Martin Harris, JJ Strang, and a witnesses' testimony

[christopher123]

Interesting man, Martin Harris.

As Doc pointed out in another thread, his stories/beliefs were prone to change quite frequently. Before meeting up with Joseph Smith, Harris had been a Quaker, a Universallist, a Restorationist, a Baptist, a Presbyterian and perhaps a Methodist too. Upon his first split with Joseph Smith (Kirtland Bank Fraud), he went with Warren Parish's group, then split with that and came back with Smith. After Smith's death, Harris went with JJ Strang's group first, then left them and went with David Whitmer and Mclellin, then left them and hooked up with Gladded Bishop in another splinter group, then left him by 1855, and joined up with William Smith back in Kirtland. After this group dissolved, a destitute Harris moved out to Utah for the last few years of his life, sitting on a porch telling stories of the wonders of the restoration.


By the way I seriously recommend everyone do an indepth study on JJ Strang, including the ancient records that HE unearthed, angelic visits, and the signed testimonies of people who handled his ancient books. Hmm, does this all sound familiar?

The only living BOM witness who did not join at some point with Strang was Cowdery. Lucy Smith even joined up with him. So much for testimonies of unearthed ancient records.


Chris <><

 

[fatboys]

Interesting man, Martin Harris.

As Doc pointed out in another thread, his stories/beliefs were prone to change quite frequently. Before meeting up with Joseph Smith, Harris had been a Quaker, a Universallist, a Restorationist, a Baptist, a Presbyterian and perhaps a Methodist too. Upon his first split with Joseph Smith (Kirtland Bank Fraud), he went with Warren Parish's group, then split with that and came back with Smith. After Smith's death, Harris went with JJ Strang's group first, then left them and went with David Whitmer and Mclellin, then left them and hooked up with Gladded Bishop in another splinter group, then left him by 1855, and joined up with William Smith back in Kirtland. After this group dissolved, a destitute Harris moved out to Utah for the last few years of his life, sitting on a porch telling stories of the wonders of the restoration.


By the way I seriously recommend everyone do an indepth study on JJ Strang, including the ancient records that HE unearthed, angelic visits, and the signed testimonies of people who handled his ancient books. Hmm, does this all sound familiar?

The only living BOM witness who did not join at some point with Strang was Cowdery. Lucy Smith even joined up with him. So much for testimonies of unearthed ancient records.


Chris <><

Martin Harris was looking for a religion that fit a earlier vision he had had. He went from church to church looking for it. When Joseph Smith had came along, it was the same as the vision he had had earlier. Martin Harris did have a ego problem. Very successful in business, he was well respected as a fair and knowledgable man. He was called to help scribe for the Book of Lehi, which was lost by him. After this great mistake he made, things were not the same with him. He knew what he had done, and the guilt weighed heave on him. Still people were joining the church which seemed to have Joseph Smith ear over his own. Jealousy set in, and he begin to become disenchanted. As one person said, he did not leave the church, but he felt the church left him. Then when he left the church before Joseph Smiths murder, he felt he just did not belong any more. Pushed out. After his death, he wandered from splinter group to splinter group. Martin had sacrificed much for the church. And this was the thanks he got? Never was an apostle, never taken seriously. Again, his ego was very much a part of his problem, and it was not until he humbled himself that he begin to really see the truth. He had seen the Gold plates, he had seen an angel. One would think that would be enough. From my own personal experiences, these things are not what changes a person. It comes from a personal desire deep within.

 

[Brotherlee]

It's interesting to note that Harris claimed he had a greater witness to the truth of the Shakers than he ever had of the Book of Mormon. Harris was obviously unstable, and I'm pretty sure that his wife knew it (since she supposedly burned the original "translations" from Smith's book).

 

[christopher123]

Martin Harris was looking for a religion that fit a earlier vision he had had......

Any unsanitized (read non-LDS) study of Harris shows he was a nut, finding spectacular religious experiences with anything that came along.

Were you aware that he too, said he was lead to a box in Cumorah? Unfortunately, it began sinking back into the hill before he could get the top off. He also said he had vision after vision of angels, and warriors, and treasure, and Jesus and Satan.

No comment about J. Strang, fatboys? Certainly you are aware of him, and his ancient records of peoples that he found and translated and had witnesses vouch for, his angelic visits, and his authority which was confirmed by the previous witnesses and the majority of the Smith family?

Have you never heard of the "Book of the Law of the Lord" and the testimony of the witnesses who handled it with it's "unique workmanship" and it's "characters in a language which we have no knowledge"? Certainly we don't doubt the credibility of these witnesses?


Chris <><

 

[buddy mack]

It's interesting to note that Harris claimed he had a greater witness to the truth of the Shakers than he ever had of the Book of Mormon. Harris was obviously unstable, and I'm pretty sure that his wife knew it (since she supposedly burned the original "translations" from Smith's book).

come to think of it, i bet Emma would prefer ol jo would have been a shaker too, you wanta quess why?

 

[Brotherlee]

I was in touch with some Strangites when I was researching Mormon break-off groups. Actually, the Bickertonites (the Italian Mormons, I call them) are far more interesting. The Strangites have divided among themselves, but the Bickertonites (who trace authority to Rigdon) have made quite an impressive inroad in Africa.

 

[Brotherlee]

I was in touch with some Strangites when I was researching Mormon break-off groups. Actually, the Bickertonites (the Italian Mormons, I call them) are far more interesting. The Strangites have divided among themselves, but the Bickertonites (who trace authority to Rigdon) have made quite an impressive inroad in Africa.

 

[buddy mack]

I was in touch with some Strangites when I was researching Mormon break-off groups. Actually, the Bickertonites (the Italian Mormons, I call them) are far more interesting. The Strangites have divided among themselves, but the Bickertonites (who trace authority to Rigdon) have made quite an impressive inroad in Africa.

I thought the STAGNATITES were the BAPTIST?

 

[christopher123]

come to think of it, i bet Emma would prefer ol jo would have been a shaker too, you wanta quess why?

Are you trying to tell me that you have never used on your wife the old "an angel with a flaming sword told me I had to take this young girl as another wife or he said he would kill me" line?




Chris <><

 

[Brotherlee]

I thought the STAGNATITES were the BAPTIST?

Well, when you've encountered as many Baptists as I have who don't know a hoot about doctrine, it wouldn't shock me were some to think of Strang as an upstanding Christian. Most Christians who go into Mormonism are of Baptist background (how sad)! Woe to those shepherds who lose their flock to the false prophets of the day! Had they fed them a meal of spiritual discernment, the poisonous fare of false doctrine would have been rejected by the sheep in a NY minute!

 

[buddy mack]

Are you trying to tell me that you have never used on your wife the old "an angel with a flaming sword told me I had to take this young girl as another wife or he said he would kill me" line?




Chris <><

now as for my wife, i hav a 50/50 chance, but my 3 daughters are another thing, good thing ol jo didnt have daughters like mind.

 

[Doc T]

It's interesting to note that Harris claimed he had a greater witness to the truth of the Shakers than he ever had of the Book of Mormon. Harris was obviously unstable, and I'm pretty sure that his wife knew it (since she supposedly burned the original "translations" from Smith's book).

Perhaps you have been reading too much of the Tanner's lately.

Matt Roper had this to say about Martin Harris and his involvement with the Shakers:

Martin Harris never accepted all Shaker beliefs. For instance, while devoted Shakers advocated celibacy, Martin remained married during this period and had several children. Further, Harris never joined nearby communities of Shakers as the fully committed would have done. Shakers believed in spiritual gifts and emphasized preparation for Christ's Second Coming, things that Harris had believed even before he joined the Church. Even an early revelation to the Prophet Joseph Smith suggested that the Shakers had some truths (D&C 49:1-28). Harris was likely enthusiastic about certain elements of Shakerism that paralleled his own beliefs in a restoration, but he rejected other Shaker beliefs and practices, which his actions during these years clearly show.​

Doc

~

 

[Brotherlee]

Perhaps you have been reading too much of the Tanner's lately.



Matt Roper had this to say about Martin Harris and his involvement with the Shakers:

Martin Harris never accepted all Shaker beliefs. For instance, while devoted Shakers advocated celibacy, Martin remained married during this period and had several children. Further, Harris never joined nearby communities of Shakers as the fully committed would have done. Shakers believed in spiritual gifts and emphasized preparation for Christ's Second Coming, things that Harris had believed even before he joined the Church. Even an early revelation to the Prophet Joseph Smith suggested that the Shakers had some truths (D&C 49:1-28). Harris was likely enthusiastic about certain elements of Shakerism that paralleled his own beliefs in a restoration, but he rejected other Shaker beliefs and practices, which his actions during these years clearly show.​

Doc

~

And perhaps you haven't been reading enough! The reference was to the revelations of Ann Lee.

 

[Doc T]

Any unsanitized (read LDS) study of Harris shows he was a nut, finding spectacular religious experiences with anything that came along.

Read: Anti-mormon works.

No comment about J. Strang?

Chris <><

You mean like B. H. Roberts statements on Strang?

James J. Strang

First among these was one James J. Strang of Voree, Walworth county, in the southeast part of Wisconsin. He was but a recent convert to the Latter-day Saint faith at the death of the Prophet, having been baptized about four months previous to that event. Mr. Strang claimed that on the 18th of June, 1844, the Prophet Joseph wrote to him a letter of some considerable length, containing a revelation appointing him, James J. Strang, to be his successor as president and prophet of the church. The letter also appointed one Aaron Smith, Mr. Strang's counselor, and "commanded" the twelve apostles to proclaim Voree, Wisconsin, as the gathering place of the saints. Mr. Strang attempted to strengthen his claim to the position of president and prophet of the church by reference to the revelation which says:

"But verily, verily, I say unto you, that none else [than Joseph Smith] shall be appointed unto this gift [to receive revelations and commandments for the church] except it be through him [Joseph Smith] for if it be taken from him, he shall not have power except to appoint another in his stead."

Mr. Strang claimed that the appointment he received through the letter he represented as coming from Joseph Smith fulfilled the terms of the revelation above quoted; that is, he had been appointed through the Prophet. When he presented this "letter" and "revelation" to some of the saints in Michigan, they asked him if the twelve that were "commanded" in his "revelation" to proclaim Voree, Wisconsin, as the gathering place for the saints, were the twelve apostles at Nauvoo. Strang replied they were. Did they know anything of this "revelation?" They did not. Had he been ordained a prophet? He replied no. The saints were suspicious of his claims, and would not receive him.

This question as to his ordination presented a serious difficulty to Mr. Strang, a difficulty which he tried to surmount by announcing soon afterwards that immediately after the martyrdom of the Prophet Joseph, an angel appeared unto him and ordained him to be a "prophet" to the church, and the successor to Joseph Smith as the "president" thereof.

Not many followed him from Nauvoo, for there his influence amounted to little; but in the scattered branches, especially in those of Wisconsin, he succeeded in deceiving many. Among those who accepted and sustained his claims were William Smith, the only surviving brother of the Prophet Joseph; the notorious John C. Bennett; also John E. Page, one of the twelve, who for several years previous to Joseph's death had been in precarious fellowship with the church. John C. Bennett had first supported Sidney Rigdon's pretentions, claiming to have a sealed document from the Prophet Joseph--when as yet he was in full fellowship with the church--with a strict charge not to open it until after the Prophet's death. When he opened it, lo! it contained what purported to be a revelation from the deceased Prophet appointing Sidney Rigdon to be his successor. John C. Bennett averred that this was as it should be, and so eagerly was this purported revelation accepted by the supporters of Mr. Rigdon, that they had it published and widely circulated among the branches of the church. But when Mr. Strang came forward with his claims, John C. Bennett turned from Sidney Rigdon and supported Mr. Strang--having forgotten apparently, the "revelation" contained in the sealed document which appointed Mr. Rigdon president of the church.

John E. Page in support of the Strang movement, intercepted a company of saints in Michigan, en route from Canada to Nauvoo. He represented that it was the will of the Lord that they should settle in Voree, Wisconsin, Mr. Strang's gathering place, and not go to Nauvoo. This company, however, were prudent enough not to receive his representations without investigation. They sent messengers to Nauvoo who received such instruction from the twelve as to preserve them from the deceitfulness of this apostate apostle.

John E. Page continued to support the claims of James J. Strang, and for so doing was excommunicated from the church.

Mr. Strang in a short time changed his gathering place from Voree, Wisconsin, to Beaver Island, in the north end of Lake Michigan. He organized a township on Beaver Island, went to the state legislature and succeeded in having the whole group of islands in north Lake Michigan organized into a county, under the name of Manitou county, which for some years Mr. Strang represented in the Michigan state legislature.​

Or this by D. Michael Quinn:

James J. Strang had been baptized into the Church on 25 February 1844, and had left Nauvoo shortly thereafter to explore a possible location for the Mormons in Wisconsin. He claimed that while there he received a revelation in a letter from Joseph Smith dated 18 June 1844, which appointed him as Joseph's successor:

& now behold my servant James J Strang hath come to thee from far truth when he knew it not & hath not rejected it but hath had faith in thee the shepherd and stone of israel & to him shall the gathering of the people be fore he shall plant a stake of Zion in Wisconsin & I will establish it & there shall my people have peace & rest & shall not be mooved. . . .

Even at face value, the letter seemed to be no more than a local appointment, but Strang insisted the document designated him as Joseph's successor. Rather than presenting his claims to the Church in Nauvoo, Strang announced his position at a conference of the Church at Florence, Michigan, on 5 August 1844. The presiding elder of that branch, Crandall Dunn, denounced the claim as an imposture and observed that the postmark on the envelope of Strang's letter proved it to have been a forgery. Brigham Young in 1846 denounced the entire letter as a forgery: "Every person acquainted with Joseph Smith, and his style of dictation and writing might readily know that he never wrote nor caused to be written that letter to Strang." Modern analysts of the document have not only agreed with that verdict, but have also judged the signature of Joseph Smith on the letter to be a forgery. In addition to the letter, Strang also claimed that he had been ordained successor by an angel. Persisting in his claims, he was excommunicated by the branch at Florence, Michigan, on 5 August 1844, an action that was repeated by the apostles at Nauvoo.​

Doc

~

 

[Doc T]

And perhaps you haven't been reading enough! The reference was to the revelations of Ann Lee.

Perhaps if you got your paraphrase a bit more accurate, then it would me more obvious it was about a book and not about the Shakers. It still, however does not change anything.

Doc

~

 

[Brotherlee]

Perhaps if you got your paraphrase a bit more accurate, then it would me more obvious it was about a book and not about the Shakers. It still, however does not change anything.

Doc

~

I believe the Tanner's have got it right. His witness was regarding the Shaker testimony, which basically said that Ann Lee was the female incarnation. Of course, Harris never practiced celibacy, and went off to embrace nearly every weird sect of the day. By the way, are you a Christian or a Mormon?

 

[CaliforniaKid]

Last year when I was browsing the History of the Church, I noticed something interesting. Check out how Joseph describes Harris' vision of the Book of Mormon:

I now left David and Oliver, and went in pursuit of Martin Harris, whom I found at a considerable distance, fervently engaged in prayer. He soon told me, however, that he had not yet prevailed with the Lord, and earnestly requested me to join him in prayer... before we had yet finished, the same vision was opened to our view, at least it was again opened to me, and I once more beheld and heard the same things; whilst at the same moment, Martin Harris cried out, apparently in an ecstasy of joy, "'Tis enough; 'tis enough; mine eyes have beheld; mine eyes have beheld" (HC v. 1 p. 55).

After saying that "the vision was opened to our view," Joseph quickly corrects himself: "at least it was again opened to me." The prophet also says that Martin Harris was "apparently" caught up in an ecstasy of joy. Why would the prophet use these qualifiers? Did he doubt that Martin Harris had actually seen the vision? Did he suspect that Harris might have been merely playing along? If the prophet himself questioned Martin Harris' testimony, why should non-Mormons be expected to accept it unequivocally? And if Harris was only pretending to see the vision, couldn't Cowdery and Whitmer have done the same?​

-CK

 

[Brotherlee]

Last year when I was browsing the History of the Church, I noticed something interesting. Check out how Joseph describes Harris' vision of the Book of Mormon:

I now left David and Oliver, and went in pursuit of Martin Harris, whom I found at a considerable distance, fervently engaged in prayer. He soon told me, however, that he had not yet prevailed with the Lord, and earnestly requested me to join him in prayer... before we had yet finished, the same vision was opened to our view, at least it was again opened to me, and I once more beheld and heard the same things; whilst at the same moment, Martin Harris cried out, apparently in an ecstasy of joy, "'Tis enough; 'tis enough; mine eyes have beheld; mine eyes have beheld" (HC v. 1 p. 55).

After saying that "the vision was opened to our view," Joseph quickly corrects himself: "at least it was again opened to me." The prophet also says that Martin Harris was "apparently" caught up in an ecstasy of joy. Why would the prophet use these qualifiers? Did he doubt that Martin Harris had actually seen the vision? Did he suspect that Harris might have been merely playing along? If the prophet himself questioned Martin Harris' testimony, why should non-Mormons be expected to accept it unequivocally? And if Harris was only pretending to see the vision, couldn't Cowdery and Whitmer have done the same?​

-CK

All three of the main witnesses left the Mormon Church (I think two returned), but you'd think that the stupendous site of these gold plates would have made them think twice about leaving! Of course, they saw the plates with their "spiritual eyes," and who knows what spirit effected their eyes!

 

[A New Dawn]

All three of the main witnesses left the Mormon Church (I think two returned), but you'd think that the stupendous site of these gold plates would have made them think twice about leaving! Of course, they saw the plates with their "spiritual eyes," and who knows what spirit effected their eyes!

Why would it cause them to think twice? What the restoration morphed into over the 14 years before JS was killed was nothing like what the church was when it was restored. I would think that if they were seeking for that church, they would have found the reorganization. They should have sought out the Stone-Campbell movement at the very least instead of returning to something they did not believe to be true even though it carried the same name.

 

[christopher123]

Read: Anti-mormon works.

No, read: "not mormon apologetics"

You mean like B. H. Roberts statements on Strang?

Good stuff as is Quinn's. It is amazing also how many of the mormon "elite" followed Strang and made pronouncements of his authority, (which you forgot to include in your cut and paste), but I was refering more to Strang's angelic visits, unearthing plates with more writings from that pesky pre-columbian civilization that FARMS cannot locate, and in particular the testimony of the witnesses who saw and handled Strang's metal plates.

Surely this stuff is a least mentioned during the church history section of Sunday School when talking about the rock solid testimony of the BOM witnesses for comparision?

Chris <><