiress of her father’s property, regardless of its value, the law insisted that she be betrothed only to a man from her own city and tribe to prevent the transfer of property to another tribe [Num. 27:8], since landed property was carefully guarded. Thus Mary fulfilled this obligation of the law.

Saint John of Damascus (c.676-c.750) comments that “The enemy of our salvation was keeping an eye on virgins, according to the prophecy of Isaias who spoke of a virgin conceiving. Thus the maiden is given in marriage to Joseph by the priests, thereby deceiving the enemy who always glories in his wisdom. Hence the marriage was both a protection and deception to him who was keeping a watchful eye on virgins.”

Accordingly, the usual ceremonies of betrothing being over, Joseph returned to his own city of Bethlehem, to set his house in order and make the needful provisions for the marriage. However, the Virgin, in the company of five other temple virgins, Rebecca, Sepphora, Susanna, Abigail and Jael was to remain in Joseph’s house at Nazareth. These other virgins, about the same age as Mary, had been appointed by the priest to accompany her.


Forgive me....

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Chapter XIV
The Flight Into Egypt
+++
AN ANGEL APPEARS TO JOSEPH​

Before Herod gave the command to slay the children from two years old and under that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof [Mt. 2:16], the goodly and just elder Joseph was then warned by God in a dream. “The angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, ‘Arise, and take the young child and His Mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy Him”

Thus gentle and mild-mannered Joseph, when he arose, began to set his household affairs in Nazareth in order. Then, full of faith, Joseph took his son James1 and, complying with the bidding of the angel, “he took the young child and His mother, by night, and departed into Egypt”. The Virgin rode a donkey, carrying the young child in her arms. Joseph or James strode in front, taking turns in leading the beast.

According to St. Cyril of Alexandria (+444), Joseph fled into Egypt by the command of an angel in the month of March, in order that “the lamb be not killed in the milk of his mother...”

Tradition places the entry of the Lord into Egypt as the 1st of June. — Saint Ephraim the Syrian (c.306-383) chants, As a young dove [Cant. 6:8], she carried the Eagle, the Ancient of Days [Dan. 7:9], singing lovely praises as she carried Him: “0 my Son most rich, in a tiny nest Thou hast chosen to grow. O melodious harp, Thou art silent like a child, please let me sing to Thee with the lyre whose cords stir the cherubim; pray let me speak to Thee.”

Saint John Chrysostom (354-407) comments that “as soon as He was born the tyrant rages; then comes flight, and a journey into exile; and without cause His Mother is forced to fly into a land of strangers. Indeed, she, who scarcely ever went outside her home, is bidden to set out on a long and wearisome journey, because of this wondrous newborn child and His miraculous birth.”5

IN PRAISE OF JOSEPH

At the venerable age of eighty, when most men have entered that stage of life of retirement and reflection, Joseph is called to active service. Saint John Chrysostom comments that “The elderly Joseph is not offended at hearing that he must flee home, family and occupation and fly, secretly, as a fugitive. He was a man of faith. Note that he does not make inquiry when he might return from dwelling in a strange land, although the angel had spoken in an indefinite manner. Neither was he regretful at the command, but submissive and obedient, bearing these trials with cheerfulness.”




Forgive me...

 

[Abiel]

In historical studies there are two kinds of source. Primary and Secondary. Secondary sources are notorious for varing levels of accuracy and spin. Primary sources are somewhat more reliable. Our gospels are as close as we can get to a primary source for these matters. We have no reliable evidence of the ages of the protagonists in these stories, for they are not given. It is reasonable to assume that Mary was young. It is equally reasonable to assume that Joseph was a young man. Given that they were betrothed prior to the conception of Jesus, it is reasonable to assume that the betrothal normal in terms of age of the participants, and all other cultural norms of the day. Joseph is not portrayed as a man who takes up with Mary out of pity or duty, but ultimately out of love and the reassurance of God that all will be well. Joseph's story is one of great love- for his God, for his wife, and for a child.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

In historical studies there are two kinds of source. Primary and Secondary. Secondary sources are notorious for varing levels of accuracy and spin. Primary sources are somewhat more reliable. Our gospels are as close as we can get to a primary source for these matters. We have no reliable evidence of the ages of the protagonists in these stories, for they are not given. It is reasonable to assume that Mary was young. It is equally reasonable to assume that Joseph was a young man. Given that they were betrothed prior to the conception of Jesus, it is reasonable to assume that the betrothal normal in terms of age of the participants, and all other cultural norms of the day. Joseph is not portrayed as a man who takes up with Mary out of pity or duty, but ultimately out of love and the reassurance of God that all will be well. Joseph's story is one of great love- for his God, for his wife, and for a child.

It's only reasonable to assume Joseph was a young man if you have been taught nothing of him by the Church.

Forgive me...

 

[Abiel]

You are forgiven- though you need to know that sounded a tad patronising...

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

It was patronizing..cause once again church tradition trumps the Word of God. i am sorry, but, I don't believe you NOR the book you quoted in the matter of Joseph. IF he had other kids...they would of been with him on his trek to the census....ALL of them had to go and register. As was stated, that trek would of killed an elderly man. SO, you are forgiven, but not believed.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I am sorry that you find it condecending. It was not meant as such.

The "Word" (Logos) of God is Christ. I am certain that you meant the "word", which is The Holy Bible.

Holy Traditions do not trump The Holy Bible, they are where the Holy Bible comes from. They are equal.

With the exception of Jude and St. James, all of Joseph's children were grown and had their own families.

St. James accompanied St. Joseph and Mary to Egypt, and retuned with them.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Please find me a reference from the first 1000 years of The Church that teaches that St. Joseph was a young man.

You wont find it, it's not there.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

These are the things that are taught by...

The Church of Jerusalem AD33 (Christ himself)
The Church of Antioch AD34 (St. Peter)
The Church of Constantinople AD38 (St. Andrew)
The Church of Alexandria AD43 (St. Mark)

They were believed by all Christians everywhere from the beginning for the first 1000 years of The Church.

There are no gaps in history for those Churches who have been here from the beginning.

Modern western Churches are left to attempt to fill in the gaps as best they can. Unfortunatly much is lost this way.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

You are forgiven- though you need to know that sounded a tad patronising...

My apologies.

Forgive me...

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

IF you want to believe church ( I mean the denomination) teaching...that is fine. I don't. I believe the WORD of God that says different than you. There is NO age specified for Joseph, NOR a previous marriage or any of the stuff you believe. Sorry, i won't believe it. you say to us about what we have been 'taught'...and expect us to change our mind...how bout you give up what YOU were taught and change? I mean, come on. You aren't convincing me your thoughts on their age. You quote tradition like it IS the Word of God. You even stated it is equal...I DO NOT think so. That is just not right at all. NOTHING is equal to God and His word. And certainly not man made TRADITION.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

IF you want to believe church ( I mean the denomination) teaching...that is fine. I don't. I believe the WORD of God that says different than you. There is NO age specified for Joseph, NOR a previous marriage or any of the stuff you believe. Sorry, i won't believe it. you say to us about what we have been 'taught'...and expect us to change our mind...how bout you give up what YOU were taught and change? I mean, come on. You aren't convincing me your thoughts on their age. You quote tradition like it IS the Word of God. You even stated it is equal...I DO NOT think so. That is just not right at all. NOTHING is equal to God and His word. And certainly not man made TRADITION.

Dear Beloved,

I will not argue with you. It's not what you have been taught, it's what you haven't been taught nor exposed to. I can not and will not hold you liable for something that you have no basis for understanding.

You and I are at different places on the same road. I was raised a Southern Baptist and later in life found out that The Church of Antioch still exists, even the headquarters is in the same place it has been from AD34, on a Street called Straight in Damascus (see ACTS 9). So I began to educate myself about this Church and found it rich with history and no gaps in its timeline.

The bottom line is 4 of 5 of the ancient Churchs from the first 1000 years of "The Church" are still together preaching and teaching the same exact things that they have been teaching for 2000 years.

They do not follow Rome or The Pope, their history is quite different from that of Rome. These are the Greek and Aramic speaking Churches.

I have no reason to believe that they would lie about their history nor make things up. They ask nothing from me, but instead welcome me in.

My advice to all is to learn the history of the ancient Churches from the ancient Churches that still exist. Exclude Rome if you wish, there is pleanty to be found in the others.

To refute these teaching is to say that these Churches are lying or are at the very least unaware of their own history.

Could someone outside your family tell you your family history better than your grandparents and great-grandparents?

Forgive me...

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

Dear Beloved,

I will not argue with you. It's not what you have been taught, it's what you haven't been taught nor exposed to. I can not and will not hold you liable for something that you have no basis for understanding.

You and I are at different places on the same road. I was raised a Southern Baptist and later in life found out that The Church of Antioch still exists, even the headquarters is in the same place it has been from AD34, on a Street called Straight in Damascus (see ACTS 9). So I began to educate myself about this Church and found it rich with history and no gaps in its timeline.

The bottom line is 4 of 5 of the ancient Churchs from the first 1000 years of "The Church" are still together preaching and teaching the same exact things that they have been teaching for 2000 years.

They do not follow Rome or The Pope, their history is quite different from that of Rome. These are the Greek and Aramic speaking Churches.

I have no reason to believe that they would lie about their history nor make things up. They ask nothing from me, but instead welcome me in.

My advice to all is to learn the history of the ancient Churches from the ancient Churches that still exist. Exclude Rome if you wish, there is pleanty to be found in the others.

To refute these teaching is to say that these Churches are lying or are at the very least unaware of their own history.

Could someone outside your family tell you your family history better than your grandparents and great-grandparents?

Forgive me...

I won't argue either. Are you saying you are at a higher place/better place spiritually? I don't think so. The ground at the cross is even. No one is better than anyone else. Bottom line..if you have Jesus in your heart and you love and serve Him, so do I. That makes us bro/sis.

I have been exposed to your denominations teachings. Sorry, doesn't make me uneducated, or less of a person. I jsut don't believe tradition and doctrine are equal to the Word of God. That is just plain wrong. If that is what you believe...have at it. That is fine. But don't put me down cause I don't adhere to it.

 

[IamAdopted]

well the bible does not give any inclination as to the age of Joseph. But I don't see him as elderly. I don't see children to him before Jesus was conceived or even after the birth of Christ when they went to the temple for the ceremony.. Tradtions have been proven wrong before..As they will be again..

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

well the bible does not give any inclination as to the age of Joseph. But I don't see him as elderly. I don't see children to him before Jesus was conceived or even after the birth of Christ when they went to the temple for the ceremony.. Tradtions have been proven wrong before..As they will be again..

really? but won't that crumble the house of cards? I mean, traditons are MAN made. I will still stick with the word of God. God is awesome. I was just thinking. He isn't stagnant. He is always moving and always revealing new things (in the confines of the Word...not whacky out there things) and always moving! Why would I want to hold Him to tradition for the sake of making a denomination happy?

 

[IamAdopted]

really? but won't that crumble the house of cards? I mean, traditons are MAN made. I will still stick with the word of God. God is awesome. I was just thinking. He isn't stagnant. He is always moving and always revealing new things (in the confines of the Word...not whacky out there things) and always moving! Why would I want to hold Him to tradition for the sake of making a denomination happy?

Huh?? am I missing something here?

 

[IamAdopted]

really? but won't that crumble the house of cards? I mean, traditons are MAN made. I will still stick with the word of God. God is awesome. I was just thinking. He isn't stagnant. He is always moving and always revealing new things (in the confines of the Word...not whacky out there things) and always moving! Why would I want to hold Him to tradition for the sake of making a denomination happy?

Dear sister in the Lord. I think you misread my post.. Tee hee.. I said that tradtions have been proven wrong before as they will be proven wrong again... LOL...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I won't argue either. Are you saying you are at a higher place/better place spiritually? I don't think so. The ground at the cross is even. No one is better than anyone else. Bottom line..if you have Jesus in your heart and you love and serve Him, so do I. That makes us bro/sis.

I have been exposed to your denominations teachings. Sorry, doesn't make me uneducated, or less of a person. I jsut don't believe tradition and doctrine are equal to the Word of God. That is just plain wrong. If that is what you believe...have at it. That is fine. But don't put me down cause I don't adhere to it.

Neither higher nor better... just different.

None of these things that we have discussed here will influence your salvation.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

You have the freedom to reject these teachings. The free will that was given by God.

It is up to each of us individually to come to grips with our history.

Forgive me...

 

[vrunca]

I mean, traditons are MAN made.

This is not always true. God Himself was the one to say that the Jews are to put the blood on the door posts every Passover...which is tradition. God was the one to say what was to be eaten...which is tradition now. God was also the one to say that we should do this in memory of Him, when He broke the bread at the First Eucharistic celebration....this is tradition brought about today, at the Holy Mass every day.