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Married Monastic Communities

All4Christ

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I recently heard about a practice of the Orthodox Church with elderly married couples. I have a few questions about it.

1. Marriage is for our salvation, yet the Church allows elderly couples to separate for the sake of pursuing monasticism. Why does the Church allow that?

2. I always liked the idea of the Catholic order for married couples to live a life dedicated to God in a community, while not separating to pursue that. I forget the name of the order...I heard about it a long time ago. I've always heard that the Orthodox don't have that. Then, I recently found this Orthodox Monastic community - http://www.newskete.com/married_monasticism.htm. Is this a legit community?
 

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It's a legit community, but it's a bit experimental and the only one of its kind. The married people there are not "real" monastics and the experiment is not likely to be tried elsewhere. But it is an interesting idea. There is some criticism of New Skete, but those are really directed at things other than the married people associated with the place.
 
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All4Christ

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It's a legit community, but it's a bit experimental and the only one of its kind. The married people there are not "real" monastics and the experiment is not likely to be tried elsewhere. But it is an interesting idea. There is some criticism of New Skete, but those are really directed at things other than the married people associated with the place.
It is an interesting idea. To me, it seems like something worth considering to get back to the communities centered around the Church. For example, there were communities in Alaska that had families living around the Church, with the Church at the center of the community. It seems like an admirable thing for a couple to devote themselves to have a vocation of living a monastic life, even if it isn't "really" monasticism.
 
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ArmyMatt

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1. Marriage is for our salvation, yet the Church allows elderly couples to separate for the sake of pursuing monasticism. Why does the Church allow that?

it's a unique calling, for their salvation.

2. I always liked the idea of the Catholic order for married couples to live a life dedicated to God in a community, while not separating to pursue that. I forget the name of the order...I heard about it a long time ago. I've always heard that the Orthodox don't have that. Then, I recently found this Orthodox Monastic community - http://www.newskete.com/married_monasticism.htm. Is this a legit community?

yeah, they are legit. odd, but legit.
 
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~Anastasia~

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I have to admit, what little I know of it does seem like there are admirable aspects. But I don't know much.

The irony of New Skete for me is that, while I only heard of Orthodoxy a couple of years ago, I've known of New Skete most of my life. I've read all of their books on dogs, and some about the community in that context. However ... nothing ever detailed much about the faith. I suppose I assumed they were a Catholic order.

Then again, I can't regret. I am sure God knew my path, and I did make it into the Church. Eventually. Very eventually, lol.
 
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~Anastasia~

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They were Eastern Rite Franciscans who converted, but they've been Orthodox since the 70s.

Interesting. They probably were Catholic then when I started following them. But I guess I missed the conversion ...
 
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I recently heard about a practice of the Orthodox Church with elderly married couples. I have a few questions about it.

1. Marriage is for our salvation, yet the Church allows elderly couples to separate for the sake of pursuing monasticism. Why does the Church allow that?

Hmm, I dont know is there any canons for this? From all my years these are situations Ive heard about second hand or mentioned in a canon, or know about personally:

1.A young (russian) couple seperated both becoming monastics. I dont know their circumstances though, perhaps they were not getting along or they were living as if brother and sister. Or simply both came from religious families who pressured them to marry instead of their first desires to enter monasteries.

2. Canon allows for husband to seperate from wife, if wife is willing to enter a monastery so husband can be elevated to bishop. They must not have any dependant children, and if wife embraces the monastic life while residing in the monastery she has elgibility to being ordained deaconess.

3. This case is the reverse of what your asking. Know an unmarried woman who goes on many pilgrimages throughout the world. Very pious, but does not want to join any of the countless convents she visited. One problem is she struggles with carnality, has a potty mouth and can be contentious in theological debates. But she once visited a monastery in Bulgaria where she felt this was the place to become a nun. She asked permission from the abess to become a novice and not return to the states. . The abbess looking at her without knowing much about her and seeing her heart told her that her life is not in a monastery but in the world. That her destiny is to find a man to marry who is willing to live like married monastics. That if her carnality gets the best of her she breaks no vows as she has a husband.

So sorry probably doesnt answer your question.
 
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~Anastasia~

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3. This case is the reverse of what your asking. Know an unmarried woman who goes on many pilgrimages throughout the world. Very pious, but does not want to join any of the countless convents she visited. One problem is she struggles with carnality, has a potty mouth and can be contentious in theological debates. But she once visited a monastery in Bulgaria where she felt this was the place to become a nun. She asked permission from the abess to become a novice and not return to the states. . The abbess looking at her without knowing much about her and seeing her heart told her that her life is not in a monastery but in the world. That her destiny is to find a man to marry who is willing to live like married monastics. That if her carnality gets the best of her she breaks no vows as she has a husband.

That's very interesting.

I can't imagine seeking a spouse under such conditions, but it is very interesting, the idea of protecting the woman from her own weaknesses.
 
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All4Christ

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it's a unique calling, for their salvation.
Ok...that doesn't really give the logic behind it. Everything the church does is designed to support our salvation.

That said, I have never heard the reasoning behind it. The Church allows two married individuals to separate for the purpose of monasticism, yet we believe the marriage is eternal. We also believe marriage is a calling and vocation from God. I don't understand the reasoning behind the practice. I could see the reasoning behind an elderly married couple agreeing to be celibate for the remainder of their life in order to focus on God though. I am thinking about 1 Corinthians 7:10.

Also, why do you consider it to be odd to have a couple setting themselves apart from life to follow a monastic style of life? Perhaps it wouldn't follow the strict definition of monasticism. That said, to me, it seems like a beautiful way to encourage each other in working out your salvation together as a couple.
 
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All4Christ

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Hmm, I dont know is there any canons for this? From all my years these are situations Ive heard about second hand or mentioned in a canon, or know about personally:

1.A young (russian) couple seperated both becoming monastics. I dont know their circumstances though, perhaps they were not getting along or they were living as if brother and sister. Or simply both came from religious families who pressured them to marry instead of their first desires to enter monasteries.

2. Canon allows for husband to seperate from wife, if wife is willing to enter a monastery so husband can be elevated to bishop. They must not have any dependant children, and if wife embraces the monastic life while residing in the monastery she has elgibility to being ordained deaconess.

3. This case is the reverse of what your asking. Know an unmarried woman who goes on many pilgrimages throughout the world. Very pious, but does not want to join any of the countless convents she visited. One problem is she struggles with carnality, has a potty mouth and can be contentious in theological debates. But she once visited a monastery in Bulgaria where she felt this was the place to become a nun. She asked permission from the abess to become a novice and not return to the states. . The abbess looking at her without knowing much about her and seeing her heart told her that her life is not in a monastery but in the world. That her destiny is to find a man to marry who is willing to live like married monastics. That if her carnality gets the best of her she breaks no vows as she has a husband.

So sorry probably doesnt answer your question.
It does give me some perspective though on the situations in which this may happen, so that helps some. I had heard of the second scenario, but hadn't heard of either of the other two. Thanks!
 
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~Anastasia~

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Ok...that doesn't really give the logic behind it. Everything the church does is designed to support our salvation.

That said, I have never heard the reasoning behind it. The Church allows two married individuals to separate for the purpose of monasticism, yet we believe the marriage is eternal. We also believe marriage is a calling and vocation from God. I don't understand the reasoning behind the practice. I could see the reasoning behind an elderly married couple agreeing to be celibate for the remainder of their life in order to focus on God though. I am thinking about 1 Corinthians 7:10.

Also, why do you consider it to be odd to have a couple setting themselves apart from life to follow a monastic style of life? Perhaps it wouldn't follow the strict definition of monasticism. That said, to me, it seems like a beautiful way to encourage each other in working out your salvation together as a couple.

I know a married couple who at least use many of the tools of monasticism, serve in Church together, visit monasteries together (a lot!) and are pretty much the go-to for any of us who have questions about monastic life. It never occurred to me to wonder how closely they follow such in a personal sense (and it doesn't matter to me), but their marriage is quite beautiful and can provoke others to envy in a good sense. :)
 
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ArmyMatt

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Ok...that doesn't really give the logic behind it. Everything the church does is designed to support our salvation.

certain couples, when they both agree, feel the call to finish their life in monasticism. they were married for their salvation during a time in their life, and as they aged, God gave them another calling.

Also, why do you consider it to be odd to have a couple setting themselves apart from life to follow a monastic style of life?

because monastic means to be alone. they chose celibacy.
 
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All4Christ

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certain couples, when they both agree, feel the call to finish their life in monasticism. they were married for their salvation during a time in their life, and as they aged, God gave them another calling.



because monastic means to be alone. they chose celibacy.
Perhaps monastic is the wrong word. A life dedicated to pursuing God over all other earthly vocations? Yet pursuing that dedication as a couple? With a community of like-minded couples around them? I would imagine it would happen similarly to what Kylissa mentioned, only perhaps in a community dedicated to that.

That said, some monastics do practice their monasticism in groups. If a couple were to reman celibate, then it seems like a sort of monasticism could be pursued. That said, I'm not going to suggest the Church change their Traditions on monasticism. I know there are reasons for separating the women from men.
 
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ArmyMatt

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A life dedicated to pursuing God over all other earthly vocations? Yet pursuing that dedication as a couple?

not to be funny, but that's marriage.

With a community of like-minded couples around them? I would imagine it would happen similarly to what Kylissa mentioned, only perhaps in a community dedicated to that.

again, not to be funny, but that's called Church.

That said, some monastics do practice their monasticism in groups. If a couple were to reman celibate, then it seems like a sort of monasticism could be pursued. That said, I'm not going to suggest the Church change their Traditions on monasticism. I know there are reasons for separating the women from men.

and if that happens, glory to God. New Skete has more weirdness to it than just the companions skete.

and seriously, please don't take my first comments as me trying to be a smart alec
 
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All4Christ

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not to be funny, but that's marriage.



again, not to be funny, but that's called Church.



and if that happens, glory to God. New Skete has more weirdness to it than just the companions skete.

and seriously, please don't take my first comments as me trying to be a smart alec
I'm not taking it as being a smart alec, so to speak, but I don't think you see what I am saying either, particularly with the part about the Church. Or maybe you do. Perhaps what I'm envisioning just isn't in the cards for elderly married folk who want to pursue God together as a couple, even once they are older and no longer caring for a family.

And yes, I do see that my wording also describes what you said appropriately.
 
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I recently heard about a practice of the Orthodox Church with elderly married couples. I have a few questions about it.

1. Marriage is for our salvation, yet the Church allows elderly couples to separate for the sake of pursuing monasticism. Why does the Church allow that?

2. I always liked the idea of the Catholic order for married couples to live a life dedicated to God in a community, while not separating to pursue that. I forget the name of the order...I heard about it a long time ago. I've always heard that the Orthodox don't have that. Then, I recently found this Orthodox Monastic community - http://www.newskete.com/married_monasticism.htm. Is this a legit community?
Interesting - I think it's amazing that they are doing what they are doing. And interestingly enough, it's not something they are alone in.

One can be a monk in various ways without necessarily living in a monastery - I've known others who used to be monks in Orthodox monasteries for a significant amount of time before choosing to leave and later become married. They never forgot their experiences nor did the impact of it become forgotten - for when it comes to the spirituality of the monks. it is a living expression that is not limited to one place.

What's interesting to consider is that within Celtic culture, there were many cases where the monks were married. That may be shocking to others - but it should always be kept in mind that Celtic monasticism was radically different than what occurred within the Roman Empire. For much of Ireland was influenced by the monks of the Eastern desert, particularly the writings of John Cassian. When this form or expression of the faith returned to Ireland, it blended in with other local cultural understandings and ways of doing things, just as it has whereever it is taken. Additionally, the Celtic notion of "monastery" was worlds different than the typical medieval monastery which existed in Europe. It was a village model, rather than one where there were huge buildings of stone - and due to the makeup of the orders being more extensive (as they went beyond the model of Bishop, priest and deacon), there was room for more categories. Because the entire village was essentially a "monastery" for the Irish, it was a community endeavor - and as another noted best, "It was precisely because the monastic communities were like loving families that they had such a long-lasting and complete influence on the Irish people as a whole. ..These schools were the seedbeds of saints and scholars: literally thousands of young men and women received their formation in these communities. Some of them would stay and enter fully into monastic life, while others would return to their homes, marry, and raise their children in accordance with the profound Christian way of life that they had assimilated in the monastery" - the Irish Orthodox Church is rather fascinating when seeing its history.

But with that said, the asceticism that is developed within the monastery life is something that married men and married women both can walk in - with monasticism being walked out in that sense while also walking out their marriage. As, "those who live in the world, even though married, ought to resemble the monks in everything else." In the Desert (as it concerns the Desert Fathers and Mothers), the life of renunciation and simplicity was the message for all Christians, whether married and caring for families or single. And St. John of Chrysostom did note once that “When Christ orders us to follow the narrow path, he addresses himself to all...the monastic and the lay person must attain the same heights...those who live in the world, even though married, ought to resemble the monks in everything else."

For a good review:




As said there (from a brief excerpt):


1) We need to distinguish asceticism from monasticism. Many converts, awash in the wonderful spiritual literature of the Orthodox tradition, like thePhilokalia, the Ladder of Divine Ascent or Unseen Warfare, receive the impression that only monastics are called to be ascetics. Nothing could be further from the truth. All Christians are called to the ascetic life. In Matthew 16, Jesus gives us the fundamental law of Christian discipleship: "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it"(Mt.16:24-25). The essence of the ascetic life is precisely denying oneself for Christ's sake and taking up one's cross to follow Him. There is no other way to follow Christ; it is ascetic through and through and all Christians, monastic, clergy and laity have the same path.

To show the universal nature of Orthodox ascesis and its intimate union with noetic prayer, let us look at the ringing declaration of St. Simeon of Thessalonica about praying with the Name of Jesus Christ (Little Russian Philokalia, Vol.4, p.146):

Let every pious man continually repeat this Name as a Prayer in his mind and with his tongue. Let him always constrain himself to do this while standing, traveling, sitting, resting, speaking, and doing all things. Then he shall find great peace and joy, as those who have occupied themselves with it know from experience. This activity is both for those in worldly life and for those monks who are in the midst of turmoil. Each one must strive to occupy himself with this Prayer, even if to a limited extent only. All, clergy, monks and laymen, must have this Prayer as a guide, practicing it according to their ability.

The monks are dedicated, and have an indispensable obligation to do this...The clergy must be diligent in this Prayer as though it were apostolic work and Divine preaching ...Let those who are in the world work at this as a sealing of themselves, a sign of their faith, a protector, sanctification, and expeller of every temptation...let everyone devote time, according to his ability, and have a certain amount of this Prayer as an obligation.(Italics added).

Following this, it does not seem necessary to cite the multitude of possible patristic sources which would confirm our point in order to conclude that the Christian way of ascesis, the way of the cross, is not automatically monasticism, which is but one of its forms, though the preeminent one. Ascesis is required of all Orthodox Christians.

2) We need also to distinguish between the institution of monasticism and the 'monastic ideal'. According to St. Theophan the Recluse, the institution of monasticism consists of the monastic ranks (novice, ryassaphore, full tonsure, great Schema), the monastic rule (the major points of which are fasting, obedience, prayer) and the monastic forms (cenobitic, eremetic, sketic). This is the 'external image' of monasticism. But the 'internal image' of monasticism, its essence, according to St. Theophan, is "a perpetual labor of conquering passions and uprooting them in order that one may preserve oneself before the face of God in a pure and immaculate state". Clearly single and married non-monastics do not live according to monasticism's external order, but who would dare to say that non-monastic Christians do not also have the responsibility to labor perpetually to conquer passions in order to preserve themselves before God in a pure and immaculate state? As Theophan himself says, "There are lay women in light-colored dresses who are nuns in spirit and there are monastics in black mantles who are laywomen at heart" (Kindling the Divine Spark). From this perspective, lay people, according to St. Theophan the Recluse, need not feel themselves excluded from any spiritual possibility simply on the basis of their life amid the cares of the world.
 
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All4Christ

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Thank you for this...I really do appreciate reading it and learning about it. This is something that for some reason has been on my mind a lot lately - and this helps. I will read those links now and become more familiar with the Church tradition of incorporating that into our lives today.

As a side note - a village dedicated to a monastic style of life, though perhaps not monastics in the traditional sense (like in the early Celtic church and also in some communities in Alaska, etc) is pretty much exactly what I'm referring to. That said, I'm going to read some of these about incorporating it into our lives wherever we are.

Thank you again!

Interesting - I think it's amazing that they are doing what they are doing. And interestingly enough, it's not something they are alone in.

One can be a monk in various ways without necessarily living in a monastery - I've known others who used to be monks in Orthodox monasteries for a significant amount of time before choosing to leave and later become married. They never forgot their experiences nor did the impact of it become forgotten - for when it comes to the spirituality of the monks. it is a living expression that is not limited to one place.

What's interesting to consider is that within Celtic culture, there were many cases where the monks were married. That may be shocking to others - but it should always be kept in mind that Celtic monasticism was radically different than what occurred within the Roman Empire. For much of Ireland was influenced by the monks of the Eastern desert, particularly the writings of John Cassian. When this form or expression of the faith returned to Ireland, it blended in with other local cultural understandings and ways of doing things, just as it has whereever it is taken. Additionally, the Celtic notion of "monastery" was worlds different than the typical medieval monastery which existed in Europe. It was a village model, rather than one where there were huge buildings of stone - and due to the makeup of the orders being more extensive (as they went beyond the model of Bishop, priest and deacon), there was room for more categories. Because the entire village was essentially a "monastery" for the Irish, it was a community endeavor - and as another noted best, "It was precisely because the monastic communities were like loving families that they had such a long-lasting and complete influence on the Irish people as a whole. ..These schools were the seedbeds of saints and scholars: literally thousands of young men and women received their formation in these communities. Some of them would stay and enter fully into monastic life, while others would return to their homes, marry, and raise their children in accordance with the profound Christian way of life that they had assimilated in the monastery" - the Irish Orthodox Church is rather fascinating when seeing its history.

But with that said, the asceticism that is developed within the monastery life is something that married men and married women both can walk in - with monasticism being walked out in that sense while also walking out their marriage. As, "those who live in the world, even though married, ought to resemble the monks in everything else." In the Desert (as it concerns the Desert Fathers and Mothers), the life of renunciation and simplicity was the message for all Christians, whether married and caring for families or single. And St. John of Chrysostom did note once that “When Christ orders us to follow the narrow path, he addresses himself to all...the monastic and the lay person must attain the same heights...those who live in the world, even though married, ought to resemble the monks in everything else."

For a good review:




As said there (from a brief excerpt):

1) We need to distinguish asceticism from monasticism. Many converts, awash in the wonderful spiritual literature of the Orthodox tradition, like thePhilokalia, the Ladder of Divine Ascent or Unseen Warfare, receive the impression that only monastics are called to be ascetics. Nothing could be further from the truth. All Christians are called to the ascetic life. In Matthew 16, Jesus gives us the fundamental law of Christian discipleship: "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it"(Mt.16:24-25). The essence of the ascetic life is precisely denying oneself for Christ's sake and taking up one's cross to follow Him. There is no other way to follow Christ; it is ascetic through and through and all Christians, monastic, clergy and laity have the same path.

To show the universal nature of Orthodox ascesis and its intimate union with noetic prayer, let us look at the ringing declaration of St. Simeon of Thessalonica about praying with the Name of Jesus Christ (Little Russian Philokalia, Vol.4, p.146):

Let every pious man continually repeat this Name as a Prayer in his mind and with his tongue. Let him always constrain himself to do this while standing, traveling, sitting, resting, speaking, and doing all things. Then he shall find great peace and joy, as those who have occupied themselves with it know from experience. This activity is both for those in worldly life and for those monks who are in the midst of turmoil. Each one must strive to occupy himself with this Prayer, even if to a limited extent only. All, clergy, monks and laymen, must have this Prayer as a guide, practicing it according to their ability.

The monks are dedicated, and have an indispensable obligation to do this...The clergy must be diligent in this Prayer as though it were apostolic work and Divine preaching ...Let those who are in the world work at this as a sealing of themselves, a sign of their faith, a protector, sanctification, and expeller of every temptation...let everyone devote time, according to his ability, and have a certain amount of this Prayer as an obligation.(Italics added).

Following this, it does not seem necessary to cite the multitude of possible patristic sources which would confirm our point in order to conclude that the Christian way of ascesis, the way of the cross, is not automatically monasticism, which is but one of its forms, though the preeminent one. Ascesis is required of all Orthodox Christians.

2) We need also to distinguish between the institution of monasticism and the 'monastic ideal'. According to St. Theophan the Recluse, the institution of monasticism consists of the monastic ranks (novice, ryassaphore, full tonsure, great Schema), the monastic rule (the major points of which are fasting, obedience, prayer) and the monastic forms (cenobitic, eremetic, sketic). This is the 'external image' of monasticism. But the 'internal image' of monasticism, its essence, according to St. Theophan, is "a perpetual labor of conquering passions and uprooting them in order that one may preserve oneself before the face of God in a pure and immaculate state". Clearly single and married non-monastics do not live according to monasticism's external order, but who would dare to say that non-monastic Christians do not also have the responsibility to labor perpetually to conquer passions in order to preserve themselves before God in a pure and immaculate state? As Theophan himself says, "There are lay women in light-colored dresses who are nuns in spirit and there are monastics in black mantles who are laywomen at heart" (Kindling the Divine Spark). From this perspective, lay people, according to St. Theophan the Recluse, need not feel themselves excluded from any spiritual possibility simply on the basis of their life amid the cares of the world.
 
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