Martin Luther's Teaching on Predestination.

[Tangible]

As has been stated many times, Luther made many statements and his doctrine changed and developed over time.

Lutherans, although we use his name, are not bound by everything Luther ever wrote. That would be idolatry.

Confessional Lutherans voluntarily bind themselves to the Book of Concord, much but not all of which was written by Luther or written under his guidance, and some of which antedates and postdates Luther.

We do so because the BoC is an accurate presentation and summary of the doctrines taught in Holy Scripture, which is the sole rule and norm of our theology.

 

[Tangible]

You present that.

You think you don't, but you do.

One can not have sufficiency without benefit or it was...INsufficient.

For the record EVERY Lutheran sect presents LIMITED ATONEMENT regardless of whether they think they do or not.

s

I see here two main options.

1) "Every Lutheran sect" (all the orthodox pastors, all the orthodox seminary teachers, all the orthodox theologians, all the way back to the writers of the Confessions) have thought they were teaching one thing when actually, ignorantly, and mistakenly, they have been teaching something else, and that many of these pastors and associated laymen gave up their lives and abandoned their homeland in order to preserve this mistaken and erroneous teaching of the Lutheran Confessions ...

OR

2) There are a handful of laypeople who do not quite grasp the finer details of the teachings of the Lutheran Confessions or who look outside the Confessions to form their own theological opinions that are at odds with the Confessions, and who post on theological bulletin boards in an attempt to broadcast their mistaken assumptions and to forward their own agenda.

I think I'll go with option #2.

 

[squint]

I see here two main options.

1) "Every Lutheran sect" (all the orthodox pastors, all the orthodox seminary teachers, all the orthodox theologians, all the way back to the writers of the Confessions) have thought they were teaching one thing when actually, ignorantly, and mistakenly, they have been teaching something else, and that many of these pastors and associated laymen gave up their lives and abandoned their homeland in order to preserve this mistaken and erroneous teaching of the Lutheran Confessions ...

OR

2) There are a handful of laypeople who do not quite grasp the finer details of the teachings of the Lutheran Confessions or who look outside the Confessions to form their own theological opinions that are at odds with the Confessions, and who post on theological bulletin boards in an attempt to broadcast their mistaken assumptions and to forward their own agenda.

I think I'll go with option #2.

Sorry but I happen to know a LOT of extremely intelligent believing Lutherans who do not subscribe to either of the above.

Argumentum ad populous or ad numerum will NEVER move a TRUE LUTHERAN even if such claims were made by other LUTHERANS....

What I pointed out to in your formula was that you are pulling a fast one similar to the RCC in claiming on one hand the atonement is sufficient for ALL and then on the other hand making it entirely insufficient for anyone who doesn't believe. That is NOT universal atonement. That's double talk.

And I also said that every Lutheran sect does in fact teach LIMITED ATONEMENT and they (perhaps like you) are not even aware of it.

If you need examples of this please ask. Otherwise you'll just have to not know what you actually hold, even while holding it.

Technically there are few, if any sects that hold universal atonement. I certainly don't.

s

 

[PaladinValer]

I'll trust the words of a catechized Lutheran, especially from the Missouri Synod, on the subject of Lutheranism over those of anyone else.

If I were to go into TC, I'm pretty sure I'd be told by him and those of the three major Lutheran bodies in the US that he is right; I've seen enough posts there and by Lutherans elsewhere, especially in General Theology, by Tangible, ViaCrucis, and others to know that the whole "Lutherans are lying about what they teach in this thread" is baseless.

Really, it is nothing less than insinuating Vatican Catholics worship St. Mary the Theotokos...it is both rude and sinful for its bearing of false witness.

Leave the Lutherans alone and stop spreading lies.

 

[squint]

I'll trust the words of a catechized Lutheran, especially from the Missouri Synod, on the subject of Lutheranism over those of anyone else.

To say that the LCMS is the majority of Lutherans or the only official Lutheran view is absurdity.

Not even they make that claim because it's not true.

 

[Albion]

I see here two main options.

1) "Every Lutheran sect" (all the orthodox pastors, all the orthodox seminary teachers, all the orthodox theologians, all the way back to the writers of the Confessions) have thought they were teaching one thing when actually, ignorantly, and mistakenly, they have been teaching something else, and that many of these pastors and associated laymen gave up their lives and abandoned their homeland in order to preserve this mistaken and erroneous teaching of the Lutheran Confessions ...

OR

2) There are a handful of laypeople who do not quite grasp the finer details of the teachings of the Lutheran Confessions or who look outside the Confessions to form their own theological opinions that are at odds with the Confessions, and who post on theological bulletin boards in an attempt to broadcast their mistaken assumptions and to forward their own agenda.

I think I'll go with option #2.

Well, the idea that "every Lutheran sect presents Limited Atonement" just isn't true. Period. You could argue that they "present" all the other points in the TULIP line-up before you could make this particular one stick.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

As has been stated many times, Luther made many statements and his doctrine changed and developed over time.

Lutherans, although we use his name, are not bound by everything Luther ever wrote. That would be idolatry.

Confessional Lutherans voluntarily bind themselves to the Book of Concord, much but not all of which was written by Luther or written under his guidance, and some of which antedates and postdates Luther.

We do so because the BoC is an accurate presentation and summary of the doctrines taught in Holy Scripture, which is the sole rule and norm of our theology.

I see here two main options.

1) "Every Lutheran sect" (all the orthodox pastors, all the orthodox seminary teachers, all the orthodox theologians, all the way back to the writers of the Confessions) have thought they were teaching one thing when actually, ignorantly, and mistakenly, they have been teaching something else, and that many of these pastors and associated laymen gave up their lives and abandoned their homeland in order to preserve this mistaken and erroneous teaching of the Lutheran Confessions ...

OR

2) There are a handful of laypeople who do not quite grasp the finer details of the teachings of the Lutheran Confessions or who look outside the Confessions to form their own theological opinions that are at odds with the Confessions, and who post on theological bulletin boards in an attempt to broadcast their mistaken assumptions and to forward their own agenda.

I think I'll go with option #2.

Sorry but I happen to know a LOT of extremely intelligent believing Lutherans who do not subscribe to either of the above.

Argumentum ad populous or ad numerum will NEVER move a TRUE LUTHERAN even if such claims were made by other LUTHERANS....

What I pointed out to in your formula was that you are pulling a fast one similar to the RCC in claiming on one hand the atonement is sufficient for ALL and then on the other hand making it entirely insufficient for anyone who doesn't believe. That is NOT universal atonement. That's double talk.

And I also said that every Lutheran sect does in fact teach LIMITED ATONEMENT and they (perhaps like you) are not even aware of it.

If you need examples of this please ask. Otherwise you'll just have to not know what you actually hold, even while holding it.

Technically there are few, if any sects that hold universal atonement. I certainly don't.

s

Here at CF, non Lutherans know more about what Lutherans believe, practice and teach; I've also noticed that these same non Lutherans are also non Catholics, and also know more about what the Catholic Church believes, practices and teaches.

It is most reassuring that the pure water of truth and enlightenment is poured out so liberally upon us poor confused Lutherans and Catholics... such grace knows no bounds!

I'll trust the words of a catechized Lutheran, especially from the Missouri Synod, on the subject of Lutheranism over those of anyone else.

If I were to go into TC, I'm pretty sure I'd be told by him and those of the three major Lutheran bodies in the US that he is right; I've seen enough posts there and by Lutherans elsewhere, especially in General Theology, by Tangible, ViaCrucis, and others to know that the whole "Lutherans are lying about what they teach in this thread" is baseless.

Thank you Paladin, you are correct.

Really, it is nothing less than insinuating Vatican Catholics worship St. Mary the Theotokos...it is both rude and sinful for its bearing of false witness.

Yes, it is.

Leave the Lutherans alone and stop spreading lies.

As if that will ever happen; at least it's giving our Catholic brothers and sisters a bit of a break!

God bless

 

[squint]

Well, the idea that "every Lutheran sect presents Limited Atonement" just isn't true. Period. You could argue that they "present" all the other points in the TULIP line-up before you could make this particular one viable.

There are no LUTHERANS that present atonement sufficient for SATAN or DEVILS that I am aware of Albion.

There is the FIRST LIMIT and quite a secure LIMIT if I may say so.

I doubt you have any different on that count either. And the RCC takes the same stance as well as just about every christian sect on the planet.

Now, count down to matters in the creation. Did God die so the evergreen tree in your front yard can have eternal life?

You get the picture, I'm sure.

Too many times we get caught up in 'false terminology.' Believers think they have unlimited atonement when they are in fact not even close to that kind of extension.

s

 

[squint]

Here at CF, non Lutherans know more about what Lutherans believe, practice and teach; I've also noticed that these same non Lutherans are also non Catholics, and also know more about what the Catholic Church believes, practices and teaches.

It is most reassuring that the pure water of truth and enlightenment is poured out so liberally upon us poor confused Lutherans and Catholics... such grace knows no bounds!

If you want to claim 'broad based' agreement such as what is here with the Nicene creed that is one matter.

IF the LCMS and the ELCA were cut from the identical Lutheran cloth they would all be one or the other and that is not the case.

s

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

There are no LUTHERANS that present atonement sufficient for SATAN or DEVILS that I am aware of Albion.

There is the FIRST LIMIT and quite a secure LIMIT if I may say so.

I doubt you have any different on that count either. And the RCC takes the same stance as well as just about every christian sect on the planet.

Now, count down to matters in the creation. Did God die so the evergreen tree in your front yard can have eternal life?

You get the picture, I'm sure.

Too many times we get caught up in 'false terminology.' Believers think they have unlimited atonement when they are in fact not even close to that kind of extension.

s

Was our Lord Jesus Christ incarnated as an Angel? Was He incarnated as a coniferous tree? He was incarnated as a human, so the context of the discussion can only be about mankind, not angels and demons, not foliage and shrubberies.

Shrubbery - YouTube

 

[Albion]

Here at CF, non Lutherans know more about what Lutherans believe, practice and teach; I've also noticed that these same non Lutherans are also non Catholics, and also know more about what the Catholic Church believes, practices and teaches.

It is most reassuring that the pure water of truth and enlightenment is poured out so liberally upon us poor confused Lutherans and Catholics... such grace knows no bounds!

Mark, I'd be interested in knowing where that POV comes from--or is it just the automatic defense mode to go into when anyone not a member says something about one's own church? For one thing, many folks who are not Lutheran or Catholic at present WERE Lutheran or Catholic in the past. Do we assume that with a new membership, one's memory is wiped clean?

We would all hesitate to say that another poster can't know anything about, say, fine art unless he's a painter himself, but when it comes to religion, membership is supposed to suddenly make anyone a theologian! Conversely, anyone who is not a member must obviously be totally ignorant of everything relating to that church.

 

[squint]

Was our Lord Jesus Christ incarnated as an Angel? Was He incarnated as a coniferous tree? He was incarnated as a human, so the context of the discussion can only be about mankind, not angels and demons, not foliage and shrubberies.

The RCC certainly has an official position that the ATONEMENT was insufficient for SATAN and DEVILS.

and so do YOU by elimination of them from eligibility, even if you don't 'get it.'

s

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Mark, I'd be interested in knowing where that POV comes from--or is it just the automatic defense mode to go into when anyone not a member says something about one's own church? For one thing, many folks who are not Lutheran or Catholic at present WERE Lutheran or Catholic in the past. Do we assume that with a new membership, one's memory is wiped clean?

We would all hesitate to say that another poster can't know anything about, say, fine art unless he's a painter himself, but when it comes to religion, membership is supposed to suddenly make anyone a theologian! Conversely, anyone who is not a member must obviously be totally ignorant of everything relating to that church.

Forgive me if I'm getting a bit cheesed; over the last few days I've been assailed by those who tell me my understanding of my Churches theology is completely wrong, that the confessions do not say what they do; all this from those who have never read any more than a quote here and there from our Confessions (let alone study them); then pick and chose points out of context to support their position.

It is way usually easier to discuss and debate reasonably with a Roman Catholic than with a Reformed Protestant because we know where each other is at; we don't need to tell each other what the other believes, teaches and practices.

Next week, it's possible that SDAs will claim that Luther was a SDA.

I think I should walk away from this thread for a while.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

The RCC certainly has an official position that the ATONEMENT was insufficient for SATAN and DEVILS.

and so do YOU by elimination of them from eligibility, even if you don't 'get it.'

s

If such is the case then you are saying that Christ's human incarnation irrelevant?

I guess if believe that Luther is a predestination, then theology including the nature of Christs human incarnation, and His dual nature human and divine holds no more relevance than if it was angelic and divine or spruce and divine.

Christ was incarnated as a man, because His ministry, death and resurrection was to save mankind. Scripture tells us He died for all... His human death was for Humans, it was not an angelic death, nor was it the death of a tree.

With regard to mankind, there is no such thing as limited atonement in Christianity. Christ was sent to save no other beings than we who constitute mankind, we know this from Scripture, which God caused to be written for mankind, not angels and demons, not puppies and kitties, not fish nor birds.

 

[squint]

It's the information age.

These matters are no longer covered up by anyone's opinions. Anyone who has an interest doesn't have to immerse themselves into a potential sect driven brainwashing session to find out their particulars anymore THANK GOD!

The ELCA is 'technically' the largest LUTHERAN association. And they for example are PRO CHOICE and are in full communion with many other protestant bodies who are likewise, ahem, very liberal, obviously.

Most of the Lutherans where I grew up were ELCA and LCA prior to their merger. There were very few LCMS as they were mostly German and they settled further south. Apparently in MISSOURI. Imagine that?

The LCMS isn't in full communion with anyone but themselves and are PRO-LIFE.

I am more than familiar enough as I care to be with LCMS doctrines as when I WAS an active LCA member they condemned me to burn alive forever to my face for not being LCMS.

So yeah, I tend to take these kinds of things 'personal.'

Guess I dunnO anything though huh? Other than I'm damned to hell forever by LCMS hardliners or at least have been by some of them.

Whether they were speaking truthfully or not I can not say. I really didn't care to set foot in one of their assemblies to 'officially' figure it out.

s

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

It's the information age.

These matters are no longer covered up by anyone's opinions. Anyone who has an interest doesn't have to immerse themselves into a potential sect driven brainwashing session to find out their particulars anymore THANK GOD!

The ELCA is 'technically' the largest LUTHERAN association. And they for example are PRO CHOICE and are in full communion with many other protestant bodies who are likewise, ahem, very liberal, obviously.

Most of the Lutherans where I grew up were ELCA and LCA prior to their merger. There were very few LCMS as they were mostly German and they settled further south. Apparently in MISSOURI. Imagine that?

The LCMS isn't in full communion with anyone but themselves and are PRO-LIFE.

I am more than familiar enough as I care to be with LCMS doctrines as when I WAS an active LCA member they condemned me to burn alive forever to my face for not being LCMS.

So yeah, I tend to take these kinds of things 'personal.'

Guess I dunnO anything though huh? Other than I'm damned to hell forever by LCMS hardliners or at least have been by some of them.

Whether they were speaking truthfully or not I can not say. I really didn't care to set foot in one of their assemblies to 'officially' figure it out.

s

You are correct, the ELCA/ELCIC have embraced protestant doctrine.

Much clearer now that I understand why we "Confessional" types have been banging our heads against the wall, and why our opinions matter not.

Actually the LCMS is in full fellowship with many Synods; mine LCC, the Australian Lutheran Church, the Lutheran Church in the Philippines, Lutherans in Kenya, the free Church in Germany, the Ukrainian LC, and many, many more in the Lutheran World Federation.

 

[squint]

If such is the case then you are saying that Christ's human incarnation irrelevant?

Well, thank you for stooping to speak to me.

Certainly not saying that doesn't have a bearing on LIMITED ATONEMENT Mark.

I am a limited atonement believer myself as are, I expect, 99.999% of christian sects.

I just protest the use of the term 'unlimited' as it obviously isn't, even by the claimers.

The RCC for example does claim unlimited atonement, even while they factually LIMIT same. I'm just not a fan of double talk, that's all.

I guess if believe that Luther is a predestination, then theology including the nature of Christs human incarnation, and His dual nature human and divine holds no more relevance than if it was angelic and divine or spruce and divine.

When I 'was' confirmed in the LCA we were taught that we had freewill.

One of my great great great's built the first Norwegian Lutheran church in the U.S. (or so it is claimed) in Dane County Wisconsin, so my 'local Lutheran roots' run pretty deep and I am also quite entirely FOND of them even though in classic PROTESTANT style I'm nobody's pawn boy.

I am very familiar with the internal struggles that LUTHERANS have engaged in over PREDESTINATION.

Most Lutherans are prone to discussing everything possible without hesitations, between each others. Especially after a couple pots of coffee on 40 degree below zero mornings in Minnesota.

Christ was incarnated as a man, because His ministry, death and resurrection was to save mankind. Scripture tells us He died for all... His human death was for Humans, it was not an angelic death, nor was it the death of a tree.

But you do understand that there is no small amount of scriptural evidence for various views on these matters.

For example in the interests of kindness to my own heart I believe my pets are going to be in heaven.... And most of them are far more deserving than many people I know...

and IF PRESSED I can PROVE IT from the scriptures even if some other Lutheran disagrees with me. Usually the only ones who don't agree are the ones who never had milk cows and a good blue heeler in the winter time.

I have.

With regard to mankind, there is no such thing as limited atonement in Christianity.

Now, seriously, you have to be kidding with that statement Mark. I will not say you are naive.

Most double pre Calvins are assuredly LIMITED ATONEMENT folk and some of them will claim at least a partial basis from Luther as they rightfully can.

s

 

[squint]

Actually the LCMS is in full fellowship with many Synods; mine LCC, the Australian Lutheran Church, the Lutheran Church in the Philippines, Lutherans in Kenya, the free Church in Germany, the Ukrainian LC, and many, many more in the Lutheran World Federation.

I presume their doctrinal sets are VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL to the LCMS and that the locale is the only differentiation?

IF not, I stand corrected. Where I grew up the LCMS were the radical right wing hardliner Lutherans.

The others of us were (and are) considerably 'kinder' in our extensions to our neighbors, and a lot of that came about because we had to be in the harsh northern climates. And a LOT of the former Lutheran congregations moved into the EVANGELICAL FREE body when they died out in the rural congregations and the church was only 'in town.'

We actually had to rely on our neighbors who did not believe 'like us.'

And that tended to grow liberal over time.

s

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Well, thank you for stooping to speak to me.

Certainly not saying that doesn't have a bearing on LIMITED ATONEMENT Mark.

I am a limited atonement believer myself as are, I expect, 99.999% of christian sects.

I just protest the use of the term 'unlimited' as it obviously isn't, even by the claimers.

The RCC for example does claim unlimited atonement, even while they factually LIMIT same. I'm just not a fan of double talk, that's all.



When I 'was' confirmed in the LCA we were taught that we had freewill.

One of my great great great's built the first Norwegian Lutheran church in the U.S. (or so it is claimed) in Dane County Wisconsin, so my 'local Lutheran roots' run pretty deep and I am also quite entirely FOND of them even though in classic PROTESTANT style I'm nobody's pawn boy.

I am very familiar with the internal struggles that LUTHERANS have engaged in over PREDESTINATION.

Most Lutherans are prone to discussing everything possible without hesitations, between each others. Especially after a couple pots of coffee on 40 degree below zero mornings in Minnesota.



But you do understand that there is no small amount of scriptural evidence for various views on these matters.

For example in the interests of kindness to my own heart I believe my pets are going to be in heaven.... And most of them are far more deserving than many people I know...

and IF PRESSED I can PROVE IT from the scriptures even if some other Lutheran disagrees with me. Usually the only ones who don't agree are the ones who never had milk cows and a good blue heeler in the winter time.

I have.



Now, seriously, you have to be kidding with that statement Mark. I will not say you are naive.

Most double pre Calvins are assuredly LIMITED ATONEMENT folk and some of them will claim at least a partial basis from Luther as they rightfully can.

s

My family also has been here a long time; fleeing Alsace in the early 1800 so they could remain faithfully Confessional, being founding members of the oldest Lutheran Congregation in Ontario, where I attended for many years, and now attend another steadfastly Confessional congregation that was the result of mission efforts of that first Congregation.

I maintain, as Luther taught, that there is no limited atonement, in that Christ died for all. The only factor that limits atonement is free will. At creation we were predestined to live eternally. God is our Father, we are His children; we are still predestined for heaven, not hell, however free will allows us to defy God. We can not chose God, God chose us; but we can chose to reject God.

Unlimited atonement, single predestination.

BTW, I'm a farm boy also, dairy, beef, hogs, chickens, cattle and hunting dogs, and cats in the barn, and now one in the house. I truly believe that there will be animals in paradise; the lion and the lamb etc. Will they be mine? ...Personally I doubt it; but they will be ours.

 

[squint]

My family also has been here a long time; fleeing Alsace in the early 1800 so they could remain faithfully Confessional, being founding members of the oldest Lutheran Congregation in Ontario, where I attended for many years, and now attend another steadfastly Confessional congregation that was the result of mission efforts of that first Congregation.

I can appreciate historical roots. Many are reluctant to let go of such. It can be very difficult, this faith.

I maintain, as Luther taught, that there is no limited atonement, in that Christ died for all. The only factor that limits atonement is free will.

Then you understand my objection to such statements also?

And yes, there is another detailed conversation or two beneath this matter as well. I know. I've had them.

Technically speaking if the atonement does 'any party' no good whatsoever on 'whatever basis' it was in fact limited.

At creation we were predestined to live eternally. God is our Father, we are His children; we are still predestined for heaven, not hell, however free will allows us to defy God. We can not chose God, God chose us; but we can chose to reject God.

I personally do not hold the view that God will burn His own children alive in fire forever for any reason, but that is just liberal me.

I look in other directions in the text to see the reasons people believe they way they do or whether they don't believe at all.

You may also not hold it against me for digging into people in order to get under their hide as that is usually the only way I can know what they might really be made of.

Anyone can recite the requirements of being a Lutheran in cathecism. But it takes a real one to live a life in faith on the street, or so my Grandma and parents taught me.

Unlimited atonement, single predestination.

As stated, I only object to the surface logical fallacy and go straight for the fact of limited atonement without the double hitch.

And some Lutherans *NOT saying I am one now* will protest predestination ENTIRELY on the basis of freewill incompatibility.

Predestination is fairly complex territory. A lot of associated terms start coming into play. Admittedly difficult.

BTW, I'm a farm boy also, dairy, beef, hogs, chickens, cattle and hunting dogs, and cats in the barn, and now one in the house. I truly believe that there will be animals in paradise; the lion and the lamb etc. Will they be mine? ...Personally I doubt it; but they will be ours.

Well, see how easy that was?!

Amazing.

s