Marriage - it may not be worth it anymore (for men)

[Lost4words]

I want to stay single. I hate sharing my bowl!

 

[Sketcher]

If you mean the end of the video, the advice "pay a woman to have your children and then live with another woman without having children with her", its not a Christian advice. Though it may protect some men better than current laws marriages, its not something I would go for or recommend.

Even when you take out the sinful aspect, it's not even practical for many, many men.

 

[TheLastGeek]

Are you claiming that the examples in the video do not happen often or are too rare to care?


If you mean the end of the video, the advice "pay a woman to have your children and then live with another woman without having children with her", its not a Christian advice. Though it may protect some men better than current laws marriages, its not something I would go for or recommend.

I think the examples are incredibly individual, and wouldn't apply to many men who are facing divorce. I've known quite a few couples through my lifetime who have divorced, and the arrangements were civil and nobody was trying to gut or ruin the other person. I think an ugly divorce is largely dependent on having ugly people with ugly hearts involved in the marriage in the first place. If you go in with selfish, shallow, demanding expectations, you'll come out again with the same mindset.

None of the advice in this video seems to come from a place of faith. And that's not a reason to dismiss it out of hand, but it does "taint" it, so to speak, in some ways.

 

[TheRealAriel]

Posting fairly blind.. really have no interest in watching that video.

Short answer is if you’re seeking statistics and reasons to lose faith in the opposite gender, you probably don’t have any business entering into a partnership with a member of the opposite sex. And I think it’s fantastic to be so straight forward with your opinions and beliefs on the subject. If a man didn’t want to get married and thought ill of women in general, I would really appreciate his being open about it as our values clearly wouldn’t align and I’d have no interest in trying to get a man to marry me if he didn’t want to.

Reflecting, realizing who you are and what you care about, and determining what you do and don’t want is very valuable.

 

[TheLastGeek]

Interesting video. makes you wonder why woman are always complaining that there are no good men out there and that men never want to commit...wonder if they ever think THIS might be the reason. A friend of mine years ago wanted to marry this girl he went out with for 8 years and then she cheated on him. At the time he was out shopping for a big ring. Well, now, years later, she is on her 3rd marriage and my friend dodged a bullet...

It goes both ways. Just read the threads in this area of CF to see that men go on and on and on... and on... about the lack of good women, lol.

People would do well to stop complaining and generalizing, and start looking at others as individuals, and at themselves with honest scrutiny to see what they might change to make themselves better partner material.

 

[TheLastGeek]

Short answer is if you’re seeking statistics and reasons to lose faith in the opposite gender, you probably don’t have any business entering into a partnership with a member of the opposite sex.

THIS. THIS, THIS, THIS.

 

[Sketcher]

It goes both ways. Just read the threads in this area of CF to see that men go on and on and on... and on... about the lack of good women, lol.

People would do well to stop complaining and generalizing, and start looking at others as individuals, and at themselves with honest scrutiny to see what they might change to make themselves better partner material.

That also goes both ways. Most people can and should improve themselves and their situations. But no amount of self-improvement will protect you from a partner who is of low character. If there is a lack of potential partners with good character, you're that much less likely to partner up if you're smart and don't hate yourself.

 

[bèlla]

Posting fairly blind.. really have no interest in watching that video.

Short answer is if you’re seeking statistics and reasons to lose faith in the opposite gender, you probably don’t have any business entering into a partnership with a member of the opposite sex.

There's a difference between acknowledging the pitfalls and dwelling on them ad nauseam. I've never seen anyone accomplish a dream who invested more energy in the obstacles than its attainment. You get what you expect whether you realize it or not.

I don't focus on the odds. I weigh my capacity in light of the goal. If marriage is my aim I don't care about the stats. They're meaningless. All that matters are the considerations of my ideal. What does he want? What does he need? What does he struggle to find? That's what I target. I'm not matching the world. I'm matching him.

In human connections you have to ask hard questions. What are they getting out of it? How are they bettered through my presence? What are they taking on? Where do I fall short and where do I excel? What can I live with? Whether you like it or not they're thinking along those lines.

Most bad relationships are the result of poor assessments or self-awareness.

~bella

 

[trophy33]

That's good advice, and what people should be doing before considering marriage. But giving that advice is a different stance from stating that marriage isn't worth it.

Its not worth it, if those points are ignored (i.e. in the vast majority).

For the rest, the risks may be worth it, or maybe not. Depends. In any case, the risks need to be known before the contract is signed.

 

[TheLastGeek]

That also goes both ways. Most people can and should improve themselves and their situations. But no amount of self-improvement will protect you from a partner who is of low character. If there is a lack of potential partners with good character, you're that much less likely to partner up if you're smart and don't hate yourself.

I think you're sort of just agreeing with what I said above. Being aware of one's self, our strengths and weaknesses, our virtues and flaws, and working honestly and consistently to improve who we are as human beings, is good innoculation against settling for partners who aren't properly suited for us. Becoming "better partner material" not only means you're less likely to settle for less than what you need and deserve, but you'll widen your field of prospective GOOD matches. If I'm an unhealthy, miserable hot mess of a woman, I'm not going to attract healthy, stable, level-headed men, and I'm far more likely to end up latching onto the first man who pays me a scrap of attention.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

People would do well to stop complaining and generalizing, and start looking at others as individuals, and at themselves with honest scrutiny to see what they might change to make themselves better partner material.

Probably a good idea.

 

[mojoboy31]

The whole point of this thread confuses me. "May not be worth it"!? Are we trying to attribute some value to marriage now? "Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church *and gave Himself up for her*..." If you're looking at marriage in terms of "what's in it for me?", then do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars-- you have missed the point.

 

[trophy33]

The whole point of this thread confuses me. "May not be worth it"!? Are we trying to attribute some value to marriage now? "Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church *and gave Himself up for her*..." If you're looking at marriage in terms of "what's in it for me?", then do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars-- you have missed the point.

Sometimes, more than just reading the title is needed. Watch the video, read the OP.

 

[Sketcher]

I think you're sort of just agreeing with what I said above. Being aware of one's self, our strengths and weaknesses, our virtues and flaws, and working honestly and consistently to improve who we are as human beings, is good innoculation against settling for partners who aren't properly suited for us. Becoming "better partner material" not only means you're less likely to settle for less than what you need and deserve, but you'll widen your field of prospective GOOD matches. If I'm an unhealthy, miserable hot mess of a woman, I'm not going to attract healthy, stable, level-headed men, and I'm far more likely to end up latching onto the first man who pays me a scrap of attention.

Yeah I mostly agree with that.

 

[Tranquil Bondservant]

"Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are members of His body." -Ephesians 5:25-30

"He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. “And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.” The disciples said to Him, “If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry.” But He said to them, “Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given. “For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother’s womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it.” -Matthew 19:8-12

Both marriage and singleness require God to be front and center. It's no coincidence that with the increase of Atheism, Agnosticism, subjective (arbitrary) morality and etc that we see a decline in commitment to a spouse. Combine this with the radical redefinition of marriage to man's parameters & desires (i.e. Romans 1:27) instead of Biblical ones (I.e. Adam & Eve, loving the person self-sacrificially to the point of your own death); then of course man's parameters are going to be the sword which kills it.

God is faithful to us, He proved it with His love and faithfulness to Israel even though they consistently broke their covenant with Him (Jeremiah 31:32). And He even proved it to Abraham and us who are gentiles (Genesis 12:3, Romans 4:10-13) in the incarnation, death, resurrection & ascension of The Son of Man, Jesus (Mark 14:61-62). When real belief in these truths declines, so to will marriage. We should all stop looking to marriage as only a gratification for us individually (though it is to some extent), but as a union and becoming a single flesh or unit with a person until our death. I'm not saying that we are all going to fulfill these things, but the removal of them as a reality in which we should try to attain is the cause for all of these issues. The gain or 'worth' of a marriage is important only within the context of The Kingdom of God. The very idea of putting a worldly/fleshly self-gain value on a spiritual lifelong covenant somewhat betrays or undermines the biblical principles given in Ephesians 5:25-30.

When faithfulness to The Lord regardless of circumstance is our goal, then marriage will naturally have lifelong fuel because it's not based solely upon our feelings, lusts or desires. “But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you." -Matthew 6:33

Please do not take my words as accusatory. I know I fail in attaining many if not the majority of things written above too. However, we should do our best to keep these tenets in our hearts and try our best to use them as our glasses through which we see things; especially marriage. God bless .

Tldr: Decline in Christianity = decline in marriage, marriage commitment and marriage faithfulness.

 

[trophy33]

Tldr: Decline in Christianity = decline in marriage, marriage commitment and marriage faithfulness.

Not exactly, many non-Christian countries (for example Muslim countries) have much higher marriage rate.

So, its not specifically about Christianity, but about conservatism and traditional/religious values, gender roles and structures. In today's Western world, these structures are diminishing and thats why marriages are very risky business with quite uncertain outcome.

Adding bad or gender-biased marriage/divorce laws into the mix may make the marriage not worth it for many.

List of countries by marriage rate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Tranquil Bondservant]

Not exactly, many non-Christian countries (for example Muslim countries) have much higher marriage rate.

So, its not specifically about Christianity, but about conservatism and traditional/religious values and structures. In today's Western world, these structures are diminishing and thats why marriages are very risky business with quite uncertain outcome.

List of countries by marriage rate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There's no such thing as traditional religious values. There's traditional Christian values versus other religious values but the reason for practicising the values themselves are wholly distinct because they come from different sources (e.g. Buddhism & reincarnation, Islam & Mohammed, Jews & the Talmud). Marriage to a Muslim who endorses polygamy is different than a Christian marriage between a single man & woman. Their reason for marriage is also wholly different and treats women as property, whereas the Spirit of The Law found in Christ treats women of equal value to men even though we might take on different roles (as we're a unified flesh) and calls for us to love them as Christ, who died for us, loves us; something that Islam explicitly denies. So you can't coalesce the structures of western societies which have been and still are steeped in Christian morality and divorce them from the reasons for their existence. I mentioned that here:

Both marriage and singleness require God to be front and center. It's no coincidence that with the increase of Atheism, Agnosticism, subjective (arbitrary) morality and etc that we see a decline in commitment to a spouse. Combine this with the radical redefinition of marriage to man's parameters & desires (i.e. Romans 1:27) instead of Biblical ones (I.e. Adam & Eve, loving the person self-sacrificially to the point of your own death); then of course man's parameters are going to be the sword which kills it.

When real belief in these truths declines, so to will marriage. ... but the removal of them as a reality in which we should try to attain is the cause for all of these issues.

When faithfulness to The Lord regardless of circumstance is our goal, then marriage will naturally have lifelong fuel because it's not based solely upon our feelings, lusts or desires.

 

[trophy33]

There's no such thing as traditional religious values. There's traditional Christian values versus other religious values but the reason for practicising the values themselves are wholly distinct because they come from different sources (e.g. Buddhism & reincarnation, Islam & Mohammed, Jews & the Talmud). Marriage to a Muslim who endorses polygamy is different than a Christian marriage between a single man & woman. Their reason for marriage is also wholly different and treats women as property, whereas the Spirit of The Law found in Christ treats women of equal value to men even though we might take on different roles (as we're a unified flesh) and calls for us to love them as Christ, who died for us, loves us; something that Islam explicitly denies. So you can't coalesce the structures of western societies which have been and still are steeped in Christian morality and divorce them from the reasons for their existence. I mentioned that here:

I am not sure what is your point, honestly. Try to formulate your thoughts in a more simple and readable way, if you can.

 

[Tranquil Bondservant]

I am not sure what is your point, honestly. Try to formulate your thoughts in a more simple and readable way, if you can.

The reason for the the diminishing structures you mentioned is due to the diminishing true belief in Jesus Christ or in modern terminology; the decline of Christianity. When Atheism, Agnosticism or a different belief system replaces Christianity the reasons for keeping the values of Christianity cease to exist. The reasons for marriage and it's form/structure changes from culture to culture or religion to religion "e.g. Buddhism & reincarnation, Islam & Mohammed, Jews & the Talmud". And therefore when you get rid of Christianity, you knock out the pillars of marriage because you have removed the reason for being faithful/getting married. The truthfulness of the values and the reason to keep them are inherently tied to the truthfulness of Christianity.

I'm sorry for being verbose, I've always had a problem of writing too much instead of not enough. Thank you for asking for clarification rather than just ignoring it .

Edit: So my point was in my previous response to you that it is specifically about Christianity and the way you conceive of marriage as a structure is inherently tied to Christianity. Therefore, the reason for the diminishing of marriage as a structure is because of the increase of secular "values" which have no reason to be kept when Christianity is replaced. And my first comment dealt with the reasons for marriage & it's successfulness.

 

[bèlla]

We should all stop looking to marriage as only a gratification for us individually (though it is to some extent), but as a union and becoming a single flesh or unit with a person until our death. I'm not saying that we are all going to fulfill these things, but the removal of them as a reality in which we should try to attain is the cause for all of these issues. The gain or 'worth' of a marriage is important only within the context of The Kingdom of God. The very idea of putting a worldly/fleshly self-gain value on a spiritual lifelong covenant somewhat betrays or undermines the biblical principles given in Ephesians 5:25-30.

The gravity of this statement demonstrates the necessity of moving beyond the flesh in our interactions and making the garden our starting point.

The bible says, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.”

Which means he needs help and she's part of the solution. It doesn't matter what society thinks. It doesn't matter if it opposes our ideals or feelings. That's the standard He imposed. Our first considerations should follow suit.

When faithfulness to The Lord regardless of circumstance is our goal, then marriage will naturally have lifelong fuel because it's not based solely upon our feelings, lusts or desires. “But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you." -Matthew 6:33

You can't spend your life with someone unless you're willing to suffer on their behalf. If we considered that in light of our connections we'd find few tick the box. Without that in place exits are easy.

I call it the Meatloaf rule. He said I would do anything for love but I won't do that. If you know yourself well enough you'll know that isn't the case. There's things we'll do for some we wouldn't do for another. Liberties one can take that others can't.

You need malleability to make marriage work or you'll never get along. Compelling is the secret sauce. It isn't the result of force or conviction. It's usually an outgrowth of our esteem. You don't have to make yourself pray, forgive, or compromise because you value them. People who value one another treat each other differently. There's a level of respect that can't be missed. You're always seeking their best. I don't believe you can have a happy marriage without it.

I dated someone in the past where that was the case and it taught me an important lesson. We never argued, raised our voices, spoke to one another disrespectfully, or disparaged the other's flaws, work or dreams. We admired each other a lot and it influenced our interactions. He was levelheaded and cool tempered. That's why we got along so well.

Marriage can be great if you choose the right person and offer the same. It takes a lot of honesty to admit we're not ready, immature, temperamental and so on. It isn't therapy or a crutch. I place great emphasis on the quality of my hand. It's not enough that I believe in God. I need more than that. He needs to see who I am and how I live in light of it. If he's wise he'll hold me to that standard.

Please do not take my words as accusatory. I know I fail in attaining many if not the majority of things written above too. However, we should do our best to keep these tenets in our hearts and try our best to use them as our glasses through which we see things; especially marriage. God bless .

Tldr: Decline in Christianity = decline in marriage, marriage commitment and marriage faithfulness.

This is a great time to develop proficiency in prayer, fasting, self-control, patience and silence. Learning to serve others unselfishly is a precursor for marriage. Every moment won't be beautiful but how we see it is the difference.

~bella