Mark of the Beast

[Ligurian]

One would have to point out the order of Revelation not Daniel to show how Revelation is not chronological. I never said anything about Daniel being chronological. Most of Daniel was historically fulfilled before Christ died on the Cross. Not relevant to 70AD either. No 10 empire (Nation) coalition joined Rome at any time in the first century.


Since John never mentioned that all the judgments happened simultaneously, but used the phrase "after that" several times, it would indicate some kind of time line (chronological).

Chronological:

(of a record of events) starting with the earliest and following the order in which they occurred.

Is there any where John said, "But before this happened"?

Rome is the only one of the seven that cannot be the beast... since Rome's the kingdom that is at the time Revelation was written. If it can't be the kingdom when Revelation was written, then it must be... run by the little horn that has a short time... and is part of the 7.

This beast is made out of, at least, the Greece and Medo-Persian conquests, and it speaks like Babylon. Since Babylon can only be adulterous towards the Father of Jesus, she's the false mother of the people of the book. The false prophet comes up after the first beast, and is also of the people of the book. Babylon only becomes Babylon after she's deceived the nominal Christians who accept doctrines that aren't from Jesus... before that she's called Jezebel who teaches spiritual adultery to those who just aren't very careful of what they eat/believe. This Jezebel gets tossed upon a bed of adultery, and her believers go into great tribulation. Babylon and her children and the false prophet are collectively guilty of killing the witnesses of Jesus... the false prophet orders them to make an idol, and then they kill the prophets and saints.

So... maybe there is some truth to the saying that the world wandering after the beast is not the whole inhabited world... only about those with which God has had enough, already. But if it is about the whole wide world, which side of history will you be on? The ludicrous chronological-at-all-costs, or the common-sense model?

 

[Timtofly]

If you look back through history, is there any time in history in which you would rather be living? Or has the world only gotten more Christ like, more caring, more loving, more compassionate and more humane throughout the centuries? Sure, there are still hard times and bad people, but compare it to history and you'll have to agree that things were much worse in our past. This is because the kingdom of Christ is growing and will eventually envelop the entire world, as prophesied.

Daniel 2:35
But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.

Nope. This world has not gotten more Christlike.

 

[Chi.C]

I got a question for my Christian Brothers and Sisters i wanna see what you guys got to say Who do you guys believe the Beast is? and Who you guys believe the Mark is? Any opinions or interpretations are accepted God bless

The beast is the roman civilization (former empire based in europe and asia minor). The mark of the beast is based on the 7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 vials of Revelations. Seeing only 6 seals, hearing only 6 trumpets and tasting only 6 vials, one is fooled to believing the history is only a cycle that must be endured. Book of Revelation foretells the end of history.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Nope. This world has not gotten more Christlike.

EDIT: I misread what you wrote and apologize. I agree.

 

[Ligurian]

If you look back through history, is there any time in history in which you would rather be living? Or has the world only gotten more Christ like, more caring, more loving, more compassionate and more humane throughout the centuries? Sure, there are still hard times and bad people, but compare it to history and you'll have to agree that things were much worse in our past. This is because the kingdom of Christ is growing and will eventually envelop the entire world, as prophesied.

Daniel 2:35
But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.

The Kingdom of Heaven won't be taking over anything... until "the stone the builders rejected" crushes the beast to powder, Matthew 21:44. Jesus tells us who this Beast is in this verse.

The past of Christianity is filled with Inquisition, aka Evangelism at the point of a sword... which created the opportunity which the enemy needed to take the Kindgom of God by force. Jesus warned us that they were already doing this, back in the day. There are always reasons why God says not to do things. In this case, thou shalt not kill and not calling a human your teacher, applies. Way back in Exodus, God told them not to make idols... and that's what we see the antichrist telling these people to do. Jesus warns us again in Revelation, where Jezebel teaches the saints idolotry by feeding them her doctrines. Jesus calls them the deep things of Satan.

 

[Ligurian]

The beast is the roman civilization

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

1-5 = five are fallen
6th = one is
7th = not yet come

The beast that was, and is not... at the time Revelation's written.

Who's one is... at the time Revelation's written? ... Answer: Rome.
Who was at the time Revelation's written: ........... Answer: anyone but Rome.
Who is not at the time Revelation's written? ......... Answer: anyone but Rome.

Please tell me if there's something wrong with my math.

 

[Chi.C]

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

1-5 = five are fallen
6th = one is
7th = not yet come

The beast that was, and is not... at the time Revelation's written.

Who's one is... at the time Revelation's written? ... Answer: Rome.
Who was at the time Revelation's written: ........... Answer: anyone but Rome.
Who is not at the time Revelation's written? ......... Answer: anyone but Rome.

Please tell me if there's something wrong with my math.

7 heads from Daniel - babylon, persia, macedon (Lysimachus), seleucid (Seleucus), levant/egypt(Ptolemy), greece (Cassander), rome.

5 heads that have fallen - babylon, persia, seleucid, levant/egypt, greece
one is - rome
one is yet to come - macedon (Constantinople - western Christian civilization)

 

[Timtofly]

Rome is the only one of the seven that cannot be the beast... since Rome's the kingdom that is at the time Revelation was written. If it can't be the kingdom when Revelation was written, then it must be... run by the little horn that has a short time... and is part of the 7.

This beast is made out of, at least, the Greece and Medo-Persian conquests, and it speaks like Babylon. Since Babylon can only be adulterous towards the Father of Jesus, she's the false mother of the people of the book. The false prophet comes up after the first beast, and is also of the people of the book. Babylon only becomes Babylon after she's deceived the nominal Christians who accept doctrines that aren't from Jesus... before that she's called Jezebel who teaches spiritual adultery to those who just aren't very careful of what they eat/believe. This Jezebel gets tossed upon a bed of adultery, and her believers go into great tribulation. Babylon and her children and the false prophet are collectively guilty of killing the witnesses of Jesus... the false prophet orders them to make an idol, and then they kill the prophets and saints.

So... maybe there is some truth to the saying that the world wandering after the beast is not the whole inhabited world... only about those with which God has had enough, already. But if it is about the whole wide world, which side of history will you be on? The ludicrous chronological-at-all-costs, or the common-sense model?

So you think the toes will never exist? Rome is the legs of iron. There still is a divided empire after Rome. You are the one stopping the prophecy before it is finished. Not me.

 

[Ligurian]

7 heads from Daniel - babylon, persia, macedon (Lysimachus), seleucid (Seleucus), levant/egypt(Ptolemy), greece (Cassander), rome.

5 heads that have fallen - babylon, persia, seleucid, levant/egypt, greece
one is - rome
one is yet to come - macedon (Constantinople - western Christian civilization)

Cassander never came to Israel; Alexander didn't come to damage Israel, but pay it homage. Symbolizing things that are not symbolic only muddies the water. When the words "like as" occur, it can either mean a simile or pretense. So...

The Lion of Nebuchadnezzer is the head of the statue and wore the clothing of a beast until he admitted that God was King of Kings, only then did he stand upon his feet and have his man's heart given back to him. This nails down the Lion. ... Persia is called both a bear and a ram, because she is both Medo-Persia and the Semites that stayed there, because Semite is always symbolized as sheep. This nails down the Bear. ... Greece is a Leopard in Daniel 7 which becomes a Goat in Daniel 8. Macedon was never Greek; it had successive overlords of Dorians then Slavics, then Turks.

But don't you really have to make all of the pieces fit?

Including everything pertaining to this woman hated by the 10 horns:

Jezekiel.23:22 Therefore, Ooliba, thus saith the Lord; Behold, I will stir up thy lovers against thee, from whom thy soul is alienated, and I will bring them upon thee round about, 23 the children of Babylon, and all the Chaldeans, Phacuc, and Sue, and Hychue, and all the sons of the Assyrians with them; choice young men, governors and captains, all princes and renowned, riding on horses. 24 And they all shall come upon thee from the north, chariots and wheels, with a multitude of nations, shields and targets; and the enemy shall set a watch against thee round about: and I will set judgment before them, and they shall take vengeance on thee with their judgments. 25 And I will bring upon thee my jealousy, and they shall deal with thee in great wrath: they shall take away thy nose and thine ears; and shall cast down thy remnant with the sword: they shall take thy sons and thy daughters; and thy remnant fire shall devour. 26 And they shall strip thee of thy raiment, and take away thine ornaments. 27 So I will turn back thine ungodliness from thee, and thy fornication from the land of Egypt: and thou shalt not lift up thine eyes upon them, and shalt no more remember Egypt. 28 Wherefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will deliver thee into the hands of those whom thou hatest, from whom thy soul is alienated. 29 And they shall deal with thee in hatred, and shall take all the fruits of thy labours and thy toils, and thou shalt be naked and bare: and the shame of thy fornication shall be exposed: and thy ungodliness and thy fornication 30 brought this upon thee, in that thou wentest a-whoring after the nations, and didst defile thyself with their devices."

Jezekiel.27 names the traders of this woman... they probably make up the rest of her merchant-kings.

Revelation.17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
Revelation.18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

____________
Last I heard, Christendom wasn't a trading nation. Some church-people are merchants and maybe even a "great men of the earth"... but they're lying to themselves if they think it's easy for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. If they're a church of Revelation, they'd be Laodicea... rich, having become rich, and in need of nothing. But Jesus stands outside that church, knocking to get in.

 

[Ligurian]

So you think the toes will never exist? Rome is the legs of iron. There still is a divided empire after Rome. You are the one stopping the prophecy before it is finished. Not me.

Division:

The earthenware is the seed of men, but the Iron is not man.

Daniel.2:43 Whereas thou sawest the iron mixed with earthenware, they shall be mingled with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave together, as the iron does not mix itself with earthenware.

Daniel.7:8 I noticed his horns, and behold, another little horn came up in the midst of them, and before it three of the former horns were rooted out: and, behold, there were eyes as the eyes of a man in this horn, and a mouth speaking great things.

"Eyes as the eyes of a man" So... is little horn human?

Rev.17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
Rev.12:12 Therefore rejoice, [ye] heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

 

[Chi.C]

Cassander never came to Israel; Alexander didn't come to damage Israel, but pay it homage. Symbolizing things that are not symbolic only muddies the water. When the words "like as" occur, it can either mean a simile or pretense. So...

The Lion of Nebuchadnezzer is the head of the statue and wore the clothing of a beast until he admitted that God was King of Kings, only then did he stand upon his feet and have his man's heart given back to him. This nails down the Lion. ... Persia is called both a bear and a ram, because she is both Medo-Persia and the Semites that stayed there, because Semite is always symbolized as sheep. This nails down the Bear. ... Greece is a Leopard in Daniel 7 which becomes a Goat in Daniel 8. Macedon was never Greek; it had successive overlords of Dorians then Slavics, then Turks.

But don't you really have to make all of the pieces fit?

The notion of the 4 heads are not created out of a vacuum. A more credentialed quote
Dan 7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
Benson Commentary Daniel 7:6 Commentaries: "After this I kept looking, and behold, another one, like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird; the beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it.
..The beast had also four heads — To denote the four kingdoms into which this same third kingdom should be divided, as it was after the death of Alexander, among his four captains; Cassander reigning over Macedon and Greece, Lysimachus over Thrace and Bithynia, Ptolemy over Egypt, and Seleucus over Syria...

Babylon - kidnapped Israel to babylon
Persia - freed/repatriated Israel from babylon
Grecia (Macedonia) - conquered Israel ~336 BC
Rome - ruled Israel ~57 BC

Ram of Persia - 2 Horns. Medes and Persians
Goat of Grecia - 1 tall horn then 4 horns
Dan 8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
From my perspective the 4 heads are well defined. If your interpretation is different, please cite the source - it sounds interesting.

As for all pieces fitting together... Please define what is a Prophecy and cite the source.

Including everything pertaining to this woman hated by the 10 horns:

Jezekiel.23:22 Therefore, Ooliba, thus saith the Lord; Behold, I will stir up thy lovers against thee, from whom thy soul is alienated, and I will bring them upon thee round about, 23 the children of Babylon, and all the Chaldeans, Phacuc, and Sue, and Hychue, and all the sons of the Assyrians with them; choice young men, governors and captains, all princes and renowned, riding on horses. 24 And they all shall come upon thee from the north, chariots and wheels, with a multitude of nations, shields and targets; and the enemy shall set a watch against thee round about: and I will set judgment before them, and they shall take vengeance on thee with their judgments. 25 And I will bring upon thee my jealousy, and they shall deal with thee in great wrath: they shall take away thy nose and thine ears; and shall cast down thy remnant with the sword: they shall take thy sons and thy daughters; and thy remnant fire shall devour. 26 And they shall strip thee of thy raiment, and take away thine ornaments. 27 So I will turn back thine ungodliness from thee, and thy fornication from the land of Egypt: and thou shalt not lift up thine eyes upon them, and shalt no more remember Egypt. 28 Wherefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will deliver thee into the hands of those whom thou hatest, from whom thy soul is alienated. 29 And they shall deal with thee in hatred, and shall take all the fruits of thy labours and thy toils, and thou shalt be naked and bare: and the shame of thy fornication shall be exposed: and thy ungodliness and thy fornication 30 brought this upon thee, in that thou wentest a-whoring after the nations, and didst defile thyself with their devices."

Jezekiel.27 names the traders of this woman... they probably make up the rest of her merchant-kings.

The ten horns are the ten commandments.
In the days of the beast - the ten commandments (a proto-Christian belief) will stabilize the army and their society
Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

In the Days of the Jesus - those who follow the 12 will not stumble
John 11:7-9 Then after that saith he to his disciples, Let us go into Judaea again. His disciples say unto him, Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee; and goest thou thither again? Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.

The harlot is the unfaithful/foolish in contrast with the Bride.

Revelation.17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
Revelation.18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

____________
Last I heard, Christendom wasn't a trading nation. Some church-people are merchants and maybe even a "great men of the earth"... but they're lying to themselves if they think it's easy for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. If they're a church of Revelation, they'd be Laodicea... rich, having become rich, and in need of nothing. But Jesus stands outside that church, knocking to get in.

State religion permits the nations to coalesce without internal conflict. No internal conflicts permit externalization of power (be it hard or soft power). Externalization of power permits trade (be it colonies, free trade, mercantilistic ...) which creates a uber-class.

Jesus wishes something different.

 

[Freedm]

A lot of people do not believe that Daniel's prophecies have been fulfilled, so that argument is not settled at all. The verses you cite are the key few words to truly support a preterist view, and who besides God really knows what God himself considers near or soon? We are talking about the omnipresent, omnipotent creator of the entire universe that has lived forever and will continue living forever. What is the ratio of 40,000 years divided by infinity? How is that different than the 4 minutes divided by infinity? Both numbers are zero. It doesn't matter what we think of as short or near, because it was the Lord talking in these passages, not humans who had a beginning and only live a truly "short" period of time by divine measures of infinity.

Even if you take the position that the prophecies of Daniel have not been fulfilled, you're still then left with a prophecy that "must soon take place" and a prophecy that "concerns the distant future". If the "soon" prophecy is in our near future, then how far away do you suppose Daniel's prophecies are? Surely there's a large gap between "soon" and "distant future", so if you believe both are still in our future then we must not be very near the end of time at all.

 

[Ligurian]

The ten horns are the ten commandments.

Daniel.11:36 And he shall do according to his will, and the king shall exalt and magnify himself against every god, and shall speak great swelling words, and shall prosper until the indignation shall be accomplished: for it is coming to an end. 37 And he shall not regard any gods of his fathers, nor the desire of women, neither shall he regard any deity: for he shall magnify himself above all. 38 And he shall honour the god of forces on his place: and a god whom his fathers knew not he shall honour with gold, and silver, and precious stones, and desirable things. 39 And he shall do thus in the strong places of refuge with a strange god, and shall increase his glory: and he shall subject many to them, and shall distribute the land in gifts.LXX

Daniel.7:8 I noticed his horns, and behold, another little horn came up in the midst of them, and before it three of the former horns were rooted out: and, behold, there were eyes as the eyes of a man in this horn, and a mouth speaking great things.LXX

Revelation.17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall devour her flesh, and burn her with fire.KJV

At the time of the fall of Babylon, how many horns were on the beast?

The notion of the 4 heads are not created out of a vacuum. A more credentialed quote
Dan 7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
Benson Commentary Daniel 7:6 Commentaries: "After this I kept looking, and behold, another one, like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird; the beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it.
..The beast had also four heads — To denote the four kingdoms into which this same third kingdom should be divided, as it was after the death of Alexander, among his four captains; Cassander reigning over Macedon and Greece, Lysimachus over Thrace and Bithynia, Ptolemy over Egypt, and Seleucus over Syria...

Babylon - kidnapped Israel to babylon
Persia - freed/repatriated Israel from babylon
Grecia (Macedonia) - conquered Israel ~336 BC
Rome - ruled Israel ~57 BC

Ram of Persia - 2 Horns. Medes and Persians
Goat of Grecia - 1 tall horn then 4 horns
Dan 8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
From my perspective the 4 heads are well defined. If your interpretation is different, please cite the source - it sounds interesting.

As for all pieces fitting together... Please define what is a Prophecy and cite the source.


The ten horns are the ten commandments.
In the days of the beast - the ten commandments (a proto-Christian belief) will stabilize the army and their society
Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

In the Days of the Jesus - those who follow the 12 will not stumble
John 11:7-9 Then after that saith he to his disciples, Let us go into Judaea again. His disciples say unto him, Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee; and goest thou thither again? Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.

The harlot is the unfaithful/foolish in contrast with the Bride.


State religion permits the nations to coalesce without internal conflict. No internal conflicts permit externalization of power (be it hard or soft power). Externalization of power permits trade (be it colonies, free trade, mercantilistic ...) which creates a uber-class.

Jesus wishes something different.

Jesus quotes the Septuagint.

Daniel.7:6 After this one I looked, and behold another wild beast as a leopard, and it had four wings of a bird upon it: and the wild beast had four heads, and power was given to it.LXX
Daniel.8:5 And I was considering, and, behold, a he-goat came from the south-west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the earth: and the goat had a horn between his eyes.LXX

Was it "a wild beast as a leopard", or "a he-goat"? Were Syriac and Hebrew really that different? In the first quote, Daniel is with the Chaldees; in the second quote, Daniel's in Elam. "As a leopard" is either a simile or a leopard-mask... like overlords learning the language and re-name themselves. ... We know what goat signifies in the Bible. The bear turns into a ram in those chapters. The obvious conclusion to be drawn is a war between gentiles and semites... which is the whole point of the beast's dogma... he's apparently forgetting that proselytized-Persians became semites in the eyes of the world, just like when the Maccabees proselytized Edom, and Josephus calls them none other than Jews.

Does any of this matter to the end times? (shrug) maybe. But we know that endtime "Greece" is ruled by the harlot, because Greece is one of the harlot's merchants in Jezekiel. And we also know that the fourth beast is altogether different from the beasts that came before it. And this cannot apply to the spin-offs of Greece:

Daniel.7:7 After this one I looked, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and exceedingly strong, and its teeth were of iron; devouring and crushing to atoms, and it trampled the remainder with its feet: and it was altogether different from the beasts that were before it; and it had ten hours. 8 I noticed his horns, and behold, another little horn came up in the midst of them, and before it three of the former horns were rooted out: and, behold, there were eyes as the eyes of a man in this horn, and a mouth speaking great things.

____________
If you don't first find out who the harlot is, you will never make sense of the rest. It's like this log-jamb was specifically created to snare the people who don't want to look too closely at the harlot.

 

[Chi.C]

Daniel.11:36 And he shall do according to his will, and the king shall exalt and magnify himself against every god, and shall speak great swelling words, and shall prosper until the indignation shall be accomplished: for it is coming to an end. 37 And he shall not regard any gods of his fathers, nor the desire of women, neither shall he regard any deity: for he shall magnify himself above all. 38 And he shall honour the god of forces on his place: and a god whom his fathers knew not he shall honour with gold, and silver, and precious stones, and desirable things. 39 And he shall do thus in the strong places of refuge with a strange god, and shall increase his glory: and he shall subject many to them, and shall distribute the land in gifts.LXX

Daniel.7:8 I noticed his horns, and behold, another little horn came up in the midst of them, and before it three of the former horns were rooted out: and, behold, there were eyes as the eyes of a man in this horn, and a mouth speaking great things.LXX

Revelation.17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall devour her flesh, and burn her with fire.KJV

At the time of the fall of Babylon, how many horns were on the beast?

Daniel saw the future with eyes of a jew - 8 horns. John was in the future of Daniel and saw the entire history through the eyes of a Christian - 10 horns.

Jesus quotes the Septuagint.

Daniel.7:6 After this one I looked, and behold another wild beast as a leopard, and it had four wings of a bird upon it: and the wild beast had four heads, and power was given to it.LXX
Daniel.8:5 And I was considering, and, behold, a he-goat came from the south-west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the earth: and the goat had a horn between his eyes.LXX

Was it "a wild beast as a leopard", or "a he-goat"? Were Syriac and Hebrew really that different? In the first quote, Daniel is with the Chaldees; in the second quote, Daniel's in Elam. "As a leopard" is either a simile or a leopard-mask... like overlords learning the language and re-name themselves. ... We know what goat signifies in the Bible. The bear turns into a ram in those chapters. The obvious conclusion to be drawn is a war between gentiles and semites... which is the whole point of the beast's dogma... he's apparently forgetting that proselytized-Persians became semites in the eyes of the world, just like when the Maccabees proselytized Edom, and Josephus calls them none other than Jews.

It is both. 2 visions - 2 contexts.
1st as wild beast leopard - empire from the sea - all things with no kinship to God.
2nd as kosher animal - Jewish legend - Alexander dreamt of the high Priest before their meeting Alexander the Great "The face of the Jewish High Priest, he said, was the face of the angel he saw in his dreams. That was why he bowed down to him."
Also Alexander's teacher was Aristotle that prove the God Hypothesis thru metaphysics

Also ram - persia - Cyrus was called the messiah of the jewish people. The magi of Bethlehem (magi is a tribe of medes).

The kosher animals indicates that they were probably Divinely Inspired.

Does any of this matter to the end times? (shrug) maybe. But we know that endtime "Greece" is ruled by the harlot, because Greece is one of the harlot's merchants in Jezekiel. And we also know that the fourth beast is altogether different from the beasts that came before it. And this cannot apply to the spin-offs of Greece:

The seven heads are well defined (Book of Daniel). Based on the notion that Daniel must be a Rosetta stone for Revelation then the ingredients decides the recipe. The only head based on Constantine is thrace/macedon/lysimachus - the byzantine empire - inheritors of roman civilization

Daniel.7:7 After this one I looked, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and exceedingly strong, and its teeth were of iron; devouring and crushing to atoms, and it trampled the remainder with its feet: and it was altogether different from the beasts that were before it; and it had ten hours. 8 I noticed his horns, and behold, another little horn came up in the midst of them, and before it three of the former horns were rooted out: and, behold, there were eyes as the eyes of a man in this horn, and a mouth speaking great things.

The vision of Daniel = 4th beast with 8 horns (10 horns - 3 uprooted + 1 stout/chief). The Revelation beast is also composite of all 4 beasts of the Daniel. The vision of Revelation - beast with 10 horns and harlot sitting on it . Why 10 horns vs 8? Because of context, Daniel was a jew and the Mosaic Covenant is King. John was a Christian - he will not see the Law, John saw it as nothing to see except a descriptor. Romans 10:4 "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes". Daniel saw the Law of Moses violated.

____________
If you don't first find out who the harlot is, you will never make sense of the rest. It's like this log-jamb was specifically created to snare the people who don't want to look too closely at the harlot.

Consider the harlot. She is a woman. She curries favour for money. She easily sacrifices martyrs. She adorns herself with blood of martyrs. She is state religion to the true Bride of Christ - the Faithful.

 

[Ligurian]

John was in the future of Daniel and saw the entire history through the eyes of a Christian - 10 horns.

John is Galilean... so John saw the future with the eyes of a member of the lost tribes of the house of Israel... aka the 10-north-tribes. God gave the prophecies to be understood by the sheep that hear His voice. And when they refuse to listen, the prophecy becomes a witness against them.

Jewish legend - Alexander dreamt of the high Priest before their meeting Alexander the Great "The face of the Jewish High Priest, he said, was the face of the angel he saw in his dreams. That was why he bowed down to him."
Also Alexander's teacher was Aristotle that prove the God Hypothesis thru metaphysics

By Jewish legend you meant only Josephus. Alexander deified himself, didn't he?

Also ram - persia - Cyrus was called the messiah of the jewish people. The magi of Bethlehem (magi is a tribe of medes).

The Magi connected to Cyrus are what Lenormant calls the Chaldean Magic.
Many tie that mess to Kabbalah, Zoroaster and Shamanism.

John was a Christian - he will not see the Law,

John learned the Kingdom Gospel from Jesus

Matt.5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law,
or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass,
one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.KJV
fulfill = pleroo, to make replete, stuffed full.
fulfilled = ginomai, generate, come into being, come to pass.

Rev.21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth:
for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away;
and there was no more sea.

Matthew.28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying,
All authority is given unto Me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and disciple all nations, baptizing them
in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:
and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world.

Consider the harlot. She is a woman.

The Woman Is That Great City

Revelation.17:9 And here [is] the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. … 15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. … 18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

 

[Chi.C]

John is Galilean... so John saw the future with the eyes of a member of the lost tribes of the house of Israel... aka the 10-north-tribes. God gave the prophecies to be understood by the sheep that hear His voice. And when they refuse to listen, the prophecy becomes a witness against them.

The kingdom of Israel ended way before rome was a twinkle in satan's eye. 10 tribes are related to the "Israel trigger" (reason for the visions) but they don't relate to the beast rome of Daniel or John.
I agree the Book of Revelation is prophecy for the faithful. As per the name, it reveals to the 7 churches the future, purpose of their suffering, and the subsequent end of history. John is encouraging the father churches to endure with resolve and repent to God.

By Jewish legend you meant only Josephus. Alexander deified himself, didn't he?

The Magi connected to Cyrus are what Lenormant calls the Chaldean Magic.
Many tie that mess to Kabbalah, Zoroaster and Shamanism.

As per the reference, it mentions the talmud. I do not study talmudic texts, thus legend. Whether Josephus mention it, of that I am not aware.
Yes, Alexander self-deified. As with most of kings. Silly pagan beliefs and notions abound. Even today. Par for the course. However, kingdoms and empires are under Divine Sovereignty. God may use them as at His Discretion - consider Chaldeans as per Habakkuk 1:5-11.
My contention is the horns signify empowerment from the God to fulfill Divine Purpose, namely Punishment.

John learned the Kingdom Gospel from Jesus

Matt.5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law,
or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass,
one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.KJV
fulfill = pleroo, to make replete, stuffed full.
fulfilled = ginomai, generate, come into being, come to pass.

Rev.21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth:
for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away;
and there was no more sea.

Matthew.28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying,
All authority is given unto Me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and disciple all nations, baptizing them
in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:
and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world.

True, the Law is fulfilled by the teachings Jesus. But as a Christian, the Law is not "necessary" as the Commandments of Jesus covers them. Consider the description below.

The Law is for the lawless
1 Timothy 1:8-11 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

The Greatest Commandments of Jesus preclude the Law.
Mark 12:28-34 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. 34And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

Daniel the inheritor of the Law saw the Law in a different light. He was greatly disturbed.
Dan 7:28 Hitherto is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart.

John, the disciple of Jesus with a Spiritual Temple, saw the Law in its proper place. There to prevent the unfaithful from eating the Faithful.

The Woman Is That Great City

Revelation.17:9 And here [is] the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. … 15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. … 18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

The harlot is allegory. As the devil is unimaginative, <he mirrors the symbols of God>
he tries to undo the works of God by breaking their symmetry.
harlot // bride
babylon // Jerusalem
horns // (mother's) crown of stars
Though rome has 7 hills, I think they are referring to the 7 heads of the dragon. The problem of heresy against God is bigger than the roman catholicism.

 

[Ligurian]

The kingdom of Israel ended way before rome was a twinkle in satan's eye.

Matthew.4:12 Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, He departed into Galilee; 13 And leaving Nazareth, He came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim: 14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, 15 The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, [by] the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles; 16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up. 17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

Matthew.10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

Jeremias.18:1 The word that came from the Lord to 2 Jeremias, saying, Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there thou shalt hear my words. 3 So I went down to the potter’s house, and behold, he was making a vessel on the stones. 4 And the vessel which he was making with his hands fell: so he made it again another vessel, as it seemed good to him to make it. 5 And the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 6 Shall I not be able, O house of Israel, to do to you as this potter? behold, as the clay of the potter are ye in my hands.

Esaias 65:8 Thus saith the Lord, As a grape-stone shall be found in the cluster, and they shall say, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for the sake of him that serves me, for his sake I will not destroy them all. 9 And I will lead forth the seed that came of Jacob and of Juda, and they shall inherit My holy mountain: and mine elect and my servants shall inherit it, and shall dwell there. ... 15 For ye shall leave your name for a loathing to My chosen, and the Lord shall destroy you: but My servants shall be called by a new name, 16 which shall be blessed on the earth; for they shall bless the true God: and they that swear upon the earth shall swear by the true God; for they shall forget the former affliction, it shall not come into their mind.

My contention is the horns signify empowerment from the God to fulfill Divine Purpose, namely Punishment.

Matthew.4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth Him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9 And saith unto Him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

True, the Law is fulfilled by the teachings Jesus. But as a Christian, the Law is not "necessary" as the Commandments of Jesus covers them. Consider the description below.

Doing works without law will have Jesus saying He never knew you.
Jesus restates the ordinances written in stone,
and holds men accountable for keeping them by Jesus' authority.

Matthew 22:37 and Matthew 19:17
1. Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart,
and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. (1st - 4th commandments)
2. Thou shalt do no murder, (6th)
3. Thou shalt not commit adultery, (7th)
4. Thou shalt not steal, (8th & 10th)
5. Thou shalt not bear false witness, (9th)
6. Honour thy father and mother, (5th)
and Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

When Jesus says "But I say unto you..." He makes the law even more strict, by judging the heart before the action occurs. Calling someone a fool may earn you hellfire... and is equal to murder. Controlling the man this way, cleanses from the inside out... not just whitewashing the pot, like those viper-Pharisees.

What Jesus did say makes the sacrificial system... which, oddly enough, paid the priests for the sins of man, and only the rich people could afford to be sinful... be replaced by "God will have mercy and not sacrifice". Because all through the Prophets we see that same theme... God desires not the death of the cattle on a thousand hills because these cattle belong to Him... and it's kind of an insult to offer back to God a completely degraded version of a living creature... and God cares for the sparrow and also for the cattle. They have chosen their own ways, is what Esaias 66 says. In fact, like they chose the kings of the nations around them, they chose the sacrificial system like the nations around them. They didn't want to be separate and called out.

So the whole letter of the Hebrews is kind of a sick joke. They act for all the world as though God set up that sacrificial system, when really, it all happened because they were afraid of God in the fire, and asked to have Moses mediate. And so the face-to-face worship of God became an altar of earth, an altar of stone, an altar of dressed stones, steps to raise the priestly altar above peons, and linen breeches to hide the nakedness of the priests... when in reality, they were all naked because they chose ritual over walking with God in the cool of the evening.

The harlot is allegory. As the devil is unimaginative, <he mirrors the symbols of God>
he tries to undo the works of God by breaking their symmetry.
harlot // bride
babylon // Jerusalem
horns // (mother's) crown of stars
Though rome has 7 hills, I think they are referring to the 7 heads of the dragon. The problem of heresy against God is bigger than the roman catholicism.

The prophets say the harlot is a real city

Rev.17:5 And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev.11:8 And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev.18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Matthew.23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!

Esaias 1:1 The vision which Esaias the son of Amos saw, which he saw against Juda, and against Jerusalem ... 21 How has the faithful city Sion, once full of judgment, become a harlot! wherein righteousness lodged, but now murderers. 22 Your silver is worthless, thy wine merchants mix the wine with water. 23 Thy princes are rebellious, companions of thieves, loving bribes, seeking after rewards; not pleading for orphans, and not heeding the cause of widows.LXX

Jezekiel.16:1 Moreover the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 2 Son of man, testify to Jerusalem of her iniquities ... 35 Therefore, harlot, hear the word of the Lord: 36 Thus saith the Lord, Because thou hast poured forth thy money, therefore thy shame shall be discovered in thy harlotry with thy lovers, and with regard to all the imaginations of thine iniquities, and for the blood of thy children which thou hast given to them. 37 Therefore, behold, I will gather all thy lovers with whom thou hast consorted, and all whom thou hast loved, with all whom thou didst hate; and I will gather them against thee round about, and will expose thy wickedness to them, and they shall see all thy shame. 38 And I will be avenged on thee with the vengeance of an adulteress, and I will bring upon thee blood of fury and jealousy. 39 And I will deliver thee into their hands, and they shall break down thy house of harlotry, and destroy thine high place; and they shall strip thee of thy garments, and shall take thy proud ornaments, and leave thee naked and bare. 40 And they shall bring multitudes upon thee, and they shall stone thee with stones, and pierce thee with their swords. 41 And they shall burn thine houses with fire, and shall execute vengeance on thee in the sight of many women: and I will turn thee back from harlotry, and I will no more give thee rewards.LXX

Revelation.17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall devour her flesh, and burn her with fire.

In other words, the nations that Jerusalem did her harlotry with are the 10 horns which are 10 kings who have power with the beast for one hour, including Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome. Odd that Assyria didn't show up in that statue of Daniel's isn't it? Since Assyria built Tyre, and they seem to be the northern nations called Gog/Magog of the latter years. But Assyria pretty much owned what used to belong to Greece when Josephus said Lydia was Lud... but earliest Lydia never spoke Semitic. Conquested nations shouldn't figure into Gen.10 theory.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Even if you take the position that the prophecies of Daniel have not been fulfilled, you're still then left with a prophecy that "must soon take place" and a prophecy that "concerns the distant future". If the "soon" prophecy is in our near future, then how far away do you suppose Daniel's prophecies are? Surely there's a large gap between "soon" and "distant future", so if you believe both are still in our future then we must not be very near the end of time at all.

I'm trying really hard to see the Preterism (and Idealism) points of view, but its getting harder and harder the more I study Scripture (and seminary papers, books on eschatology, bible commentaries, and other library tools I have bought my 35 years of being a Christian) because the weight of the evidence seems on the side of Futurism, and the bible study class I'm in are all coming to the same conclusion. And yes, we also think that the end is very near. A local pastor I watch and used to attend church before I became disabled recently said he thinks the antichrist is alive right now. And this senior pastor who has planted a dozen churches in our area and is still growing them has never in all the years I've attended or watched remotely ever suggested that the time was so imminent. For Pastor Rusty to say this just last week is rather astonishing and also compelling.

 

[Freedm]

I'm trying really hard to see the Preterism (and Idealism) points of view, but its getting harder and harder the more I study Scripture (and seminary papers, books on eschatology, bible commentaries, and other library tools I have bought my 35 years of being a Christian) because the weight of the evidence seems on the side of Futurism, and the bible study class I'm in are all coming to the same conclusion. And yes, we also think that the end is very near. A local pastor I watch and used to attend church before I became disabled recently said he thinks the antichrist is alive right now. And this senior pastor who has planted a dozen churches in our area and is still growing them has never in all the years I've attended or watched remotely ever suggested that the time was so imminent. For Pastor Rusty to say this just last week is rather astonishing and also compelling.

I get it. Futurism is all around. I grew up with it myself, and believed in it until recently. I feel like my eyes were finally opened.

So my post you quoted asked about Daniel's prophecy which was "for the distant future". If you believe the antichrist is now alive, that must mean you believe all the events of Revelation are now near, as in "they must soon take place". So in light of that, when do you believe the events of Daniel 8, which concern "the distant future" will take place?

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

I get it. Futurism is all around. I grew up with it myself, and believed in it until recently. I feel like my eyes were finally opened.

So my post you quoted asked about Daniel's prophecy which was "for the distant future". If you believe the antichrist is now alive, that must mean you believe all the events of Revelation are now near, as in "they must soon take place". So in light of that, when do you believe the events of Daniel 8, which concern "the distant future" will take place?

I don't know for sure what it means, but 2030-2033 AD is somehow involved. Whether it is the beginning, mid point, pre-wrath, or post trib rapture, all are possible but it has to be significant in some form or fashion. I did quite a bit of research and came up with the same date.
1) 2000 years after the resurrection of the Lord is 2030-2033 AD.
2) A generation shall not pass - if you add the life expectancy of a modern Israeli living today to the year the UN made Israel a nation again post WW2, you also get 2030-2033 AD.
3) The next solar eclipse visible in Jerusalem (the sun will be dark and the moon will not give off its light or appear blood red) occurs in 2030 AD.

I think I mentioned being in a 5 year bible study group and we have spent the last 3 months in Revelation Chapter 1-5, and this week we covered Daniel because my Bible Knowledge Commentary said we needed to answer 5 questions before we moved to Chapter 6 or Revelation, and one of those 5 questions involved Daniel, so we went thru the major parts of Daniel related to the 4 views (Daniel chapters 2, 7, 9, 11 and 12). Note we are using Steve Gregg's "4 Views of Revelation" that is a parallel commentary that presents like Revelation 5:1-2 then gives each of the 4 views of Preterism, Historicism, Futurism, and Idealism, and every week we find some truth in each of those 4 views. Our senior most lady in the group who is in her late 70's said when we started this study of Revelation she didn't think the time was near, but after 5 chapters of Revelation and Daniel, she now believes the time is near. Always curious about other faiths, I went to see what those of the Muslim faith were thinking and I found they think the data on earthquakes is conclusive that the end is near. It said something like the same number of earthquakes happened from 1200 AD to 1900 AD, then slightly more from 1900-2000 AD, and now in 2021 there has been an almost equal number of around 300 earthquakes, but the time is getting compressed from 700 years to 100 years to 21 years for the same number of earthquakes.

I also learned this week that the Catholic bible has 2 books in Daniel that the protestants don't have (Daniel chapters 13 and 14) and that the Jewish bible has Daniel in it but not as a prophet and puts it into what they call "writings" like Psalms.