Marriage without state-issued license

[krae991]

Hi,

I'll try to make this as short as possible, but I am seriously looking for answers and opinions. My fiance and I have been living together for about 2.5 years (please don't go into this issue, because this isn't the issue I need help with). I have realized this wasn't the right way to go and probably made things harder on us, but it's a long story and it was the only way to economically make it work since my fiance had no money, job, or car at the time. I have since repented to God and we are currently not sleeping together until we are officially married by a pastor. The only issue is...my fiance doesn't agree with us signing a state license because he believes this is agreeing with the state that THEY are the ones who give permission to marry, not God. Also, the state (MN) is giving licenses to gay couples, so the validity of licenses is pretty null and void. Signing a contract is inviting a third-party into the relationship and they will pretty much do whatever they want with the couple and the fruits of their marriage (children) because you signed their contract. I believe most of what he believes, but I'm still on the fence about it. He will most likely never sign a state contract. We are both very committed to each other for life and already see ourselves as a married couple and have had many conversations about marriage and divorce (divorce only if there is adultery). This is in no way trying to make an "easy way out" of our relationship. We believe marriage is a covenant between two people and God, not a contract. We are having trouble finding Christian, Bible-believing pastors who agree with this or will marry us without a state-issued contract. I don't want our marriage looked on as a "fake" marriage if we sign a certificate from a pastor, not a license.

So...what I'm asking for is: opinions on whether people agree/disagree with state licenses and what is their Bible basis for believing this. Is it okay to invite a third party (the state) into your marriage? Personal cases of people not getting a license from the state, getting married using a covenant, and how they made the state view them as married so they get the same protection as other "legal" couples? Any resources would be welcome! Especially around the state of MN. We are willing to travel to another state if this is what it takes to get married and not sign a state license. I have found two pastors/officiants in MN who marry without a license, but our religious views do not match up. I'm assuming it would not be a good idea to have these pastors marry us, but it seems like they are the only option in this state.

 

[JackRT]

Traditionally in Christianity marriage is a covenant between two people. Not until the eleventh century did the church even require a formal church marriage. Today the church and/or the state witness the marriage and record it but it is the people who marry each other. In many jurisdictions a "common law marriage", such as yours, is actually recognized as a legal marriage after a certain period of time.

 

[krae991]

Traditionally in Christianity marriage is a covenant between two people. Not until the eleventh century did the church even require a formal church marriage. Today the church and/or the state witness the marriage and record it but it is the people who marry each other. In many jurisdictions a "common law marriage", such as yours, is actually recognized as a legal marriage after a certain period of time.

Right, I have researched common law marriage, which MN does not recognize. I don't agree that common law marriage couples are actually married because they never officially made a covenant before God.

 

[JackRT]

Right, I have researched common law marriage, which MN does not recognize. I don't agree that common law marriage couples are actually married because they never officially made a covenant before God.

My wife and I did. We formalized it 42 years ago, so we have been married 45 years now in the eyes of God but just 42 years in the eyes of the church/state.

 

[Kenny'sID]

We believe marriage is a covenant between two people and God, not a contract

A covenant is a contract.

I'm usually the first to say keep the states nose out of our business, but in the case of law, it is scriptural God has his hand on the laws of the land, and I personally see no problem with the law of the land on marriage.

Please don't take this the wrong way but you seem to be making getting married very tough, as you seem to have a problem with just about every option.

Are you sure you really want to get married?

 

[Waterwerx]

You're not "inviting the state" into your marriage, but instead, it is a necessary process in order to receive recognition not only from a Christian aspect, but also according to the law of the land, that you're a married couple.

Signing a contract is an agreement between you, your spouse, and the state, basically saying that you're a married couple. I don't see this having any effect on what the state can or cannot do with your children. Unwed couples having children happens frequently and the fact that they've never signed a contract hasn't ever prevented the states from stepping in if they felt the children were in danger or being neglected...

Just because the state is giving marriage licenses to gay couples, it should not mean all marriage licenses in general are invalid to Christians. You're not a gay couple, so I don't see why a gay couple getting a license should have any bearing on your decision.

Have you asked yourself if this is something you're both ready for? Are you both at a point in your life where you're ready to have a child? From what I've read, it sounds like neither of you have any connection to a Church or any kind of fellowship for support. I don't know how the present is going for you, but the brief history you mentioned leads me to believe neither of you are ready. Marriage is a contract between a man, woman, and God, but it is also a lot of work, and part of that work involves going through the motions of making yourselves a legally recognized couple.

Satan has a funny way of turning the tables on our reasoning. While we may think of them as legitimate excuses, they could also be used as a means to justify one into not doing that which would be otherwise right in the eyes of the Lord.

This is my opinion and just that. Now you both must be honest with yourself.

 

[krae991]

A covenant is a contract.

I'm usually the first to say keep the states nose out of our business, but in the case of law, it is scriptural God has his hand on the laws of the land, and I personally see no problem with the law of the land on marriage.

Please don't take this the wrong way but you seem to be making getting married very tough, as you seem to have a problem with just about every option.

Are you sure you really want to get married?

Thank you for your reply. And no, I'm not taking it the wrong way. I know it may seem like we ARE making this tougher than most people make it out to be, but we are both very wary of signing any contract, especially with the government and how corrupt it is nowadays. We 100% definitely want to be married and we are very devoted to each other and want to start a family together.

However, I have heard personal cases of people who get around the state-issued license and still are considered married by the government. I'm not sure how these people are doing this and still receive full benefits of licensed-married couples.

We do not want to risk our marriage or future children if we sign the license. We believe that by signing the license, we also invite the government to have a say in how our children are raised and the government may take them away from us if they see we are unfit parents (such as..."brainwashing" them with our Christian beliefs, or by not allowing them to take harmful hormone replacement drugs to stop puberty if they decide they are "transgender").

I know this may seem like we are going overboard to some people, but we want to know what we are getting into if we sign this license.

 

[Ron Gurley]

FIND a church that will allow formal service of exchange of wedding vows ....without any state strings.

 

[thecolorsblend]

So...what I'm asking for is: opinions on whether people agree/disagree with state licenses and what is their Bible basis for believing this.

With respect, I'm really not concerned about a "Bible basis" here. There are good reasons to have a license. Sacred scripture doesn't command me to wear a seatbelt. But wearing one is still a good policy.

Anyway, for one thing, people get divorced. Even Christians get divorced even though they should know better. There's always some ridiculous sob story about it too. Now, God forbid someone finds themselves in a divorce situation. But at least having the legal association of marriage will make an already terrible situation slightly less terrible. You have some kind of rights as a spouse. But if your marriage isn't recognized with a license, those rights might not be applied to you.

For two things, people die. And when they die, inheritance is a done-deal with a marriage license. But if the law genuinely isn't sure the deceased was married in a legal sense, inheritance could easily become a legal quagmire. We live in an age when Baby Boomer grandparents sue their Gen X and Millennial children for visitation rights to the grandchildren. It would be lovely to think family won't turn on each other. But let's be realistic here.

For three things, there's testimony. In my state, a wife cannot give testimony against her husband. Vice versa too. Can't. Cannot. It isn't that a spouse has the right to refuse to answer questions. They cannot give testimony. Period. They can't be compelled to give testimony and if they volunteer to give testimony, they have to be turned away. But do you really believe that will apply in a situation where there's no license? Maybe it will. But maybe it won't. Certainly there could be doubt as to whether the authorities have the right to compel answers from an unlicensed spouse. Doubt isn't ever a positive thing in this type of case.

I understand that a lot of Christians enjoy the virtue-signalling bravado like "Caesar can't tell me if I'm married or not". I get that. And good on them, far be it from me to judge others for their goofy behavior. But if (when?) this bites them in the you-know-where, now they can't say they weren't warned.

I don't really care what somebody's silly reason for not getting a marriage license might be. It's a mistake not to have it and in addition to whatever prayers that person normally offers, they should add in a request that the law never has to sort out complications with their unlicensed marriage. Because my guess is 9 out of 10 of them have no idea the legal complications they might be risking.

tl;dr- Don't be a hero. Or a cautionary tale. Get a marriage license.

 

[krae991]

You're not "inviting the state" into your marriage, but instead, it is a necessary process in order to receive recognition not only from a Christian aspect, but also according to the law of the land, that you're a married couple.

Signing a contract is an agreement between you, your spouse, and the state, basically saying that you're a married couple. I don't see this having any effect on what the state can or cannot do with your children. Unwed couples having children happens frequently and the fact that they've never signed a contract hasn't ever prevented the states from stepping in if they felt the children were in danger or being neglected...

Just because the state is giving marriage licenses to gay couples, it should not mean all marriage licenses in general are invalid to Christians. You're not a gay couple, so I don't see why a gay couple getting a license should have any bearing on your decision.

Have you asked yourself if this is something you're both ready for? Are you both at a point in your life where you're ready to have a child? From what I've read, it sounds like neither of you have any connection to a Church or any kind of fellowship for support. I don't know how the present is going for you, but the brief history you mentioned leads me to believe neither of you are ready. Marriage is a contract between a man, woman, and God, but it is also a lot of work, and part of that work involves going through the motions of making yourselves a legally recognized couple.

Satan has a funny way of turning the tables on our reasoning. While we may think of them as legitimate excuses, they could also be used as a means to justify one into not doing that which would be otherwise right in the eyes of the Lord.

This is my opinion and just that. Now you both must be honest with yourself.

But in Bible times, they never had to sign a state-license for a marriage contract and couples were still considered married. All I see from the Bible (and not from most religious beliefs nowadays) of what a marriage is, is a ceremony, witnesses, covenant, public declaration. There is no contract with the state. There is a divorce contract in Deuteronomy (I think, one of the Old Testament books), but no initial marriage contract with state.

As for us being ready to marry, we were ready a year ago to marry, but this issue with signing with the state has postponed us from marrying. So yes, we are VERY ready to marry and start our lives together as an officially recognized married couple. We are ready to start a family, but we are going slow and making sure we do everything the right way in God's eyes and not endanger our future children or ourselves by doing something "just because everyone else does it" and it is expected.

 

[krae991]

FIND a church that will allow formal service of exchange of wedding vows ....without any state strings.

Thanks for your reply. Yes, that is what we are actually trying to do but it's difficult. Many Christian Baptist pastors will only marry with a state-issued marriage license and we find it pretty incredible that they don't question doing this to all couples they marry. In my mind, we should question everything, especially when the government tells us we "have to."

 

[Tetra]

Why would a licence from a "governing" body even be relevant?

 

[thecolorsblend]

FIND a church that will allow formal service of exchange of wedding vows ....without any state strings.

This is horrible advice.

 

[krae991]

With respect, I'm really not concerned about a "Bible basis" here. There are good reasons to have a license. Sacred scripture doesn't command me to wear a seatbelt. But wearing one is still a good policy.

Anyway, for one thing, people get divorced. Even Christians get divorced even though they should know better. There's always some ridiculous sob story about it too. Now, God forbid someone finds themselves in a divorce situation. But at least having the legal association of marriage will make an already terrible situation slightly less terrible. You have some kind of rights as a spouse. But if your marriage isn't recognized with a license, those rights might not be applied to you.

For two things, people die. And when they die, inheritance is a done-deal with a marriage license. But if the law genuinely isn't sure the deceased was married in a legal sense, inheritance could easily become a legal quagmire. We live in an age when Baby Boomer grandparents sue their Gen X and Millennial children for visitation rights to the grandchildren. It would be lovely to think family won't turn on each other. But let's be realistic here.

For three things, there's testimony. In my state, a wife cannot give testimony against her husband. Vice versa too. Can't. Cannot. It isn't that a spouse has the right to refuse to answer questions. They cannot give testimony. Period. They can't be compelled to give testimony and if they volunteer to give testimony, they have to be turned away. But do you really believe that will apply in a situation where there's no license? Maybe it will. But maybe it won't. Certainly there could be doubt as to whether the authorities have the right to compel answers from an unlicensed spouse. Doubt isn't ever a positive thing in this type of case.

I understand that a lot of Christians enjoy the virtue-signalling bravado like "Caesar can't tell me if I'm married or not". I get that. And good on them, far be it from me to judge others for their goofy behavior. But if (when?) this bites them in the you-know-where, now they can't say they weren't warned.

I don't really care what somebody's silly reason for not getting a marriage license might be. It's a mistake not to have it and in addition to whatever prayers that person normally offers, they should add in a request that the law never has to sort out complications with their unlicensed marriage. Because my guess is 9 out of 10 of them have no idea the legal complications they might be risking.

tl;dr- Don't be a hero. Or a cautionary tale. Get a marriage license.

I get where you're coming from and I respect your opinion on it. But should we really go into a marriage expecting to get a divorce? We are both against divorce, except in the case of adultery, and we've both said to each other that we would never leave. We consider ourselves already bound together.

And there are things like wills we can write up if the state still doesn't recognize we're married after a ceremony.

My fiance told me the Supreme Court ruled that government can't deny that a couple is married if they provide proof that the ceremony happened, was officiated, had witnesses, and there was a certificate signed. I'm was just wondering if anyone on this forum had a positive (or negative) experience with governments refusing recognition of their marriage.

 

[Hank77]

Personal cases of people not getting a license from the state, getting married using a covenant, and how they made the state view them as married so they get the same protection as other "legal" couples?

You cannot make the state give you legal protections of a married couple unless you are legally married in some state in the US or even in a foreign country.
I do know one couple who didn't contract with the state and were married in a ceremony with a retired Baptist minister. They were married in what is called a common law state. They are legally married. They did file a form at the court house, after they were married, stating the they are a married couple even though they did not legally have to file anything. They did it in case one of them died there would not be any question when it came to inheritance, etc.
If they were to end their marriage they would have to get a legal divorce through the court just like any other legally married couple would.

Thanks for your reply. Yes, that is what we are actually trying to do but it's difficult. Many Christian Baptist pastors will only marry with a state-issued marriage license and we find it pretty incredible that they don't question doing this to all couples they marry. In my mind, we should question everything, especially when the government tells us we "have to."

If your state says you must have a state issued marriage license in order for your marriage to be legal then you cannot expect a pastor to break the laws of the state he is practicing in.

 

[krae991]

Why would a licence from a "governing" body even be relevant?

I'm not sure what you're asking here. It's relevant due to the benefits it provides - tax breaks, health insurance, legal decision making benefits, inheritance benefits, etc. Since we will consider ourselves married through a covenant and after a ceremony, everyone else should to.

 

[krae991]

You cannot make the state give you legal protections of a married couple unless you are legally married in some state in the US or even in a foreign country.
I do know one couple who didn't contract with the state and were married in a ceremony with a retired Baptist minister. They were married in what is called a common law state. They are legally married. They did file a form at the court house, after they were married, stating the they are a married couple even though they did not legally have to file anything. They did it in case one of them died there would not be any question when it came to inheritance, etc.
If they were to end their marriage they would have to get a legal divorce through the court just like any other legally married couple would.

If your state says you must have a state issued marriage license in order for your marriage to be legal then you cannot expect a pastor to break the laws of the state he is practicing in.

Okay, thank you for your comment. If worse comes to worse, we will travel to a state that practices common law and get married there and come back to MN and inform them we were married in another state. I would have to research what states practice common law and if people from other states can marry there.

 

[thecolorsblend]

I get where you're coming from and I respect your opinion on it. But should we really go into a marriage expecting to get a divorce?

These days? Yes. Sorry if that ruffles any feathers but considering how widespread divorce is even among Christians, it's kind of naive to not think it's at least a possibility.

We are both against divorce, except in the case of adultery, and we've both said to each other that we would never leave. We consider ourselves already bound together.

That's lovely. I sure hope he doesn't change his mind later.

And there are things like wills we can write up if the state still doesn't recognize we're married after a ceremony.

How will that help you if your husband is ever called upon to testify against you for something?

My fiance told me the Supreme Court ruled that government can't deny that a couple is married if they provide proof that the ceremony happened, was officiated, had witnesses, and there was a certificate signed.

That's not necessarily the same thing as conferring the legal protections, virtues and benefits of an actual marriage license.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Thank you for your reply. And no, I'm not taking it the wrong way. I know it may seem like we ARE making this tougher than most people make it out to be, but we are both very wary of signing any contract, especially with the government and how corrupt it is nowadays. We 100% definitely want to be married and we are very devoted to each other and want to start a family together.

However, I have heard personal cases of people who get around the state-issued license and still are considered married by the government. I'm not sure how these people are doing this and still receive full benefits of licensed-married couples.

We do not want to risk our marriage or future children if we sign the license. We believe that by signing the license, we also invite the government to have a say in how our children are raised and the government may take them away from us if they see we are unfit parents (such as..."brainwashing" them with our Christian beliefs, or by not allowing them to take harmful hormone replacement drugs to stop puberty if they decide they are "transgender").

I know this may seem like we are going overboard to some people, but we want to know what we are getting into if we sign this license.

You make some good points, and I understand completely.

For one, taking your kids away because you are brainwashing them with Christian teachings would have been laughed at just a few years ago, but the way things are going today, I can see that as entirely possible, at least in the near future. That's not to say they won't do it no matter how careful you are, but we can only do the best we can do in heading something like that off..

 

[Hank77]

Okay, thank you for your comment. If worse comes to worse, we will travel to a state that practices common law and get married there and come back to MN and inform them we were married in another state. I would have to research what states practice common law and if people from other states can marry there.

People move from state to state all the time. They don't inform their new state if they are married or not. The 'Full Faith and Credit' rule of the US Constitution says that states will recognize the legal marriages obtained in other states.
Can you imagine what it would be like if married immigrates moving to this country had to get married again in the US in order to be legally married?