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Marriage - it may not be worth it anymore (for men)

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Tranquil Bondservant

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The gravity of this statement demonstrates the necessity of moving beyond the flesh in our interactions and making the garden our starting point.

The bible says, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.”

Which means he needs help and she's part of the solution. It doesn't matter what society thinks. It doesn't matter if it opposes our ideals or feelings. That's the standard He imposed. Our first considerations should follow suit.



You can't spend your life with someone unless you're willing to suffer on their behalf. If we considered that in light of our connections we'd find few tick the box. Without that in place exits are easy.

I call it the Meatloaf rule. He said I would do anything for love but I won't do that. If you know yourself well enough you'll know that isn't the case. There's things we'll do for some we wouldn't do for another. Liberties one can take that others can't.

You need malleability to make marriage work or you'll never get along. Compelling is the secret sauce. It isn't the result of force or conviction. It's usually an outgrowth of our esteem. You don't have to make yourself pray, forgive, or compromise because you value them. People who value one another treat each other differently. There's a level of respect that can't be missed. You're always seeking their best. I don't believe you can have a happy marriage without it.

I dated someone in the past where that was the case and it taught me an important lesson. We never argued, raised our voices, spoke to one another disrespectfully, or disparaged the other's flaws, work or dreams. We admired each other a lot and it influenced our interactions. He was levelheaded and cool tempered. That's why we got along so well.

Marriage can be great if you choose the right person and offer the same. It takes a lot of honesty to admit we're not ready, immature, temperamental and so on. It isn't therapy or a crutch. I place great emphasis on the quality of my hand. It's not enough that I believe in God. I need more than that. He needs to see who I am and how I live in light of it. If he's wise he'll hold me to that standard.




This is a great time to develop proficiency in prayer, fasting, self-control, patience and silence. Learning to serve others unselfishly is a precursor for marriage. Every moment won't be beautiful but how we see it is the difference.

~bella
Thank you for your response and reflections. It's a lot to take in but it's an important and deep subject. I hope you don't mind if I save this to a Word document; I have a feeling it's going to be useful & edifying for me to return to and think about again in the future.

I call it the Meatloaf rule. He said I would do anything for love but I won't do that. If you know yourself well enough you'll know that isn't the case. There's things we'll do for some we wouldn't do for another. Liberties one can take that others can't.
That's a fantastic & memorable name for a valuable truth. I wish I could give you 50 medals for the name alone :laughing:
 
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bèlla

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Thank you for your response and reflections. It's a lot to take in but it's an important and deep subject. I hope you don't mind if I save this to a Word document; I have a feeling it's going to be useful & edifying for me to return to and think about again in the future.

You're welcome and I don't mind. I hope you're blessed by my musings.

That's a fantastic & memorable name for a valuable truth. I wish I could give you 50 medals for the name alone :laughing:

Thank you.

I started chewing on it a few years ago while examining my biases. I noticed my willingness to tolerate certain behaviors in some and less so in others and wondered why. I discovered esteem was the linchpin.

I don't admire many people and when I do they've usually done something remarkable beyond the norm. I value the tenacity and discipline required for its attainment. While I wouldn't say they're great per se. The potential is evident and its intriguing. Those are the people I enjoy helping most. It feeds something within me and utilizes my gifts in a manner others don't.

If you remember the garden you'll understand the magnitude. That's the one I'm meant to serve.
I understood that everyone didn't require a woman like me. But I didn't have the biblical foundation to support it. Now I do. God didn't fashion me for a man who'd never use my gifts and talents. He forged me for one who needs them.

Knowing what you need assistance with is foremost as is where you like to serve. If you lead from your position in the garden you'll have better results than relying on attraction and emotions. You can be attracted to someone whose ill equipped to serve you. You can be attracted to someone who won't enjoy serving you in the manner you need most.

When we're considering someone for companionship we should ask why do you need me and their response should take us back to Genesis. If they don't understand their role how can they scrutinize?

~bella
 
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Tranquil Bondservant

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You're welcome and I don't mind. I hope you're blessed by my musings.
They have and they will continue to.
When we're considering someone for companionship we should ask why do you need me and their response should take us back to Genesis. If they don't understand their role how can they scrutinize?
I agree with 99% of what you wrote, including this, but I think we need to be careful when relying upon need. Some will desire to marry those who are disabled; either mentally or physically. And will marry through love in of itself. I'm not saying this to correct you at all because this isn't the point you were making and I'm sure there's an inherent caveat in your statement; but because The Lord has humbled me before when I was being overly analytical regarding (edit: not that, that is what you're doing) love I thought it would be handy to mention what He did. He reminded me that God Himself is love. Which itself is a sufficient justification for marriage (however, wisdom dictates it not be the only consideration).
 
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timewerx

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Many Christian men are still hooked in the idea that the traditional wife or the traditional marriage is something still common today. And they end up in a very bad shape, when they realize it is not.

Be careful not to project old ideas into the world in which these ideas no longer exist. So that you will not be destroyed. The justice system will be against you, will not hold to the same values as you do and will not care about any traditional values.

If a time machine is real, they can travel back in time at least 50 years to find a wife!^_^

Women are not the problem but the people who are supposed to be leading us and serving as examples. Motivated by greed and conceitedness, hey have led us down into a watery grave we may never come out of.

In recent years, mass media has been promoting a woman who is "strong" but is also, cold, materialistic/greedy, hateful, and mean. They are promoting fashion trends that are increasingly more expensive like whole body cosmetic surgery.

A couple decades ago, cosmetic surgery might be something someone would not be proud to admit having it done. But now, it has become a status symbol.

It takes a functional father and a mother to have a functional family. Ruin one and you ruin the whole family. It's a well calculated attack against family unit and sadly, most people, even most Christians can't see it and allowing false teachers to influence the way they live their lives instead of our Lord and the Word of God.
 
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Kale100

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How about this...
A) How does Christianity define marriage? B) How does the government define marriage?
Does B differ from A? If so, to Christians, B is not marriage? So what point then is there for Christians to engage in the 'legal marriage' of B?
2 Christians go to a church, conduct a ceremony - result: To them they are married, to the government they are not.
Marriage is between a man and a woman, not a man a woman and the government?
'Common law marriage' laws complicate things, but thankfully not all states have those.
 
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bèlla

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They have and they will continue to.

I agree with 99% of what you wrote, including this, but I think we need to be careful when relying upon need. Some will desire to marry those who are disabled; either mentally or physically. And will marry through love in of itself. I'm not saying this to correct you at all because this isn't the point you were making and I'm sure there's an inherent caveat in your statement; but because The Lord has humbled me before when I was being overly analytical regarding love I thought it would be handy to mention what He did. He reminded me that God Himself is love. Which itself is a sufficient justification for marriage (however, wisdom dictates it not be the only consideration).

I was sick in the past and my partners were driven by a need to provide and protect. I needed their support and encouragement. Love was a factor but it wasn't the lone reason for our togetherness.

The Father's correct. "Love is as much a question of the will as it is of the emotion. And if you will to love someone you can." There's little we can't do if we're willing to lean on Him.

Everyone would be married if we thought along those lines. But it requires us to look beyond ourselves for the greater good. Some people can do that but many can't.

~bella
 
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TheLastGeek

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Not exactly, many non-Christian countries (for example Muslim countries) have much higher marriage rate.

So, its not specifically about Christianity, but about conservatism and traditional/religious values, gender roles and structures. In today's Western world, these structures are diminishing and thats why marriages are very risky business with quite uncertain outcome.

Adding bad or gender-biased marriage/divorce laws into the mix may make the marriage not worth it for many.

Perhaps because people *can't* get divorced, or divorce comes with such severe repercussions that people stay miserably married instead. Staying married while miserable is not a mark of marital success whatsoever. The goal - I think we'd all agree - is to have a happy, fulfilling, content marriage.
 
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bèlla

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Women are not the problem but the people who are supposed to be leading us and serving as examples. Motivated by greed and conceitedness, hey have led us down into a watery grave we may never come out of.

The bible says there's nothing new under the sun. Men and women were always subjected to ideas that contradicted the word. Their tactics are more effective because He's no longer a priority. We aren't following Him. We've pledged allegiance to other things and borne its fruit.

The devil will do what he does but we don't have to get on board. Following him is a choice as is following God.

In recent years, mass media has been promoting a woman who is "strong" but is also, cold, materialistic/greedy, hateful, and mean.

Marketing only hits home when the message appeals. There must be something within the audience that supports the ideology. Otherwise they'd reject it. Many women want autonomy. If being selfish, cold and materialistic is the way to attain it they'll do it.

They are promoting fashion trends that are increasingly more expensive like whole body cosmetic surgery. A couple decades ago, cosmetic surgery might be something someone would not be proud to admit having it done. But now, it has become a status symbol.

No one can compel you to go under the knife unless your values align with the procedure or you're desirous of the outcome in spite of the pain. I'm not anti surgery but I think moderation is best. They were getting procedures in Victorian times and photoshopping pictures too. It isn't a new phenomenon.

The more money you have the more important it is to set boundaries. When things are out of reach you're less likely to contemplate them seriously. But when money isn't an option you need guidelines in place that support your values and kindred spirits of a similar stripe.

Excess doesn't breed temperance. You need that in place before it arrives.

It takes a functional father and a mother to have a functional family. Ruin one and you ruin the whole family. It's a well calculated attack against family unit and sadly, most people, even most Christians can't see it and allowing false teachers to influence the way they live their lives instead of our Lord and the Word of God.

Functional means different things to different people and everyone should define it who's contemplating marriage. But most aren't that intentional and few plan their lives. They have ideas and goals but rarely something concrete in place. You need a vision for yourself and your family. An ethos you're working towards and establishing in your children and descendants. There should be a blueprint others can follow.

Wealthy people craft it through a family office. That's where dynasties are forged. They lay out their principles and expectations in writing and they're enforced by others. The reward system is spelled out as are infractions and consequences.

You don't need a family office to do the same. But you have to know how to lead, be worthy of respect and have the will to push it through and challenge others. If they don't buy into your vision it dies. It has to be mutually beneficial for everyone. Faith is a key component but it must be grounded in the natural. And that usually requires a mission.

You need two components to pull it off. A patriarch and matriarch. Two legacy minded people wholly invested in the mission and the family's future. It becomes their great work. That's how you rewrite your destiny. You don't leave things to chance or place it in a pastor's hands, school, or strangers. You're hands on throughout and willing to sacrifice for the greater goal.

There's men and women with that bearing in the church. Some realize it after marriage and a few do beforehand. The latter is best to find your complement. You can't make someone dynastic or cajole them into doing it. The majority want ease and it's a lot of work. When done correctly the children are more agreeable and easier to influence. You're on the same page and they carry the banner.

If you have a good leader and strategist you can accomplish a lot.

~bella
 
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timewerx

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But you have to know how to lead, be worthy of respect and have the will to push it through and challenge others. If they don't buy into your vision it dies. It has to be mutually beneficial for everyone. Faith is a key component but it must be grounded in the natural. And that usually requires a mission.

I think many/most people who are leaders in their respective fields are not good leaders.

If their long term goals are to destroy the planet, exploit the poor, destroy the family unit, turn us against each other then they're doing incredibly well! Either doing it themselves or supporting those who does (even if through ignorance of the fact).

It would make them bad leaders as they are effectively leading others to condemnation. The fact they teach or impart their knowledge to others also make them false teachers.

I suppose the quality of a good leader is placing the pursuit of the Truth above anything else even above one's self-preservation.

Living in a world of lies, an impossibly difficult and dangerous task as you're making yourself accountable, not just in people lives but also their eternal destiny. A job no one would probably be eager to accept if they only knew what is at stake.
 
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bèlla

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I think many/most people who are leaders in their respective fields are not good leaders.

If their long term goals are to destroy the planet, exploit the poor, destroy the family unit, turn us against each other then they're doing incredibly well! Either doing it themselves or supporting those who does (even if through ignorance of the fact).

Good and evil will coexist until the end. The challenge isn't their eradication. That won't occur until Christ comes. Navigating the labyrinth requires skill and gumption. The bible is our guideline but God gave us a mind as well. Some things must be honed through learning and experience. You won't get it through osmosis. You have to put ideas in play and test them for soundness. That's how you discover what works and make adjustments as needed.

Most people are waiting for someone to tell them what to do or provide the answers to their problems. They don't have the motivation to dig and find them on their own. Dependence is a key facet of oppression. The longer you rely on your overseer the less likely you'll resist.

It would make them bad leaders as they are effectively leading others to condemnation. The fact they teach or impart their knowledge to others also make them false teachers.

I suppose the quality of a good leader is placing the pursuit of the Truth above anything else even above one's self-preservation.

The bible demonstrates the differences between good and bad constantly. But we're peculiar creatures. In spite of our reason we forgo the obvious in deference to belief. We know they're bad. Their actions prove the malice in their hearts and unconcern. Nevertheless, we extend our hands expecting benevolence and shrink in surprise when he wraps it instead.

I can only surmise that the spirit of blindness is most effective and the deceiver has hoodwinked the populace to the point where they're unable to detect the difference between the two. Especially when it changes form. We never spot the chameleon.

Be wise as serpents we're told. Serpents are very cunning. They don't think in black or white. All shapes have sides and when you move around you see something different depending on the angle. We're oblivious to the angles before our eyes that's why its difficult to detect the wolves and we put many in our pulpits.

It's impossible to best an adversary if you won't utilize the tools you're given. We know the weapons of our warfare and their instruments. But we're unable to separate our feelings from facts to see clearly.

We don't see things as they are--ourselves, others and our circumstances--as they are. We see them as we are--our thoughts, beliefs, feelings, hopes and dreams. If the Lord imparted one gift for my benefit I would ask for discernment. If He graced me with two I'd request wisdom to accompany. There's little you couldn't accomplish in life with them in tow.

Living in a world of lies, an impossibly difficult and dangerous task as you're making yourself accountable, not just in people lives but also their eternal destiny. A job no one would probably be eager to accept if they only knew what is at stake.

It was never His intention for us to shrink or wait on others to respond. Dominion is proactive. You can't govern from the sidelines or pass the baton to another on your behalf. We're placed in a sphere to affect the atmosphere. It should be altered through our presence.

If we understood time in its proper context we'd realize our position in light of its progression. Each period was designed to yield specific results much like creation. No one draws breath by happenstance. When we neglect to seek the reason for our presence in light of the god man we are--after it's own kind--we fail to grasp the principles laid out in Genesis.

If we're made in His image we possess His essence. That's why a mustard seed will suffice. There's something behind the faith He's addressing. A power beyond our imagining. But we're too afraid to use it. We want to be rescued, raptured and delivered.

No wonder the serpent prevails. The lone angle we know is I can't. A car can reach 200 miles or more. But if you never past 60 that doesn't mean it can't go faster. You haven't used it to the fullest.

I don't know about you but I won't meet my Maker with most of the power gone untapped. I can't leave the work undone because someone pays the price. Every mantle set aside or never assumed is a hole in the fabric.

Satan is effective because we aren't. He works and we don't. Don't get mad at his people. Get upset with your brothers and sisters who won't do their job. They're part of the problem. But we don't want to talk about that because it hits too close to home.

We complain things are hard and evil is rampant. Just because we quit doesn't mean he did. We spend five minutes with God and his minions spend hours. If you keep that up you'll have different results. Sometimes you have to face the music and stop pointing fingers and feeling sorry yourself. We didn't get here overnight. While the world is distracted they keep going.

We're at war whether we like it or not. Our enemy will do whatever it takes to destroy us. It's my responsibility not to place myself in his hands unnecessarily. Due to habitual sins, spiritual transgressions, inactivity and folly. The more I understand the One I serve the easier alignment becomes which frees me from his clutches.

Liberty has a price. We're free to the measure we accept. I know my standard. I don't want him in my life, my home, relationships or work and that requires vigilance. Which may require me to pray at midnight, fast on the sabbath or abstain from activities that open doors or promote compromises I shouldn't make.

You're dealing with sharks and they love the kill. There's nothing more satisfying than catching your prey off-guard. They'll do all they can to keep us distracted and entertained while they work behind the scenes. While I don't know all they've planned I've seen enough to recognize it's a multi-layered and multi-pronged assault.

But in spite of that duality holds true. We're in the midst of the greatest accumulation of wealth we've ever witnessed. Far beyond the Gilded Age. You could build multi generational wealth in one swoop and secure your line. But you won't know that if you're busy with the news and Trump. You won't see the magician in action because you're watching the puppets.

If I wanted to take advantage of that I'd disconnect and limit all distractions. I'd comb YouTube for insight on ai, crypto, and income ideas. I wouldn't put all my eggs in one basket or rely on an employer. I'd spend more time in the word and prayer, fast weekly and listen to someone who emphasized a strong work ethic and taking action. Benjamin Hardy is good.

I wouldn't engage in debates, political discussions or focus on world events beyond prayer. I'd spend less time online and more energy towards practical skills that enhance self-sufficiency and proficiency. If my friend count was low I'd work on that. If I lived in America I'd look for commentary on the Fed and Yellen and spend less time on Biden.

Above all I'd remember it's a game and question everything. I'd rest in Christ's victory and hone my head. I'd spend more time reading than watching and probably pick up chess.

It's not too late to start but its getting close.

~bella
 
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timewerx

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Satan is effective because we aren't. He works and we don't. Don't get mad at his people. Get upset with your brothers and sisters who won't do their job. They're part of the problem. But we don't want to talk about that because it hits too close to home.

I'm not upset but frustrated because their actions only bring confusion by living in contradiction of Christ's teachings. Quite ironic to call themselves Christian but chronically anti-Christian in their actions.

I always keep an open mind, the benefit of doubt. Even if they are anti-Christ in their ways, I try to think there might a purpose to it. Thus, the confusion and making it that much harder to see which one is the truth.

Have we become the Pharisees. We're doing the same thing now. Making it harder for those wants to enter to get in. While the Pharisees were confident of their salvation, they didn't realize it's not going to cut it.
 
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bèlla

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I'm not upset but frustrated because their actions only bring confusion by living in contradiction of Christ's teachings. Quite ironic to call themselves Christian but chronically anti-Christian in their actions.

I always keep an open mind, the benefit of doubt. Even if they are anti-Christ in their ways, I try to think there might a purpose to it. Thus, the confusion and making it that much harder to see which one is the truth.

I remember a conversation a few years ago about ubi. A lot of people supported it. They wanted to stay home and have the government take care of them. You don't have to be the smartest card in the deck to realize the folly of being dependent on wicked rulers. It won't end well.

Some genuinely believe that's true. Others were put in a position to make that statement in specific settings. That's why we have to test the spirit.


Have we become the Pharisees. We're doing the same thing now. Making it harder for those wants to enter to get in. While the Pharisees were confident of their salvation, they didn't realize it's not going to cut it.

God knows how to get His people. He won't be thwarted by us. There's always a ram in the bush.

~bella
 
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ThisIsMe123

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But there are times when the break up could have been avoided. People generally don't decide on a whim to get divorced and there's usually a lot leading up to it. The Bible tells husbands to love their wives, and loving someone is an ongoing process. Neglect your marriage and spouse and you have to be prepared to accept the consequences.

There are alot of complaints of it's the woman that is always initiating the divorce, while...sometimes, the man is caught completely off-guard by it...and claims to be the victim in all this.

However, he was just ignoring the signs, ignoring her needs, and blowing off her issues and what she's trying to voice to him. Although he's not abusive, not an alcoholic, not a cheater....apparently, he just slides through the marriage.

Kind of like, once you caught up with the train on the tracks, there's no more chasing it once it's caught.

He's no longer puts work into the marriage anymore, he's just an Al Bundy, sitting on the couch, with hand in pants. Completely complacent. This usually triggers a long journey to a divorce.
Then he gets home, and sees a Dear JOhn letter, and her bags are packed.
 
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I'm not upset but frustrated because their actions only bring confusion by living in contradiction of Christ's teachings. Quite ironic to call themselves Christian but chronically anti-Christian in their actions.

I always keep an open mind, the benefit of doubt. Even if they are anti-Christ in their ways, I try to think there might a purpose to it. Thus, the confusion and making it that much harder to see which one is the truth.

Have we become the Pharisees. We're doing the same thing now. Making it harder for those wants to enter to get in. While the Pharisees were confident of their salvation, they didn't realize it's not going to cut it.

You know what, when I was in my mid to late 20s and attending Christian singles groups at a church, I was dumb founded at the number of divorced women in these groups around the same age.

Back then, I actually had a "I don't date divorced women" policy, there was just something off-putting about a 20-something divorcee. One was a single mother, with a toddler, and she was barely 25.

It's more of a red flag than a 40-something divorcee'.
 
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ThisIsMe123

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Many Christian men are still hooked in the idea that the traditional wife or the traditional marriage is something still common today. And they end up in a very bad shape, when they realize it is not.

Be careful not to project old ideas into the world in which these ideas no longer exist. So that you will not be destroyed. The justice system will be against you, will not hold to the same values as you do and will not care about any traditional values.

If you have any doubts or see some red flags about your woman, do not marry her.

I am seeing more and more videos lately about how men are essentially screwed in the dating world. How women only pursue the top 10% of men, while being ignored by those same men, and with those women ignoring the men that are at their caliber.

Even women YouTubers are jumping on the bandwagon, sympathizing with the bad luck these men are having. These videos are really trending much and much more.

I'm also seeing a lot of Jordan Peterson lately.
 
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bèlla

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I am seeing more and more videos lately about how men are essentially screwed in the dating world. How women only pursue the top 10% of men, while being ignored by those same men, and with those women ignoring the men that are at their caliber.

Even women YouTubers are jumping on the bandwagon, sympathizing with the bad luck these men are having. These videos are really trending much and much more.

I'm also seeing a lot of Jordan Peterson lately.

Health, wealth and love are evergreen subjects that perform well across all mediums. In all likelihood you're seeing more videos along these lines because you watch them. That's how the alogorithm works. I don't get them on my feed and I doubt I'm alone in that.

Sometimes we repeat things so frequently we're divorced from the magnitude of what it implies. If the consensus is most women no longer avail themselves to suitors outside of a certain caliber there's a disconnection between its utterance and what it entails.

Selectivity of that stripe requires a mindset and related behaviors to make it work. You'd need well-formed opinions and ideals to fuel your commitment. Consideration and recognition are an outgrowth of that philosophy. There's noticeable differences in conversation, interests and values. Many outside the norm.

The totality of their person is a reflection of their ideal. Whether they embody the beauty standards or not. Their behavior bears witness to their preferences and won't be missed if you're astute. There's a difference between compatibility and high-mindedness. The majority are probably talking to her.

When left unchecked you'll veer into snobbery, conceit, and materialism. You'll cease to see value beyond the boundaries you've set. When esteem is lacking it's evident. They neither see or value your worth. Whether you agree isn't the question. It's the frequent recollection of someone that was never an option that's disconcerting.

What rational man wants a woman like that? He should do everything in his power to avoid her. You're not talking about paragons. You're addressing a demographic who probably feels you're beneath them. Why are you giving them attention? There's millions who feel otherwise but no one talks about them. It's always the ones who said no. It's becoming a fixation for some.

It takes a lot of gall to be entitled and demanding. When you consider that in light of the characteristics named the probability of faith is slim. I'm not suggesting Christian women are perfect but the other is easy to spot. She gives off a lot of clues.

I think it's more important to recognize the signs so you don't waste your time. That isn't possible until you pinpoint why you spoke. How did they get in your sphere, what attracted you to them and so on. Once you narrow it down you'll have something to draw from and can avoid them.

While I understand the importance of recognizing problems. When the problem is all you discuss that's a problem too. It saturates your mind and draws more of the same. Because words are magnets. If we want a spouse we should focus on the qualities we're seeking not the bad apples.

~bella
 
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timewerx

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You know what, when I was in my mid to late 20s and attending Christian singles groups at a church, I was dumb founded at the number of divorced women in these groups around the same age.

Plenty in our church too. From things I hear in testimonies, it's usually the man cheating or has far too many vices to be a good father and husband.

Ironically, it's usually the high income group that is prone to cheating and having tons of vices because it requires a large income to support such lifestyle.

I'm talking of Christian's btw.
 
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TheLastGeek

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I am seeing more and more videos lately about how men are essentially screwed in the dating world. How women only pursue the top 10% of men, while being ignored by those same men, and with those women ignoring the men that are at their caliber.
What exactly is a "top 10% man"?

Do men go around pursuing women of "their caliber" and ignoring the top 10% women? Also wondering what a "top 10% woman" is.
 
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NBB

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Because the "formality" puts state laws and judges to decide your life if something go wrong. And those favor women.


In a lot of countries, thanks to the 'feminist movement' some decades ago, you don't even need to marry, if a man stays in the same house sometimes with his girlfriend, even on and off for some time, the men may need to pay 'divorce', laws haven't catch up with current reality or have made things worse.
 
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ThisIsMe123

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In a lot of countries, thanks to the 'feminist movement' some decades ago, you don't even need to marry, if a man stays in the same house sometimes with his girlfriend, even on and off for some time, the men may need to pay 'divorce', laws haven't catch up with current reality or have made things worse.

Interesting that Christian men aren't immune to the woes of dating and/or, they mirror exactly secular dating pretty much.

When I met a 25 year old divorce woman, I"m like "That was quick! Whatever happend till death do you part?!"
I was naïve to think that back then.
 
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