Mary a virgin?

[Natsumi Lam]

Hi Family,

What is the biblical basis for Mary being considered as a virgin?

What about the fact that she had kids or a kid after Jesus which requires sex?

~Natsumi Lam~

 

[Greg J.]

Some of the reasons:

“BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL,” which translated means, “GOD WITH US.” (Matthew 1:23, 1995 NASB)

Which is based on the OT verse:
“Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel. (Isaiah 7:14, 1995 NASB)

Also:
In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. (Luke 1:26-27, 1995 NIV)

“And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus.
...
Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I am a virgin?” (Luke 1:31, 34, 1995 NASB)

This last passage indicates that Mary did not understand how it was possible for her to have a child (which the angel explained after her question). In general, however, since in Jewish culture referring to a virgin was the same as referring to a young women, there is no real reason to question the definition of virgin. (i.e., premarital sex was very bad as we can see in various narratives.)

 

[Tomm]

What about the fact that she had kids or a kid after Jesus which requires sex?

Who told you she had other kids, Ms Lin??
That's not true.

 

[Greg J.]

Scripture is clear that Mary had additional children, both males and females, but when she had Jesus (her firstborn) she had not yet had sex.

When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus. (Matthew 1:24-25, 1984 NIV)

 

[Ken Rank]

Hi Family,

What is the biblical basis for Mary being considered as a virgin?

What about the fact that she had kids or a kid after Jesus which requires sex?

~Natsumi Lam~

Isaiah 7:14 has Isaiah addressing king Ahaz of Judah but also, most believe, speaking prophetically of the one who would come. In it, most translations use the word virgin which is ‛almâh in Hebrew. That word means first a young unmarried woman and so there is some controversy over this verse. However, I tend to believe the controversy is caused by anti-missionaries and atheists.

An ‛almâh in a Torah observant society (a society that follows God's laws) is by definition a virgin. Thus even if the first definition of ‛almâh isn't virgin, the fact that she is unmarried means she is. However, when Hebrew translators took the Hebrew into Greek in 300BC for their Hellenistic brethren (what is called the Septuagint or LXX) they used the word parthenos which means virgin. There is no question that their understanding of ‛almâh was that it meant virgin by choosing parthenos.

As for other children... there is no proof in Scripture that Mary remained a virgin. She was chosen to bear the Son of God because of her obedience and because of her virginity. But her calling for that mission ended when Messiah was born. To say she never confirmed the marriage covenant with Joseph after that is actually very much against her Hebraic nature.

 

[Natsumi Lam]

Isaiah 7:14 has Isaiah addressing king Ahaz of Judah but also, most believe, speaking prophetically of the one who would come. In it, most translations use the word virgin which is ‛almâh in Hebrew. That word means first a young unmarried woman and so there is some controversy over this verse. However, I tend to believe the controversy is caused by anti-missionaries and atheists.

An ‛almâh in a Torah observant society (a society that follows God's laws) is by definition a virgin. Thus even if the first definition of ‛almâh isn't virgin, the fact that she is unmarried means she is. However, when Hebrew translators took the Hebrew into Greek in 300BC for their Hellenistic brethren (what is called the Septuagint or LXX) they used the word parthenos which means virgin. There is no question that their understanding of ‛almâh was that it meant virgin by choosing parthenos.

As for other children... there is no proof in Scripture that Mary remained a virgin. She was chosen to bear the Son of God because of her obedience and because of her virginity. But her calling for that mission ended when Messiah was born. To say she never confirmed the marriage covenant with Joseph after that is actually very much against her Hebraic nature.

Jw How is she unmarried? She was married to Joseph and had another kids?

Does that make peter or some of the disciples virgins even though they were married like Mary?

Is she never married, did she have kids out of wedlock?

 

[Eloy Craft]

Scripture is clear that Mary had additional children, both males and females, but when she had Jesus (her firstborn) she had not yet had sex.

When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus. (Matthew 1:24-25, 1984 NIV)

So who committed adultery? God or Joseph?

Joseph knew that Jesus wasn't His son. The reason Joseph couldn't marry Mary was because He would have been mixing his bloodline with other seed. So, Joseph was willing to do that anyway?

Joseph and Mary were given new purpose. Their purpose was fulfilled in their roles in the Incarnation. Earthly purposes get in the way of heavenly purposes and Jesus insisted they be given up to follow Him.

 

[Natsumi Lam]

Some of the reasons:

“BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL,” which translated means, “GOD WITH US.” (Matthew 1:23, 1995 NASB)

Which is based on the OT verse:
“Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel. (Isaiah 7:14, 1995 NASB)

Also:
In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. (Luke 1:26-27, 1995 NIV)

“And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus.
...
Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I am a virgin?” (Luke 1:31, 34, 1995 NASB)

This last passage indicates that Mary did not understand how it was possible for her to have a child (which the angel explained after her question). In general, however, since in Jewish culture referring to a virgin was the same as referring to a young women, there is no real reason to question the definition of virgin. (i.e., premarital sex was very bad as we can see in various narratives.)

Those verses support that she was a virgin before and during Jesus.

She lost her virginity when she had more kids.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I’ve been through this discussion with Catholics and Orthodox and it seems that most of the information comes from the protoevagelium of James. Personally I have doubts about the book because it is said to be written around 120-140AD which would’ve put James at over 120 years old if the book is written by James because it says that Joseph was a widower and had children from a previous marriage. So that would put James being older than Jesus. According to Genesis 6:3 God declared no man will live over 120 years.

“Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not put up with humans for such a long time, for they are only mortal flesh. In the future, their normal lifespan will be no more than 120 years.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:3‬

The protoevangelium of James also specifically states that it is written by James Himself but the church doubted that James was the actual author which is why it was never canonized into the Bible as an inspired writing. There were many apocryphal writings at that time that were forgeries claimed to be written by the apostles. Like for example the protoevangelium of Thomas in which talks in detail about Jesus’ childhood and states that Jesus actually killed several people using His Godly powers out of spite and anger which would contradict the Bible saying that Jesus never sinned. The church obviously rejects the proto of Thomas because of this. One scripture I’ve found that they use to claim that Mary remained a virgin is Ezekiel 44:1-2.

“Then he brought me back by the way of the outer gate of the sanctuary, which looketh toward the east; and it was shut. And Jehovah said unto me, This gate shall be shut; it shall not be opened, neither shall any man enter in by it; for Jehovah, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it; therefore it shall be shut.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭44:1-2

They claim that since Jesus entered the world thru Mary’s womb that no man can enter or come thru her womb. While I do have a great respect for the Orthodox Church I do find it hard to believe this is referring to Mary’s womb so personally I prefer not to reject or endorse this idea but instead remain neutral on the subject considering it to be a possiblity. I’ve pretty much concluded that there is sufficient evidence to support both sides of this argument and for the sake of not misleading anyone and because this is not something that is necessary to understand for salvation I feel it’s just best not to worry about it. I think in matters like this sometimes it’s best to just say I don’t know rather than jump to conclusions.

 

[Greg J.]

The Book of James was written A.D. 44-49.

Those verses support that she was a virgin before and during Jesus.

She lost her virginity when she had more kids.

Correct. I didn't say otherwise. Traditionally (first few centuries) Mary lost her virginity after giving birth to Jesus, and there is no Scriptural reason to think otherwise.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I’ve been through this discussion with Catholics and Orthodox and it seems that most of the information comes from the protoevagelium of James. Personally I have doubts about the book because it is said to be written around 120-140AD which would’ve put James at over 120 years old if the book is written by James because it says that Joseph was a widower and had children from a previous marriage. So that would put James being older than Jesus. According to Genesis 6:3 God declared no man will live over 120 years.

“Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not put up with humans for such a long time, for they are only mortal flesh. In the future, their normal lifespan will be no more than 120 years.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:3‬

It is more likely that this verse refers to the coming of the flood.

https://www.neverthirsty.org/bible-...-what-does-the-120-years-in-genesis-63-refer/

 

[blackribbon]

Matthew 13:55-56
55 “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56 Aren’t all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?”

 

[~Anastasia~]

Folks, this is Traditional Theology, not General Theology. We welcome everyone who posts here, but please read the Statement of Purpose regarding what this forum is set up for.

Traditionally, the Church DID teach that Mary remained a virgin, as there were some doubts that arose among some within the first few centuries. There are a number of reasons this was held as belief, not only the Protoevangelium of James. Even those who put little stock in the PoJ recognize Mary as a perpetual virgin.

There are answers to each of the particular quotes from Scripture that modern denominations assume mean otherwise and we can talk about each of them. (No time at the moment - I think most everyone who posts here is in Church and I need to be soon.)

Mary was regarded as a lifelong virgin by essentially all Christians until just a few centuries ago when it was assumed against Catholicism and Marian devotion - which Orthodox would agree was excessive at times in their case, yet we don't change what was always believed to counter it.

But if you are not a Traditional Christian (see the SOP for a definition), please don't post debate and your own opinion, because those are against the rules for TT (see the SOP) and I don't want to see folks get in trouble.

I'm sure we can answer more in depth later today.

God be with us all.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Personally I have doubts about the book

There is even less evidence for the protestant version of the story of Mary and Joseph. Esp when you consider that Joseph does not seem to be around at the time of Jesus ministry which would support the idea that he was very advanced in years when Jesus was born.

The Genealogies start off with a marriage between Adam and Eve. then you have all the generations in between and all the marriages. WE end up with the marriage between Mary and Joseph. But none of these marriages are really held up as an example for us to follow. Instead we are to look at the relationship between Jesus and His Church or His Bride.

I would like to think that both Mary and Joseph were very loving people. Perhaps they took very good care of each other and had a good marriage. Even if it was a sexless marriage. Because she took a vow before God and he was just getting to be to old. As people grow older together it is not unheard of for their love and devotion for each other to grow. Marriage tends to go through stages just as we go though stages in life.

1Kings1 talks about a similar situation with David when he was old:

1 When King David was very old, he could not keep warm even when they put covers over him. 2 So his attendants said to him, “Let us look for a young virgin to serve the king and take care of him. She can lie beside him so that our lord the king may keep warm.”

3 Then they searched throughout Israel for a beautiful young woman and found Abishag, a Shunammite, and brought her to the king. 4 The woman was very beautiful; she took care of the king and waited on him, but the king had no sexual relations with her.

So whatever did or did not go on between them, they were still considered to be a virgins. Maybe that part of their body was off limits. Do not look, do not touch. Although Mary had a baby so I do not see how there could be any evidence of virginity in her case. Still when we get to Heaven we can be sure of one thing. Mary will be a perpetual virgin for all of eternity.

Remember Joseph was of the line of David. Jesus is king over Jerusalem because He is considered to have descended from David. Even though it was actually though Mary that he descended from David. His kingship is perpetual & never-ending.

 

[BNR32FAN]

There is even less evidence for the protestant version of the story of Mary and Joseph. Esp when you consider that Joseph does not seem to be around at the time of Jesus ministry which would support the idea that he was very advanced in years when Jesus was born.

The Genealogies start off with a marriage between Adam and Eve. then you have all the generations in between and all the marriages. WE end up with the marriage between Mary and Joseph. But none of these marriages are really held up as an example for us to follow. Instead we are to look at the relationship between Jesus and His Church or His Bride.

I would like to think that both Mary and Joseph were very loving people. Perhaps they took very good care of each other and had a good marriage. Even if it was a sexless marriage. Because she took a vow before God and he was just getting to be to old. As people grow older together it is not unheard of for their love and devotion for each other to grow. Marriage tends to go through stages just as we go though stages in life.

1Kings1 talks about a similar situation with David when he was old:

1 When King David was very old, he could not keep warm even when they put covers over him. 2 So his attendants said to him, “Let us look for a young virgin to serve the king and take care of him. She can lie beside him so that our lord the king may keep warm.”

3 Then they searched throughout Israel for a beautiful young woman and found Abishag, a Shunammite, and brought her to the king. 4 The woman was very beautiful; she took care of the king and waited on him, but the king had no sexual relations with her.

So whatever did or did not go on between them, they were still considered to be a virgins. Maybe that part of their body was off limits. Do not look, do not touch. Although Mary had a baby so I do not see how there could be any evidence of virginity in her case. Still when we get to Heaven we can be sure of one thing. Mary will be a perpetual virgin for all of eternity.

Remember Joseph was of the line of David. Jesus is king over Jerusalem because He is considered to have descended from David. Even though it was actually though Mary that he descended from David. His kingship is perpetual & never-ending.

Well one thing to consider is where we’re Joseph’s children during their travels? Only Joseph, Mary, and Jesus are mentioned in every one of their travels. It seems a bit strange that he was married and had a wife to take care of all the children but they were never mentioned until after Jesus’ ministry began. Perhaps they could’ve been taking care of their grandparents. Who knows?

 

[joshua 1 9]

Well one thing to consider is where we’re Joseph’s children during their travels? Only Joseph, Mary, and Jesus are mentioned in every one of their travels. It seems a bit strange that he was married and had a wife to take care of all the children but they were never mentioned until after Jesus’ ministry began. Perhaps they could’ve been taking care of their grandparents. Who knows?

We are told that James was 12 years old and Mary took good care of him. So he was closest to Jesus. The other children were already married and independent. Even Mary was suppose to be only 12 years old at the time they were given out to be married. Only she protested and they did not want to force her into it. They had to come up with a solution that she would agree with.

John was suppose to take care of Mary but we do not hear much of anything about her from him. Most of what we know about Mary we learn from Luke. No one else seemed to be very interested to spend time with her to ask her questions. Although she seemed to love to tell stores about Jesus. When we get to Heaven I am sure we will have lots of questions. We will not have to wonder then, we can just ask her ourselves.

 

[eleos1954]

Some of the reasons:

“BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL,” which translated means, “GOD WITH US.” (Matthew 1:23, 1995 NASB)

Which is based on the OT verse:
“Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel. (Isaiah 7:14, 1995 NASB)

Also:
In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. (Luke 1:26-27, 1995 NIV)

“And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus.
...
Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I am a virgin?” (Luke 1:31, 34, 1995 NASB)

This last passage indicates that Mary did not understand how it was possible for her to have a child (which the angel explained after her question). In general, however, since in Jewish culture referring to a virgin was the same as referring to a young women, there is no real reason to question the definition of virgin. (i.e., premarital sex was very bad as we can see in various narratives.)

We are told that James was 12 years old and Mary took good care of him. So he was closest to Jesus. The other children were already married and independent. Even Mary was suppose to be only 12 years old at the time they were given out to be married. Only she protested and they did not want to force her into it. They had to come up with a solution that she would agree with.

Both Mary and Joseph knew they had not had sexual relationships and both were pretty befuddled about it. An angel appear to each of them to clear that matter up. They believed it ... so do we. Divine intervention by God Himself, rather than pro-creation that God gave to His creatures, including mankind. It wasn't a "solution" by them, it was a divine act of God explained fully to both of them ... and they both believed God ... so should we.

God Bless.

 

[blackribbon]

Folks, this is Traditional Theology, not General Theology. We welcome everyone who posts here, but please read the Statement of Purpose regarding what this forum is set up for.

Traditionally, the Church DID teach that Mary remained a virgin, as there were some doubts that arose among some within the first few centuries. There are a number of reasons this was held as belief, not only the Protoevangelium of James. Even those who put little stock in the PoJ recognize Mary as a perpetual virgin.

There are answers to each of the particular quotes from Scripture that modern denominations assume mean otherwise and we can talk about each of them. (No time at the moment - I think most everyone who posts here is in Church and I need to be soon.)

Mary was regarded as a lifelong virgin by essentially all Christians until just a few centuries ago when it was assumed against Catholicism and Marian devotion - which Orthodox would agree was excessive at times in their case, yet we don't change what was always believed to counter it.

But if you are not a Traditional Christian (see the SOP for a definition), please don't post debate and your own opinion, because those are against the rules for TT (see the SOP) and I don't want to see folks get in trouble.

I'm sure we can answer more in depth later today.

God be with us all.

I believe that only that Catholic church teaches that Mary was a perpetual virgin. I was raised in the Lutheran church which I believe would qualify as a traditional church and was taught that since Joseph was only told not to touch Mary until she gave birth to Jesus that theirs became a traditional consummated marriage with additional children....mentioned in the verse I posted above

 

[~Anastasia~]

I believe that only that Catholic church teaches that Mary was a perpetual virgin. I was raised in the Lutheran church which I believe would qualify as a traditional church and was taught that since Joseph was only told not to touch Mary until she gave birth to Jesus that theirs became a traditional consummated marriage with additional children....mentioned in the verse I posted above

Not only the Catholics but also Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, etc. - basically all of the ancient Churches.

I'm actually surprised that's the teaching of Lutheranism, since Luther himself (and Calvin as well as Zwingli apparently) also affirmed Mary as perpetually virgin. It really wasn't a widespread question that I'm aware of until well after the Reformation.

 

[eleos1954]

Hi Family,

What is the biblical basis for Mary being considered as a virgin?

What about the fact that she had kids or a kid after Jesus which requires sex?

~Natsumi Lam~

What is the biblical basis for Mary being considered as a virgin?

She had not had sex with any man including Joseph before giving birth to Jesus. Her first conception was by divine intervention (miracle, act of God) only and not due to human to human pro-creation (sex - reproduce). This had to be else Jesus would have been born with the human sin nature that is passed down through Adam and Eve. Jesus was born sinless.

What about the fact that she had kids or a kid after Jesus which requires sex?

After she gave birth to Jesus, she had sexual relations with Joseph and had several children strictly via human to human pro-creation reproduction process, no divine intervention.

After having sex with Joseph she was no longer a virgin (a person who has never had sexual intercourse) and of course if perfectly acceptable in marriage.

God Bless.