Mark of the Beast, the matrix, and your job!

[Endtime Survivors]

My main question is, why's the guy afraid to show his face??
Psalm118:6 kjv

Good question! Please see this article for a full explanation.
http://endtimesurvivors.com/teachings/practical-survival-information/38-why-do-we-hide-our-faces

 

[Endtime Survivors]

The Scriptural examples may be best, and permitted.
If anyone has a shirt, extra, and sees someone in need, and does not give it to them.
If anyone has food, even barely enough, and sees someone with no food, hungry with no resources, and refuses to share.
If anyone has houses, and knows brethren who are homeless, and turns them away.
If anyone has a car, and sees brethren who needs a ride, and ignores them as if they were not there.
Like the religous leaders, teachers, lawyers, WHO WALKED BY ON THE OTHER SIDE of the path, INSTEAD of helping the man who had been beaten and left bleeding and unable to recover by himself.

Thanks, Jeff. You're one of the few people I've seen to give such an objective answer to the question. Usually, it's one of the most difficult questions to answer because we all struggle with the love of money to some degree. The examples you've described would include just about any Christian in the world but neither do I think every person can be fairly judged by the same circumstances.

Jesus gave some pretty specific instructions on how we should deal with greed. He said we should stop working for money and instead start working for working for love; that God will take care of any who seek his kingdom first. He said that we should forsake all we have, share it with the poor, and go into all the world to preach the gospel. He lived communally, with his disciples and the early church lived communally together, sharing all things in common according to each person's need.

These teachings are the answer both to the Mark and to the worldly economic system in general. God may call some of us to help orphans there, help widows here, go and preach the gospel there, abound here, be abased there etc, but the bottom line in all these various ways that God may lead us must still be based on the foundation of Jesus' teachings; forsake all, share with our brothers, work for God's kingdom, preach the gospel.

The Great Tribulation will be one of the most difficult periods in history, but for those of us heeding the warnings and seriously challenging our own dependence on materialism will be in a much better place to be an effective witness. When the Mark comes in we won't be caught in a fit of panic. We won't just crawl off into the gutters to starve. We will be listening and acting according to God's will because we are not dependent on the system to determine what we can or can't afford to do.

 

[LastSeven]

But what if we really are living in the last days?

According to Peter, he lived in the last days and those last days were marked by the spirit being poured out.

Acts 2
These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17 “‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.

And according to Hebrews 1, the "last days" are those days after which Jesus first appeared.

Hebrews 1
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

We are living in the last days. We have been for the last 2000 years.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

We are living in the last days. We have been for the last 2000 years.

Yup, and we're commanded to watch. Watch for what?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

that God will take care of any who seek his kingdom first. He said that we should forsake all we have, share it with the poor, and go into all the world to preach the gospel. He lived communally, with his disciples and the early church lived communally together, sharing all things in common according to each person's need.

YHWH has all along PROVIDED everything generously for everyone. HE CREATED the world GENEROUSLY - all the needs of everyone planned and provided for since BEFORE CREATION.
Y'SHUA'S example and training and teaching is neglected TODAY.
The secret of the Anabaptist , same as the believers immersed in Y'SHUA in ACTS, EPHESIANS, CORINTH, (thru NT),
was simple. Two Words: Follow Jesus.
'Christians' often never see an example, and are never taught, to follow Jesus, so they don't. They follow religion.

We won't just crawl off into the gutters to starve. We will be listening and acting according to God's will because we are not dependent on the system to determine what we can or can't afford to do.

RE "crawl off.... to starve"
Many [Christians, true ekklesia] do starve TODAY/ for the last several centuries.
They are not allowed jobs, homes, or friends (anyone who befriends them and is CAUGHT is either executed or also made to lose everything and thus lose their home and friends and starve themselves. )

The best example for here, that I've heard of, was during WWII:
the exiles, refugees from occupied territories
were walking with nothing but the clothes on their back
AWAY from the destruction and violence and slaughter (or they'd be killed).

They made their way across Poland hiding in the woods, staying off the main roads, staying out of sight, and moving usually only at night.
They would stay , as they could, next to the tree line so they could remain in cover from being seen or duck quickly back into the woods as needed.

Along the tree line, as they had no source for food and no way to obtain any,
there was an occasional house inhabited by someone who was not on the run.

The travelers would need to knock on the door/ engage the occupants of the house for assistance ,
and if the occupants were friendly, a meal was provided, and water.

Sometimes the occupants , whether they provided assistance or not,
would alert the authorities (for the reward money)
and turn in the travelers to be executed.

It was a very difficult time for believers and unbelievers both.

It is happening TODAY in american cities, all across the country.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

They follow religion.

We all do this to some degree. The question is, how do we break out of following religion, or guard against it? I see you've suggested the very simple answer of "follow Jesus", to which I whole heartedly agree, but even there the answer isn't so simple if we ask, "what does it mean to follow Jesus"?

When I look at Jesus' teachings I find that for the most part they focus heavily on smashing pride, viciously confronting greed, ignoring the desire for respectability, challenging emotional, familial, friendship-oriented relationships, dying to self, dying to the world, falling on the stone and being broken etc. On the surface they come across as some of the most unattractive teachings of any religion but also the most fulfilling and satisfying one we get over the initial shock of letting go.

RE "crawl off.... to starve"
Many [Christians, true ekklesia] do starve TODAY/ for the last several centuries.
They are not allowed jobs, homes, or friends (anyone who befriends them and is CAUGHT is either executed or also made to lose everything and thus lose their home and friends and starve themselves. )

You're right. There are a lot of Christians suffering around the world today, and there have been all throughout history, I suppose. My comments were dealing specifically with the Great Tribulation and the fairly common perspective that Christians who refuse the Mark basically condemn themselves to a miserable death. That could be true in some cases and it's something we really should be prepared for, but I don't think God wants us to just curl up and die, either. We're supposed to be a witness in that time and I think God will give us what we need to make that happen, even if we end up dying as part of that witness.

It is happening TODAY in american cities, all across the country.

I wasn't aware of that. Could you give some examples?

 

[daughterofthemosthigh7]

Good question! Please see this article for a full explanation.
http://endtimesurvivors.com/teachings/practical-survival-information/38-why-do-we-hide-our-faces

I did... And just trying to figure out where it says in the Bible as ambassadors of Christ and His Kingdom we are to disguise ourselves or hide our faces... ?
2 Timothy 3:5 KJV

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The question is, how do we break out of following religion, or guard against it?

Easy or Hard, depending on how much someone is desperate for TRUTH.

"what does it mean to follow Jesus"?

See "The Secret of the Anabaptist" pdf format free online. OR/and
read ACTS, et al. all the while praying to YHWH seeking HIM constantly all day and all night.

My comments were dealing specifically with the Great Tribulation and the fairly common perspective that Christians who refuse the Mark basically condemn themselves to a miserable death. That could be true in some cases and it's something we really should be prepared for, but I don't think God wants us to just curl up and die, either.

Whenever Y'SHUA called someone, HE called them to die. Remember the examples of Scripture - did they die a miserable death? Did they draw back from being stoned to death, from being arrested, beated, chained in prison to stone walls ? No. They accepted it gladly, knowing their home is not in this life.
Christians who refuse the mark (the force, the direction, the acceptance or promotion of) today, are kicked out of any group they were in. Religious or Non-religious doesn't matter.

I wasn't aware of that. Could you give some examples?

No.

YHWH willing, if you watch broadcast news a while,(pray always, and always read the BIBLE more - the BIBLE is KEY) you will see. (remember do not believe what anything broadcast is promoting; just every now and then you'll see a report of .... well... how followers of Y'SHA are being treated.

And just trying to figure out where it says in the Bible as ambassadors of Christ and His Kingdom we are to disguise ourselves or hide our faces... ?

THere are / were a few times, a few examples in SCRIPTURE. Y'SHUA sometimes, and Tamar is the only one I remember at the moment.
TODAY? There are FREQUENT warnings from police/ authorities/ NOT to publish any personal information on the internet or smartphones/media.
Notice they grey/blur out people's faces on many video recordings of news reports ?
Many doctors refuse to have any internet presence at all due to big brother.
And the true assemblies of ekklesia don't seek any publicity because Y'SHUA says not to.

 

[LastSeven]

The root of all evil wasn't on your list. I think that is significant, especially considering the purpose of the Mark deals directly with money.

So you pick out the least important part of my post and respond to that but you have no response to any of my points regarding the impossibility of a physical mark?

 

[daughterofthemosthigh7]

At this point in time good luck hiding from big brother! virtually impossible-- and sorry, but I respectfully ( ...but 4 real!) DISAGREE.

 

[Bethany311]

I recently heard a theory I'd never heard before concerning the "mark," and it seemed to fit with scriptures perfectly. I was surprised it wasn't more well known.

Here is a question I'd like to seriously pose: Is there any reason why the mark of the beast couldn't have been something that has already happened in the past?

Revelation 12:3 & 4 reads, "And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast; they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?”"

What if the "whole earth" in this scripture refers to the whole known earth at that time? In other words, excluding parts of the world not yet discovered? What if the antichrist is a ruler and leader that has already come and gone in history, with signs and wonders that made the whole known world stand in awe, and the spirit of the antichrist is left as a presence on the earth? Even Jesus referred to the "spirit of the antichrist..."

Revelation 13: 16 & 17 reads, "And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name."

The idea I heard put forth is that the mark could be a symbol of war... such as a coat of arms or insignia. Therefore it would be possible that all who wage war alongside this antichrist-type leader and follow him have the mark on their hand - their right hand being the hand that holds the sword - and/ or their forehead - a place where an symbol may grace a helmet or head armor.

When I first heard this idea, I was fascinated. I am still questioning and curious if this could be the reality of the mark, and that it has already come.

 

[LastSeven]

I think it's more likely that the mark has always been here, and is still here, and that it's a spiritual mark, however, your idea is not crazy and I think it's good to think outside the box.

 

[Psalm3704]

Here is a question I'd like to seriously pose: Is there any reason why the mark of the beast couldn't have been something that has already happened in the past?

It actually did back in the Garden of Eden when Adam chose to sin against God, Adam apostated.

The mark of the beast is not what condemns people to hell, it's their allegiance to the beast, their greed, their decision to follow satan over God. The mark is merely used to identify to one's faith (worship the beast and his image: Revelation 14:9-11) and as a follower so they can buy and sell.

God doesn't condemn people for putting a RFID chip in their body for medical purposes and health benefits. People have been putting things on and in their bodies for centuries or millenniums, anything from an artificial heart and organs to metal plates and screws to tattoos to tracking devices to whatever hundreds of other items placed on or in the body.

It's all based on one's freewill, who they wish to believe and obey. Adam and Eve were the first two people to perform an act in obedience to satan, and they instantly died a spiritual death as a result.








.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Hi Bethany. Thanks for sharing your comments. What you described in your post sounds like a "preterist" point of view. They believe, to varying degrees, that either part or all of the Revelation has already been fulfilled. They will cite a volcanic eruption as the "mountain falling into the sea" as fulfillment of the first four trumpets of the Tribulation. They'll cite a particularly nasty and cruel dictator as the Anti-Christ. They'll cite some ritualistic observance or tradition of slave trade as the Mark of the Beast ( I once heard someone seriously suggest that the mark of identification which was used on slaves in the Roman era was the Mark of the Beast and a cruel dictator named Nero was the Anti Christ.

The problem with all these theories is that the Revelation is not a loose assortment of events which happens throughout time. The events in the Revelation all have specific themes and timelines which relate to one another within that time line. There is the Mark and the Anti Christ, two of the most popular themes. But there is all the two witnesses, the 144, 000, the stinging locust-like things, the army of 200 million which spreads across the earth, the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem, and the destruction of Babylon (a "great city" which is famous for it's greed and which destruction makes way for the Anti Christ to take control of the world).

There is no point in history where all these events can said to have taken place in a way in which they relate to one another and within the time frames listed by the Revelation. The Revelation talks about a period of 3.5 years, 42, months, and 1260 days, all of which equate to the same length of time. It does this to avoid any confusion, as though to make it absolutely clear that this period of 3.5 years is important and it is fixed.

The idea I heard put forth that the mark could be a symbol of war... such as a coat of arms or insignia. Therefore it would be possible that all who wage war alongside this antichrist-type leader and follow him have the mark on their hand - their right hand being the hand that holds the sword - and/ or their forehead - a place where an symbol may grace a helmet or head armor.

When I first heard this idea, I was fascinated. I am still questioning and curious if this could be the reality of the mark, and that it has already come.

It's disappointing when people come up with such theories. I think it's great to consider as wide a variety as possible when it comes to theorizing, but at some point we must be willing to either eliminate, or at the very least move further down the list of priorities theories which do not clearly conform to what the prophecy actually says.

This issue of buying and selling, or in other words our relationship to and dependence on the material was a dominant theme in Jesus' teachings. Paul described the love of money as the root of all evil and Jesus talked about seeds which were choked by the "cares and pleasures" of this life. Our relationship between the spiritual and the physical is a fundamental part of our relationship to God and for the most part the world as a whole has become completely distracted away from God, to the point that we easily use phrases like, "money makes the world go round" (as opposed to God), "money doesn't grow on trees" (as though what does grow on trees is of less value than money) and "earn a living" (as though anyone not working for money hasn't earned the right to live).

So, when the prophecy clearly states the purpose of the Mark as a means of manipulating our dependence on buying/selling, and then people come along with some other explanation which does not account for our dependence on buying/selling, it strongly communicates a desire to avoid confronting our dependence on materialism.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

So you pick out the least important part of my post and respond to that

I don't think "what IS friendship with the world" as the least important part of your post. After all, you're the one who initiated that line of reasoning by quoting James and it is completely relevant to the topic. The fact is that homosexuality was your first priority (at least in terms of your first suggestion as to what it means to be "friends of the world") and "the love of money" (or, really, anything to do with materialism) didn't make the list, despite the fact that Jesus didn't say one thing about homosexuality (that we know of) and said A LOT about our relationship to materialism and despite the fact that materialism had already been heavily featured in my previous post (which you were responding to). It's almost like you deliberately left it off the list, as though acknowledging problems with materialism would somehow contradict your point.

In a later post you said...

Certainly I didn't give you a complete list.

Exactly. You prioritized homosexuality over greed; a branch as compared to the root.

It's meaningless in regards to our salvation or lack of it.

This is in response to one of my comments about the importance of our relationship to materialism. According to your response, it is meaningless, meaning that everything Jesus said about materialism, all the warnings, all the admonishments, and Paul's reference to the root of all evil also becoming meaningless when it comes to salvation. In other words, Christians can be as greedy as they want, and still be saved, or, to put it into the context of this topic, despite the strong warning, Christians should feel no shame or guilt about taking the mark because their relationship to the material does not affect their salvation.

The prophecy clearly says that we will not be able to buy or sell without the Mark, but that anyone who takes it will be cursed by God, but you've developed a convenient little doctrine which relies heavily on extorting God's grace in that it should not matter how you behave; he owes you salvation anyway, perhaps because of a prayer you said in the past or perhaps because of some other religious observances like church attendance or reading your bible etc.

That won't work with God, L7. Remember the people standing at the gate proclaiming their relationship with Jesus, and Jesus telling them to go away? It wasn't homosexuals or atheists. These were people who believed they were right with God; that they should be let in and yet they were denied. God did not choose to forgive them. He has that right.

Here again you're showing me that you're not understanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying it's o.k. to take the mark of the beast. I'm saying the mark of the beast can not be a physical object or tattoo.

I understand. It's important to at least make a show of resisting the Mark. You can't just come right out and say, "it's okay to take the Mark" but you HAVE developed strategies to suggest, insinuate, imply etc that taking the Mark will not matter anyway. You've made it quite clear, several times, that the only sin which cannot be forgiven is blasphemy of the HS and you've made it equally clear that you do not view taking the Mark (whether as a spiritual or physical thing) equates to blasphemy of the HS. The logic leads to the conclusion that taking the Mark can, and probably will be, forgiven and more than that, it strongly comes across (at least to me) that you are counting on forgiveness for taking the Mark or, perhaps even worse, that God would be unloving not to forgive someone for taking the Mark. I definitely blasphemy of the HS.

Haven't you read about the mark of God in Deuteronomy? The hand represents what you do, and the forehead represents what you think and believe.

Except, that is neither what the Deuteronomy verse nor the Revelation prophecy say about either the Mark of God or the Mark of the Beast. That is an interpretation you have applied, which is fine since we're all trying to interpret reality around us, but your interpretation is not consistent with what the prophecy describes. Your interpretation does not address our relationship to materialism (which is most commonly expressed through the use of money or, buying and selling). "What we think with our heads and what we do with our hands" could apply to just about anything, which is a valid topic in itself. Even Paul admonished us to do "all things to the glory of God", but the Mark prophecy is more specific than, "whatever you may end up doing with your hands" by clarifying that the purpose of the Mark will be to buy/sell.

You are using the similarity from Deuteronomy to distort the Mark prophecy away from it's intended meaning. It is not surprising that the Beast would assign his Mark to the forehead or hand, since he is trying to mock God. The concept of "what we think and what we do with our hand" is a spiritual concept illustrated through the physical. God wants us to be aware of our thoughts and actions in how we relate to him.

Satan has twisted this spiritual concept into something physical. Instead of contemplating our dependence on God, whether through our thoughts or actions, we will be tricked into depending on the Beast for our daily bread. The spiritual becomes perverted by the physical where our only concern becomes, "How will I eat or drink, feed my family, or pay the bills"?

The more you associate the Mark of the Beast with God's Mark, in an attempt to legitimize your dependence on materialism, the more you help to encourage that perversion in others and the closer you come to genuine blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

I did... And just trying to figure out where it says in the Bible as ambassadors of Christ and His Kingdom we are to disguise ourselves or hide our faces... ?
2 Timothy 3:5 KJV

But, what are your thoughts on the explanation in the link?

 

[Kenny'sID]

So, when you stand before God and he asks why you took the Mark, or why you didn't take seriously his warnings about how the people of Noah and Lot's day were destroyed for putting the cares of this world before their relationship with him, you'll tell him, "Paul made tents"?

I dunno. Something tells me that isn't going to work out so well.

Tobeloved didn't say they would take the mark. Something is certainly amiss about what you just did with TBL's comment.

I think the video goes way way too far in telling people to quite their jobs. Just because people work for a living hardly means they love money, yet the video pretty much says that. People who work for a living should be respected, not told they are lovers of money for that reason alone.

TBL was exactly right yet you tore it down the way you did...again, something isn't right, and I think you guys need to take a very close look at yourself. At least, in my view, you are border-lining on fanaticism. If you are thinking right now as you read, that I just can't face the truth, and the usual all that's wrong with someone who disagrees with you, and not even considering what I'm saying, in that you may be way off on the money issue, then you may be getting past the point of no return, and I'd be very careful.

Again, I strongly suggest y'all rethink a few things.

 

[Hazrus]

I'll chime in here and say that I also agree with Last Seven's position that the Mark is a spiritual mark, ie. non-physical, and that the Mark has been around since Revelation was written. I believe this is the position of most mainline reformed denominations worldwide.

A few comments to ES:

• Just because one believes the Mark is spiritual does not mean they do not take it seriously, nor that they don't take materialism seriously. The logic can make sense either way.
• I don't think there is any debate that those with the Mark are doomed to eternal punishment.
• Despite the above, I applaud you for bringing up important points about reliance on money and our need to continually avoid following the patterns of this world.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

I think the video goes way way too far in telling people to quite their jobs.

It doesn't tell anyone to do anything. It asks people to examine their motivations.

Just because people work for a living hardly means they love money

When you say "work for a living" it seems to suggests that people who do not work for money do not deserve to live.

People who work for a living should be respected, not told they are lovers of money for that reason alone.

You seem quite upset that one would even suggest working for money could equate to the love of money. I think it is significant that Christians rarely talk about practical examples of what it means to love money. "Money loving" seems to be this mythical concept which only exists in a tiny minority of undisclosed mega wealthy bad guys.

TBL was exactly right yet you tore it down the way you did

She was right in saying that Paul made tents? It would be stupid of me to dispute that, wouldn't it? The account clearly illustrates a situation in which Paul temporarily made tents. But then again, TBL wasn't only sharing a bit of Bible trivia. She was communicating a point that, if Paul worked for money, then it should be okay for us to work for money. But this conclusion is based on three assumptions, 1) Paul regularly made tents, 2) Paul was right for using his time to work for money instead of teaching the Corinthians to share with him, 3) That Paul's behavior constitutes a blanket approval for all people to spend their time working for money.

At least, in my view, you are border-lining on fanaticism.

Haha a Christian fanatic. Practically scandalous!

in that you may be way off on the money issue,

Sure, that is a possibility, but I've got some pretty compelling evidence to support my case. I've not seen your evidence to the contrary. Mostly I see outrage at one who would dare to question loyalty to the worldly system of wages.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

I'll chime in here and say that I also agree with Last Seven's position that the Mark is a spiritual mark, ie. non-physical, and that the Mark has been around since Revelation was written.

There is no question that there is a strong spiritual element to the Mark. But it's hard to imagine a scenario where you are buying/selling with your thoughts/actions. I suppose actions would fit well with the buying/selling aspect, but then you've gone back to the physical, which you say is not relevant to the Mark (I think), but the stated purpose of the Mark is to regulate buying/selling which is, by definition, a physical behavior.

What kind of thoughts/actions would prevent one from buying/selling so that your theory is consistent with what the prophecy actually says?

Just because one believes the Mark is spiritual does not mean they do not take it seriously, nor that they don't take materialism seriously. The logic can make sense either way.

Depends on what you mean by "spiritual". For the most part, what I've heard from the spiritualist is an argument which makes and concern for the material fairly meaningless. The Mark is not physical, it is spiritual, in which case there is no need to be concerned about the material. Or, have I misunderstood where you see overlap between the two?

Despite the above, I applaud you for bringing up important points about reliance on money and our need to continually avoid following the patterns of this world.

Thanks Hazrus. You've been consistently courteous with me despite our sometimes strong differences. I appreciate that.