Marrying a Non-Christian Woman

[Catherineanne]

The Holy Spirit is not an infallible guide?

The Holy Spirit is an infallible guide and wisdom through experience will attest to this

The Holy Spirit is indeed infallible. Our hearing, on the other hand, is not, and our understanding even worse. We are far too prone to creating God in our own image, and assuming that he has the same failings as we have; our same prejudices, bigotries and assumptions. This is true of everyone, without exception.

This is why we ought NEVER to claim we have anything right until we check it with our ministers or another Christian we can trust.

 

[W2L]

2 Cor.6:14 What problem do you have with this verse?

I have no problem with it, matter of fact it has been instrumental in my faith. I do have a problem with people using it to define marriage though because that's not the intent, not in my opinion anyway, although it could apply in some ways. It says that if we come out from among the unbelievers and touch not the unclean thing, that God will receive us as sons and daughters. However a marriage between an unbeliever and believer is sanctified and not unclean, according to my understanding anyway so its not the unclean thing, that I can see anyway.

My problem is with how people have have misused that scripture, in my opinion, to refer to marriage while at the same time ignoring the greater context of it. We see similar language in Revelation, when God commands his people to come out of Babylon and not share in her sins. The kings of the earth commit fornication with the harlot of Babylon and we are commanded not to share in her sins. Christians will easily enough agree with unbelievers in political matters, and divide themselves over it too which is a sin, and they will promote covetousness through economic policies, and death penalties as well although Christ teaches mercy not death. This in my opinion is what it means to be unequally yoked with unbeliever. Christians will flee from false teachers but follow politicians who are no better because they are skilled in the art of deception and they divide us just as a false teacher would, and they do this for worldly power, and not for the kingdom of Christ.

 

[Catherineanne]

Of course Paul did meet Christ. He not only met him but had a conversation with him! Paul received the gospel directly from his Lord, who tasked him with delivering to (mostly) the Gentiles.

His teachings are NOT in conflict with Christ, as he was given the message from Christ himself.

I'm not sure which bible you're reading (or not reading) as Paul did go to Jerusalem to meet with the apostles there, including Jesus' brother Yakov, a.k.a. James, and they extended the right hand of fellowship to him and sent him on his way with approval to teach the gospel to the Gentiles.

Finally the church has not strayed from Christ. The church is his body and he is the head.

It's all there in scripture!

Paul did not meet the historic Jesus. He encountered the Holy Spirit, but not the Lord during his lifetime.

 

[Catherineanne]

Do you go against the teachings of Jesus as per the Gospel of John?
Thst there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus who live according to The Spirit. That in fact those in Christ have already passed from death to Life?

I feel compelled only to defend this.
That God has given us of His Spirit. And the voice and spirit of God will never contradict His written Word and His Written Word will never contradict His Voice and Spirit

And I attest that Paul the one who on ignorance so profoundly tore down the body of Christ was the one used so powerfully to build up the body of Christ and Paul was, used so powerfully by Christs Spirit so powerfully at work in him to glorify his Lord!

The Holy Trinity does not comprise God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Scriptures. Moslems regard the Koran as equal in authority to God; this is an Islamic belief, not a Christian one.

Meanwhile, the Word of God is Christ himself. Not a book, however wonderful a book it may be. The Bible does not interpret itself, and it is in the interpretation that errors are made, pretty much all the time. That is inevitable.

 

[W2L]

My claim is not that all are apostles, but that we all are to be held to the same high standard of living and devotion. Being an apostle has more of a focus on what to do specifically, but those who are gifted/called to do other things (which covers everybody) need to be just as holy and devoted. Interesting that you said an apostle needs a believing wife, if he is going to have a wife - given what Paul said in 1 Cor. 7:32-34 about marriage being a distraction, it only makes sense to marry another Christian. The spouse's devotion should help yours, and vice versa. Otherwise, you will get distracted with the concerns of this world.

Yes for an apostle who dedicates his life to ministry, surely he would need a Godly wife, or no wife at all. However the issue is whether marrying an unbeliever is a sin, which has been asserted here, that's my only concern in this. An unbeliever who respects your faith may not be as bad as you seem to suggest, and they may even convert themselves. Is it really a sin?

 

[W2L]

The Holy Trinity does not comprise God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Scriptures. Moslems regard the Koran as equal in authority to God; this is an Islamic belief, not a Christian one.

Meanwhile, the Word of God is Christ himself. Not a book, however wonderful a book it may be. The Bible does not interpret itself, and it is in the interpretation that errors are made, pretty much all the time. That is inevitable.

Everything we know of Christ is in scripture, The Lord said that whoever loves him keeps his words, and whoever does not love him does not keep them. Obviously the bible is like a fathers commands o his children, so to say its not part of God seems wrong somehow. Its like saying I love you on the outside but not on the inside. Gods words come from his heart. Its really our gate into his heart, in my opinion. Sure the spirit is there as well, but without Scripture we wouldn't know the spirit would we? In john 14 Jesus says whoever keeps his words will receive the spirit, and the spirit will teach us all things and remind us of all things that he spoke. THe scripture we are debating in this thread says that God commands us not to touch the unclean thing, and he will receive us as sons and daughters. The scriptures teach us what is clean and unclean. It seems that the scriptures are the spirit of truth just as the spirit himself also is. Logos (Word) is more than spirit but its what the spirit teaches, its Gods wisdom. At least thats my understanding of logos anyway. That's why we call him the Word, logos, I believe.

To say Christ is not his word just doesn't make sense to me and I cannot comprehend such a thing. Its like saying I am not my word.

 

[Catherineanne]

Everything we know of Christ is in scripture, The Lord said that whoever loves him keeps his words, and whoever does not love him does not keep them. Obviously the bible is like a fathers commands o his children, so to say its not part of God seems wrong somehow. Its like saying I love you on the outside but not on the inside. Gods words come from his heart. Its really our gate into his heart, in my opinion. Sure the spirit is there as well, but without Scripture we wouldn't know the spirit would we? In john 14 Jesus says whoever keeps his words will receive the spirit, and the spirit will teach us all things and remind us of all things that he spoke. THe scripture we are debating in this thread says that God commands us not to touch the unclean thing, and he will receive us as sons and daughters. The scriptures teach us what is clean and unclean. It seems that the scriptures are the spirit of truth just as the spirit himself also is. Logos (Word) is more than spirit but its what the spirit teaches, its Gods wisdom. At least thats my understanding of logos anyway. That's why we call him the Word, logos, I believe.

To say Christ is not his word just doesn't make sense to me and I cannot comprehend such a thing. Its like saying I am not my word.

I understand. Many churches teach that Christ and his word are one and the same, but they are not; that is, as I already said, Islamic thinking. It is how Moslems regard the Koran but it has never been the way Christians (or Jews, for that matter) regard the Scriptures. God is not a book.

Think of it this way; the Bible is to God what the A-Z guide is to London. It can direct us, and tell us something about our destination, but if we only read the book we do not experience what it is to actually be there; to have an actual encounter that is real and meaningful. It is exactly the same; you have to be there.

We can either read the Bible and think that is all that there is, or we can use it as it is intended to be used, to direct us to a living encounter with a living God. When we have that living encounter we can still read the Bible to get to know more about him, just as we can use the A-Z to find those hidden alleyways and parks, but what matters is not what we read on the page. What matters is the living encounter we have each day with the Holy Spirit, and through him with Christ.

If we focus too closely on one small part of Scripture it is like going to London and spending all day staring at one lamp-post or paving stone. It may well be true, as a small part of London, but if we think that is all that there is we hugely miss the point. Our faith is complex, beautiful and beyond any of us to comprehend, but ultimately if we do want to summarise it, then that summary is found in the death of the Lord on the cross for each one of us. The summary is not in prejudice or condemnation; it is in forgiveness for each one of us, long before we asked for it. Love, freely offered, waiting to welcome us home; ours simply for turning our faces towards that cross.

If anyone presents a gospel other than this love freely offered and waiting to welcome us home they are simply staring at a paving stone. If anyone goes to a church and they bang on week after week about one single issue, unless it is the death and resurrection of the Lord it is very likely to be a distortion of the gospel. In effect they have lifted up that paving stone onto a pedestal, plated it with gold and bowed down to it. We see this constantly, even in this place, where the prayer threads are full of tumbleweed, and people pile into threads on hot topics. That is not what our faith tells us to do.

It is important to see the Scriptures as a whole, not as a brick here, the branch of a tree there, a discarded crisp packet in another place. God is far bigger than that.

 

[Catherineanne]

Its better to have one parent who fishes rather than to have none who fish. At least the kids have one parent who knows how to fish.

That is a good way of looking at it.

 

[Catherineanne]

Irrelevant. Two believers committing the sin of divorce does not excuse another believer from the sin of marrying outside the faith.

Divorce is not a sin. Remarriage may or may not be, but divorce is not and marrying outside the faith is not.

Honestly, I don't know how anyone can look at the life and ministry of Christ, let alone remember the very many sins they have personally been forgiven, and still stick to this legalistic way of thinking.

 

[W2L]

I understand. Many churches teach that Christ and his word are one and the same, but they are not; that is, as I already said, Islamic thinking. It is how Moslems regard the Koran but it has never been the way Christians (or Jews, for that matter) regard the Scriptures. God is not a book.

Think of it this way; the Bible is to God what the A-Z guide is to London. It can direct us, and tell us something about our destination, but if we only read the book we do not experience what it is to actually be there; to have an actual encounter that is real and meaningful. It is exactly the same; you have to be there.

We can either read the Bible and think that is all that there is, or we can use it as it is intended to be used, to direct us to a living encounter with a living God. When we have that living encounter we can still read the Bible to get to know more about him, just as we can use the A-Z to find those hidden alleyways and parks, but what matters is not what we read on the page. What matters is the living encounter we have each day with the Holy Spirit, and through him with Christ.

If we focus too closely on one small part of Scripture it is like going to London and spending all day staring at one lamp-post or paving stone. It may well be true, as a small part of London, but if we think that is all that there is we hugely miss the point. Our faith is complex, beautiful and beyond any of us to comprehend, but ultimately if we do want to summarise it, then that summary is found in the death of the Lord on the cross for each one of us. The summary is not in prejudice or condemnation; it is in forgiveness for each one of us, long before we asked for it. Love, freely offered, waiting to welcome us home; ours simply for turning our faces towards that cross.

If anyone presents a gospel other than this love freely offered and waiting to welcome us home they are simply staring at a paving stone. If anyone goes to a church and they bang on week after week about one single issue, unless it is the death and resurrection of the Lord it is very likely to be a distortion of the gospel. In effect they have lifted up that paving stone onto a pedestal, plated it with gold and bowed down to it. We see this constantly, even in this place, where the prayer threads are full of tumbleweed, and people pile into threads on hot topics. That is not what our faith tells us to do.

It is important to see the Scriptures as a whole, not as a brick here, the branch of a tree there, a discarded crisp packet in another place. God is far bigger than that.

God is not paper, no, and I would surely agree with that. God is also not an English translation, nor is he a corrupted text. He is his word though, isn't he? The bible says that we are whatever we think (proverbs I think). Isn't that true of God as well? The bible says we will be justified by our words. Why is that if our word is not who we are?

 

[Catherineanne]

God is not paper, no, and I would surely agree with that. God is also not an English translation, nor is he a corrupted text. He is his word though, isn't he? The bible says that we are however we think. Isn't that true of God as well? The bible says we will be justified by our words? Why is that if our word is not who we are?

Certainly if we give our word we ought to keep to it; Christ tells us this when he says, 'Let your yes be yes and your no be no.'

But that does not mean that I am the moral and legal equivalent of my diary. Not a bit of it.

God is not contained in Scripture; he cannot be contained, any more than London can. God may have inspired Scripture, but he did not write it; fallible men wrote it, and sometimes they got it wrong. Plain and simple, wrong.

For example, if we read in our A-Z guide that a particular road is in a particular place, but then we get to London and find it is not there; perhaps a theatre has been built there instead, which would we believe? The book or our own personal experience, being there? Perhaps that road was once there, but is no longer; do I then have to insist it is a road, not a theatre? That is the position of many Christians today; insisting a road exists because once it did, and ignoring all the evidence that it is now a theatre.

God does not change, but our understanding of him does, and we can never overestimate his love for us. If there is any insufficiency, it is in our understanding of the depth of this love.

That is what the Bible is like. It is our A-Z guide; indispensable if you want to get to the right place, but having got to the right place we can trust what we find.

 

[W2L]

That is a good way of looking at it.

I don't know if its the best way of looking at it, but its a valid point, and its good to consider.

 

[Catherineanne]

I don't know if its the best way of looking at it, but its a valid point, and its good to consider.

It is a very valid point, and leading from it there is no reason why the wife will not learn to fish herself. I think myself there is a very good chance indeed.

 

[W2L]

Certainly if we give our word we ought to keep to it; Christ tells us this when he says, 'Let your yes be yes and your no be no.'

But that does not mean that I am the moral and legal equivalent of my diary. Not a bit of it.

God is not contained in Scripture; he cannot be contained, any more than London can. God may have inspired Scripture, but he did not write it; fallible men wrote it, and sometimes they got it wrong. Plain and simple, wrong.

For example, if we read in our A-Z guide that a particular road is in a particular place, but then we get to London and find it is not there; perhaps a theatre has been built there instead, which would we believe? The book or our own personal experience, being there?

That is what the Bible is like. It is our A-Z guide; indispensable if you want to get to the right place, but having got to the right place we can trust what we find.

I was just looking up that proverbs scripture, there is bitt of a discrepancy between the NIV and NKJV, so i'll withdraw that scripture from my argument for now. However, I think we would agree that how we think in our heart defines who we are. Either way though, putting all scripture aside, this opinion of mine really isn't based solely on scripture but just seems logical to me by itself, without scripture. Lets assume I always tell the truth, like God does. How are my words not part of me? Surely its not the essence of me, and I am a spirit as well, but those words are a reflection of my heart which is part of me. I'm just not able to comprehend how His word is not part of who God is. Its part of Gods own mind isn't it? Surely its only a part of him and not all of him, and he cannot be contained in a book I agree but his word must be part of him. Also, I hope you agree that God never goes against is word, so if we ever think we know something about God which contradicts his word, then we either are misunderstanding God or his word. Correct?

 

[Catherineanne]

I was just looking up that proverbs scripture, there is bitt of a discrepancy between the NIV and NKJV, so i'll withdraw that scripture from my argument for now. However, I think we would agree that how we think in our heart defines who we are. Either way though, putting all scripture aside, this opinion of mine really isn't based solely on scripture but just seems logical to me by itself, without scripture. Lets assume I always tell the truth, like God does. How are my words not part of me? Surely its not the essence of me, and I am a spirit as well, but those words are a reflection of my heart which is part of me. I'm just not able to comprehend how His word is not part of who God is. Its part of Gods own mind isn't it? Surely its only a part of him and not all of him, and he cannot be contained in a book I agree but his word must be part of him. Also, I hope you agree that God never goes against is word, so if we ever think we know something about God which contradicts his word, then we either are misunderstanding God or his word. Correct?

In Christian terms logic is not sufficient, let alone what seems logical to any one of us. What matters is this; where does the Bible say that it is equal in status and authority with God?

Answer: nowhere.

And does the Bible warn AGAINST following the word of Scripture while forgetting the heart? Yep, all the time. It says that this kind of behaviour takes us backwards.

http://biblehub.com/isaiah/28-13.htm

Who does the Bible say is in authority? God himself; Father, Son and Holy Spirit; nobody else. First commandment; thou shalt have no other God besides me.

Therefore, 'Bible believing' which makes the Bible equal to God is not authorised in Scripture. Worse than that, it is in actual fact forbidden.

QED.

 

[W2L]

In Christian terms logic is not sufficient, let alone what seems logical to any one of us. What matters is this; where does the Bible say that it is equal in status and authority with God?

Answer: nowhere.

And does the Bible warn AGAINST following the word of Scripture while forgetting the heart? Yep, all the time. It says that this kind of behaviour takes us backwards.

http://biblehub.com/isaiah/28-13.htm

Who does the Bible say is in authority? God himself; Father, Son and Holy Spirit; nobody else. First commandment; thou shalt have no other God besides me.

Therefore, 'Bible believing' which makes the Bible equal to God is not authorised in Scripture. Worse than that, it is in actual fact forbidden.

QED.

I really don't understand peoples objection to seeing Gods words as part of him. I cannot comprehend that logic, and logic is not evil, not if its directed by Gods wisdom. God is not illogical, not to the spiritual man anyway. The spiritual man knows God has good reason for what he does, even if he doesn't understand Gods reason. The scriptures are part of Gods authority that he has given us. Its his will that we submit to that authority. We see this in the OT and the NT. Why would God tell us to submit to something that is not part of him? Why else is Christ called the Word (logos)? What does that word "logos" mean exactly? Doesn't it refer to logical reasoning and discourse? It refers to the saying of God as well as his spirit, unless I'm mistaken. LOgos is a form of logon, I think if I have that right. Logon literally means word. Strong's defines Logos as:

logos: a word (as embodying an idea), a statement, a speech
Original Word: λόγος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: logos
Phonetic Spelling: (log'-os)
Short Definition: a word, speech, divine utterance, analogy
Definition: a word, speech, divine utterance, analogy


Also we have this scripture which may also answer your question.


Psalm 138:2 (YLT)
2 I bow myself toward Thy holy temple, And I confess Thy name, For Thy kindness, and for Thy truth, For Thou hast made great Thy saying above all Thy name.

Psalm 138:2New (NIV) 2
I will bow down toward your holy temple
and will praise your name
for your unfailing love and your faithfulness,
for you have so exalted your solemn decree
that it surpasses your fame.

 

[W2L]

Also, I surely never failed to refer to the heart but did preciously mention it. WE must put the word in our heart, and let it transform our thinking. Its all about the heart and not outward show. Its also about worshipping in spirit and truth which has much to do with the heart. God writes his law on the heart but this doesn't mean his scripture isn't part of that. I believe it simply means that God uses his spirit to talk to our heart through his scripture and his spirit. No more do we need a prophet to teach us because God will correct us himself through his spirit. We need no moses to correct us, we have the spirit. That's the way I understand it anyway.

 

[Catherineanne]

I really don't understand peoples objection to seeing Gods words as part of him. I cannot comprehend that logic, and logic is not evil, not if its directed by Gods wisdom. God is not illogical, not to the spiritual man anyway. The spiritual man knows God has good reason for what he does, even if he doesn't understand Gods reason. The scriptures are part of Gods authority that he has given us. Its his will that we submit to that authority. We see this in the OT and the NT. Why would God tell us to submit to something that is not part of him? Why else is Christ called the Word (logos)? What does that word "logos" mean exactly? Doesn't it refer to logical reasoning and discourse? It refers to the saying of God as well as his spirit, unless I'm mistaken. LOgos is a form of logon, I think if I have that right. Logon literally means word. Strong's defines Logos as:

logos: a word (as embodying an idea), a statement, a speech
Original Word: λόγος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: logos
Phonetic Spelling: (log'-os)
Short Definition: a word, speech, divine utterance, analogy
Definition: a word, speech, divine utterance, analogy

The Logos of God is Christ himself. He is the Word of God, not a book.

Also we have this scripture which may also answer your question.


Psalm 138:2 (YLT)
2 I bow myself toward Thy holy temple, And I confess Thy name, For Thy kindness, and for Thy truth, For Thou hast made great Thy saying above all Thy name.

Psalm 138:2New (NIV) 2
I will bow down toward your holy temple
and will praise your name
for your unfailing love and your faithfulness,
for you have so exalted your solemn decree
that it surpasses your fame.

None of that says the Bible or any Scripture is equal in authority to God. As stated above the Word of God is Christ.

John 1:1

Here it is again; the Holy Trinity does NOT comprise God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Scriptures. Elevating the Scriptures to equality with God is unScriptural and is forbidden by the first commandment. It is Islamic behaviour, rather than Christian, and it is Bibliolatry.

Putting it another way God does not answer to Scripture. His authority is absolute, and not constrained by anyone or anything other than his own self.

We seem to have gone a long way off track. The relevance of this is that when Christians bring along selected verses to use as weapons against other people, to condemn them or make them feel spiritually inferior, then Scripture is being misused.

 

[2 know him]

My point is those born of The Holy Spirit through faith in The Savior who ALONE is Lord can discern the Spirit of Truth in all things.

And there was nothing off in Paul. He too had been born of Christs life giving Spirit

You say that there is/was nothing off in Paul, so why have you failed to address the contradictions I have pointed out in Paul's writings especially Romans 13:4? Go back and quote the posts I have made which claim Paul has contradicted Jesus and address how Paul's words do not contradict Jesus's words.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

It depends on how you value God's Word.

Yes, and how much you value God Himself.