Mark of the Beast - the core issue is Religious Liberty

[BobRyan]

Almost everyone on this board would agree with something like "I choose to keep such and such a day holy to God ... other people make different choices and that is fine with me. They should be allowed to choose as they wish". so say we all.

I am one of several people on this board that is constantly trying to oppose the anti-sda posts of the form "you believe we have the mark of the beast because we keep sunday".

We don't believe that and for the sake of full disclosure regarding future scenarios -- I might add - that IF in the future the only thing that happened was Sunday Laws prohibited stores from being open on Sunday enacted world wide, and all the entire world except for Sabbath keeping Christians - keeping Sunday , with everyone happy to support religious liberty - that STILL WOULD NOT BE the "mark of the beast" (given the details in Rev 13.)

In such a future scenario Sabbath keeping Christians would make legal arguments that they would like their own businesses open Sunday or something like that - and that religious liberty should always be upheld ... but nothing more. And we all could get along with such a restriction even if such appeals failed.

We have over 2billion sunday keeping Christians today - and it is not the mark of the beast.

We have many billions more (including over 1 billion Catholics) that use images/idols in some fashion in their worship traditions ... that also is not "the mark of the beast".

Our view of the "mark of the beast" is that it crushes religious liberty to a historic unprecedented degree in the full light of a day where all are aware of the importance of religious liberty, freedom of conscience and the word of God.

John makes it very clear that failure to worship the beast and his image - is death, as we saw here - Feb 3, 20

Rev 13:12 And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.... 15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

Even in the most casual skimming of such a statement one would notice that Christians would be denied religious liberty (in at least some fashion) if put under such a law by government.

 

[BobRyan]

I have another thread about the easy-to-see Rev 13 and Rev 14 details related to this topic.

Rev 13 and Rev 14 "mark of the beast" details everyone can see

WE can see that the "bad side" (2nd beast of Rev 13) has a program outlined in Rev 13:11-18 and the good guys have a plan and message as identified in Rev 14

1. Rev 13 points to a sin problem involving severe infringement of religious liberty in its description of the beast, image to the beast, mark of the beast - obviously
2. Sin is defined as transgression of the Law 1 John3:4
3. The fact that denying religious liberty to someone is not a form of "loving your neighbor as yourself" -- is not even debatable that I have seen so far.
4. Everyone already agrees that to deny someone the religious liberty to worship on Sunday or Saturday or Tuesday or whatever their conscience dictates .. is wrong.



My point is not simply that the beast is on the side of rebellion... it is that we must not join in it or approve of it when it happens.

 

[BobRyan]

There are "out of context snippet quotes" that could be found to oppose this open minded religious liberty centered POV .. but a more full context always debunks the spin folks attempt.

Jesus said we are to love God and Love each other (Matt 22) - yet "he who does not hate father and mother... cannot be my disciple" Luke 14:26. Taken out of context - Luke 14 looks like it is Christ "teaching hate" -- which is not the case.

 

[Benjamin Müller]

Ah. Maybe I'll be throwing a monkey wrench into your thread but here it goes: there is no such thing as religious liberty with God; either you obey him or you don't.

Religious liberty has made man determine for himself right and wrong rather than allowing God to determine what's right and wrong. When the beast power comes, he will exalt himself as god. Which means people must be unified by religion--the religion the beast decides is right.

If it were possible the beast power would be able to deceive even the elect. This man is going to be very reasonable sounding. Your post about how enforcing Sunday worship wouldn't be the mark of the beast is part of that deceptive reasoning.

Satan is a magician; he uses slight of hand. We must be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. And so we must reject anything and everything that is not in line with God.

Perhaps you disagree, but anything against God, in my view is the mark of the beast. The mark has existed for over two millenniums now, if not more. That's my view. You can't speak for everyone.

 

[BobRyan]

Ah. Maybe I'll be throwing a monkey wrench into your thread but here it goes: there is no such thing as religious liberty with God; either you obey him or you don't.

I agree with you that God does not tell us to "disregard Me as you please - make stuff up please".

But Satan is "the god of this world" 2 Cor 4:4 and therefore no secular government "is the voice of God to our soul". It is because of that very fact that religious liberty is a must-have when it comes to the intrusion of secular government on matters of faith. The Bible alone rules there - not the state.

 

[BobRyan]

Your post about how enforcing Sunday worship wouldn't be the mark of the beast is part of that deceptive reasoning.

I don't say anything in my post about "enforcing Sunday worship" - I just make comments about stores closed on Sunday which I am not in favor of but it is not the mark of the beast.

The Rev 13 mark of the beast has 3 key parts.
1. Very specifically calling for worship of the image and the beast.
2. Very specific penalties...

• no buying or selling at all for violators of it
• death sentence for those who violate it.

Simply having stores close - is not it.

 

[dqhall]

Almost everyone on this board would agree with something like "I choose to keep such and such a day holy to God ... other people make different choices and that is fine with me. They should be allowed to choose as they wish". so say we all.

I am one of several people on this board that is constantly trying to oppose the anti-sda posts of the form "you believe we have the mark of the beast because we keep sunday".

We don't believe that and for the sake of full disclosure regarding future scenarios -- I might add - that IF in the future the only thing that happened was Sunday Laws prohibited stores from being open on Sunday enacted world wide, and all the entire world except for Sabbath keeping Christians - keeping Sunday , with everyone happy to support religious liberty - that STILL WOULD NOT BE the "mark of the beast" (given the details in Rev 13.)

In such a future scenario Sabbath keeping Christians would make legal arguments that they would like their own businesses open Sunday or something like that - and that religious liberty should always be upheld ... but nothing more. And we all could get along with such a restriction even if such appeals failed.

We have over 2billion sunday keeping Christians today - and it is not the mark of the beast.

We have many billions more (including over 1 billion Catholics) that use images/idols in some fashion in their worship traditions ... that also is not "the mark of the beast".

Our view of the "mark of the beast" is that it crushes religious liberty to a historic unprecedented degree in the full light of a day where all are aware of the importance of religious liberty, freedom of conscience and the word of God.

The Greek Orthodox do not use Revelation in their liturgy. Liturgy is scriptures read aloud in church.

As for Sunday Sabbath business closure laws, they had them until the 1970’s in Virginia. These were called the blue laws. As the nation became more secular, they were repealed. Saturday Sabbath closure laws did not happen, except in Israel. Some Jews threw stones at cars being driven on Shabbat - Saturday. They are not supposed to drive on Saturday as driving is work.

Blue laws:
The origins of America's blue laws | khou.com

Jews stoning cars being driven on Saturday:
Ultra-Orthodox Jews Protest Sabbath Traffic

 

[BobRyan]

The Greek Orthodox do not use Revelation in their liturgy. Liturgy is scriptures read aloud in church.

ok. Nice to know.

 

[BobRyan]

As for Sunday Sabbath business closure laws, they had them until the 1970’s in Virginia. These were called the blue laws. As the nation became more secular, they were repealed.

-- There is an extremely interesting legal history of Sunday legislation in the U.S.

History of Sunday Laws in America
Blue law - Wikipedia
Blue laws in the United States - Wikipedia


From the first link above:

As the decades dawned toward the Twentieth Century, a new effort in Sunday legislation appeared. Instead of calling it a law "in protection of the Lord's Day," it was now called a civil law "in protection of the rights of the workingman," and was declared to be "a legitimate exercise of the police power of the State."

In a 1961 case in which a Sunday law was tacitly approved by the Supreme Court, Chief Justice Earl Warren stated that Sunday Laws would always remain a violation of the First Amendment whenever it was demonstrated that their objective was "to use the State's coercive power to aid religion." (McGowan v. Maryland, 366 U.S. 420, 1961).

The Supreme Court of the United States held in its landmark case, McGowan v. Maryland (1961), that Maryland's blue laws violated neither the Free Exercise Clause nor the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution.[34] It approved the state's blue law restricting commercial activities on Sunday, noting that while such laws originated to encourage attendance at Christian churches, the contemporary Maryland laws were intended to serve "to provide a uniform day of rest for all citizens" on a secular basis and to promote the secular values of "health, safety, recreation, and general well-being" through a common day of rest. That this day coincides with Christian Sabbath is not a bar to the state's secular goals; it neither reduces its effectiveness for secular purposes nor prevents adherents of other religions from observing their own holy days.[35]

McGowan was but one of four Sunday closing cases decided together by the Court in May of 1961.

​

From the second link above

In March 2006, Texas judges upheld the state blue law that requires car dealerships to close either Saturday or Sunday each weekend.​

 

[BobRyan]

Again from that link: History of Sunday Laws in America

==================

"A hundred years later, in 1863, representatives of eleven Protestant denominations met in Xenia, Ohio, for the purpose of creating a national Christian government in America. The National Reform Association openly declared its intention to destroy Jefferson's "wall of separation" between church and state. and pledged itself "to promote needed reforms in the action of the government touching the Sabbath" and "to secure such an amendment to the Constitution of the United States as will declare the nation's allegiance to Jesus Christ and its acceptance of the moral laws of the Christian religion, and so indicate that this is a Christian nation, and place all the Christian laws, institutions, and usages of our government on an undeniably legal basis in the fundamental laws of the land."

As a result of continued pressure on Congress, the House Judiciary Committee reported that it was "inexpedient to legislate upon the subject" since the founding fathers of the republic had carefully considered the matter and had chosen to lay the foundation for a government which "was to be the home of the oppressed of all nations of the earth, whether Christian or pagan." This Congressional committee pointed out that the founders of our nation had reasoned "with great unanimity that it was inexpedient to put anything into the Constitution or frame of government which might be construed to be a reference to any religious creed or doctrine." (House Reports, Vol. 1, 43rd Congress, 1st Session, Report No. 143.)

Then came Senate Bill 2983 in the year 1888. New Hampshire's Senator Blair sponsored a sweeping "Lord's Day" measure "To Promote Its Observance as a Day of Religious Worship." Backed by several religious organizations, it was specifically calling for a ban on "secular work, labor, or business" in interstate commerce, transportation, postal service, military musters and drills, that would "interfere with or disturb the people in the enjoyment of the first day of the week, . . . or its observance as a day of religious worship." Also condemned was "any play, game, or amusement, or recreation" that would disturb others on this day. Speaking at the Hearings on the proposal before the Senate Committee on Education and Labor, were a long line of ministers who spoke on behalf of its passage. If this bill had passed, it would have brought a return of the stern requirements of our colonial way of life. But, fortunately, it died in committee. In the next half century Congress was to consider almost a hundred measures designed to honor Sunday.

On the local and state levels, Sunday laws continued to flourish. In San Francisco, a "Ministerial Union" of clergymen was organized to urge more rigorous enforcement of existing religious laws. Under this pressure, Police Chief Crowley promised arrests "the very next Sunday." --And arrest he did. In less than a monthh's time the San Francisco dragnet had produced nearly 1,600 lawbreakers--all good citizens who were now declared to be one-day-in-the-week criminals--and flooded the court dockets. Rigid enforcement produced such a bottleneck in the city courts that the municipal police had to back away from enforcement. Men don't realize what is coming when Sunday laws are passed. For when they are enforced, it is possible to interpret the actions of most people as criminal--on one day in each week. And what had happened in San Francisco in March of 1882--woke up the entire State. And it resulted in a vote, that November in the state-wide elections, against the politicians whose platforms included Sunday legislation."

 

[dqhall]

-- There is an extremely interesting legal history of Sunday legislation in the U.S.

History of Sunday Laws in America
Blue law - Wikipedia
Blue laws in the United States - Wikipedia


From the first link above:

As the decades dawned toward the Twentieth Century, a new effort in Sunday legislation appeared. Instead of calling it a law "in protection of the Lord's Day," it was now called a civil law "in protection of the rights of the workingman," and was declared to be "a legitimate exercise of the police power of the State."

In a 1961 case in which a Sunday law was tacitly approved by the Supreme Court, Chief Justice Earl Warren stated that Sunday Laws would always remain a violation of the First Amendment whenever it was demonstrated that their objective was "to use the State's coercive power to aid religion." (McGowan v. Maryland, 366 U.S. 420, 1961).

The Supreme Court of the United States held in its landmark case, McGowan v. Maryland (1961), that Maryland's blue laws violated neither the Free Exercise Clause nor the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution.[34] It approved the state's blue law restricting commercial activities on Sunday, noting that while such laws originated to encourage attendance at Christian churches, the contemporary Maryland laws were intended to serve "to provide a uniform day of rest for all citizens" on a secular basis and to promote the secular values of "health, safety, recreation, and general well-being" through a common day of rest. That this day coincides with Christian Sabbath is not a bar to the state's secular goals; it neither reduces its effectiveness for secular purposes nor prevents adherents of other religions from observing their own holy days.[35]

McGowan was but one of four Sunday closing cases decided together by the Court in May of 1961.

​

From the second link above

In March 2006, Texas judges upheld the state blue law that requires car dealerships to close either Saturday or Sunday each weekend.​

People may close their stores any day of the week, but most kept them open as people needed to shop on their days off.

Many Jews in Israel closed their shops Friday afternoon and then reopened them Sunday morning. One shop hired Israeli Arabs to keep their shop open on Saturdays in the Galilee tourist town of Tiberias. Even then there was almost no Saturday traffic in that store. I was pulled over by a Jewish police officer in the Tel Aviv area for driving in a Jewish neighborhood during the Sabbath/Shabbat. My last trip to Israel I feared someone might yell at me for doing photography on the Sabbath. I stayed in my hotel room and read on the Internet on Saturday. Some hotels have a public room reserved for synagogue services. I met some English speaking Christians at Christian guesthouses in Israel. I attended a Hebrew Messianic congregation meeting while a translator translated the sermon from Hebrew to English through a headset. These Messianic Jews were Christian.

 

[Mugen]

Ah. Maybe I'll be throwing a monkey wrench into your thread but here it goes: there is no such thing as religious liberty with God; either you obey him or you don't.

Religious liberty has made man determine for himself right and wrong rather than allowing God to determine what's right and wrong. When the beast power comes, he will exalt himself as god. Which means people must be unified by religion--the religion the beast decides is right.

If it were possible the beast power would be able to deceive even the elect. This man is going to be very reasonable sounding. Your post about how enforcing Sunday worship wouldn't be the mark of the beast is part of that deceptive reasoning.

Satan is a magician; he uses slight of hand. We must be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. And so we must reject anything and everything that is not in line with God.

Perhaps you disagree, but anything against God, in my view is the mark of the beast. The mark has existed for over two millenniums now, if not more. That's my view. You can't speak for everyone.

For what its worth, religious liberty doesn't mean you can choose what is right or wrong.
It is about your freedom to follow any kind of religious belief without fear of persecution.

The obey/not obey scenario only works if there is just one big church entity which pretty much applies to everyone and is inherently right in what it does.

No surpise we got countless christian groups,churches, etc. which differ in A LOT of ways. It is your freedom to choose one of them or none.

As for the mark of the beast being the day of worship, thats a pretty big problem. If people say sunday worship is the mark of the beast, then its been around for quite a while. The idea it will become the mark once a law is passed and people are going to get killed if they don't, well, tbh, it sounds pretty a bit far-fetched.

 

[Benjamin Müller]

As for the mark of the beast being the day of worship, thats a pretty big problem. If people say sunday worship is the mark of the beast, then its been around for quite a while. The idea it will become the mark once a law is passed and people are going to get killed if they don't, well, tbh, it sounds pretty a bit far-fetched.

I'm not going to comment on the religious liberty point in your quote; it was late the other night when I posted and my brain was on a different wave-length over spiritual religious liberty and physical religious liberty. So both you and @BobRyan are correct in the distinction between church and state in this world.

However, I want to comment on the above quote.

In Russia, Seventh Day Adventists saw and some still see persecution by their local governments. There is religious freedom in Russia for the SDAs; they can worship how they please, but these particular groups who are fringe minorities are not allowed to proselytize and--as far as I understand it--not allowed to own buildings or land for their congregation to this day. Local governments tend to still hold on to some of the communist ideology; so persecution would be a variable occurrence, depending on what Russian province one is living under. But it does occur.

Jehovah Witnesses--who might keep Sunday, but keep the Passover--are another group which have been targeted in Russia. They're being run out, and Putin is agreeable with it. Putin is a nationalist; he wants to preserve Russia's identity, especially as a Christian country.

I can understand this. The West is collapsing. And look what the West is doing with 'cancel culture' and all this racism towards whites. It has nothing to do with being white or being colonizers, it has to do with the fact our culture was founded on Christianity. Our forefathers, during the Revolutionary War, multiple times, announced days of fasting. Mentioned God in their documents, not once or twice, but three times in only a few short paragraphs.

Our leaders are trying to destroy Christianity and the only way to do that is to destroy white culture. There were psychology studies done in Canada and America, and the gist of the conclusion was that Puritanism has left an indelible mark on America and is the core of our character, both in religious and secular sectors.

Puritanism is not only a religious belief, but a philosophy, a combination of life styles with living values. It has exerted great influence on American culture, and shaped the national characters of American people. Many of the mainstream values in the U.S. such as individualism, egalitarianism, optimism, can find their origin in Puritanism of colonialism periods.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/53e4/31bbbb8b33e3e713e6938c4bb02950ea22bb.pdf

The leaders are now allowing lawless cultures to run amok (and I don't mean that to denigrate individuals of other races/creeds) but Christianity is what unified our country. It's what made America a great country because we all had the same God; we all obeyed the same doctrine. Puritan philosophy which is rooted in the Bible, still holds sway over American values.

If Satan specifically targeted one religious group of people, he'd be announcing to the world who he hates the most. And whomever he hates the most must be his enemy; if they're enemies of Satan, then they must be allies of God.

As I said before: Satan is a magician. He sets pretty assistants in the foreground to distract the masses while he works behind the scenes. When the Beast Power comes he's going to be reasonable; able to deceive the very elect. He'll be like Putin: a nationalist who wants their culture to return to God. Because when was Europe great? When everyone* was Catholic. The people were unified by a common God and common values.

Persecution of the Church isn't going to come suddenly.

Let's look to the past to find our future!
People need to attend church again.
Oh, you don't have to believe it, but you go and make a showing.

The Waldensians were persecuted by the Catholic Church. Eventually the Catholic church made an agreement with them and said, you're free to travel through our lands; buy from us and sell to us, but you have to attend mass. You don't have to believe it, but for the sake of maintaining peace and avoiding division just come. You can sit in the back, it's fine.

And, of course! The Waldensians were corrupted and drifted away from Sabbath keeping to Catholicism.

When the Mark of the Beast comes it's going to be done in a crafty way; a reasonable way. The world is in chaos. We need law and order; we need sanity. So come to church. We need to get back to God. And what will start out as just show up will turn into persecution because you cannot have dissenters if you want unity.

Gradual changes are what corrupt, not sudden changes. The mark, in my view, has always been here. It was here under Nero, during the middle ages under the Catholic Church. So shutting down stores on Sunday, in my opinion, is significant because it's the beginning. You know two weeks to flatten the curve.

A Sunday-law may not escalate into persecution for years or a decade to come, but the government has now opened the door to persecution, and such a law cannot be disregarded. Every Sabbath-keeper should view that law as a threat and as an omen.

I think the mark has always been here, but it has been in dormancy--so to speak--at various times through history. Once a leader gets up and begins saying we need to get back to God--everyone is going to agree!--and the moment they enact a Sunday law, they have wakened the Beast. The Mark is no longer dormant; it's awake. Eventually it will escalate into no buying and no selling and full-blown persecution--but these things take time.

And the persecution by the government towards God's people, probably won't even be directed at their Sabbath-keeping. Satan doesn't want the world to know why these people are being persecuted. He's going to angle it differently so that individuals without a keen sense of what's going on will agree that these people are a problem. They government will call them by other names than Sabbath Keepers. They'll call them Jews; tax evaders; thieves; national terrorists trying to change our national identity.

Look the Jews are using a black-market system. They're hurting the economy by not paying taxes on their goods.

Satan is clever. He knows that invasion is the last act of war, not the first. He knows that you've only conquered your enemy when you make them your friend. One of the first acts to destroy your enemy is to affect them economically and socially. Corrupting them through pressure is the first step; invasion is the last. Satan won't send a flood after the Church until murder is the only way to destroy them.

If the Kingdom of Heaven is compared to a mustard seed: it starts small--then how much more the Kingdom of the Beast?

Know your enemy and know yourself.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

For what its worth, religious liberty doesn't mean you can choose what is right or wrong.
It is about your freedom to follow any kind of religious belief without fear of persecution.

The obey/not obey scenario only works if there is just one big church entity which pretty much applies to everyone and is inherently right in what it does.

No surpise we got countless christian groups,churches, etc. which differ in A LOT of ways. It is your freedom to choose one of them or none.

As for the mark of the beast being the day of worship, thats a pretty big problem. If people say sunday worship is the mark of the beast, then its been around for quite a while. The idea it will become the mark once a law is passed and people are going to get killed if they don't, well, tbh, it sounds pretty a bit far-fetched.

It might seem pretty far-fetched now, but if you look how things have evolved, things I never would thought would happen in a million years have happened. I know you are in Germany but in the US our freedom and constitutional rights are dwindling away. The Sunday law won't happen overnight. It will be introduced as a much needed "sabbath" for climate change. That is how it will be introduced, but slowly becomes a persecuting power. And of course, this "sabbath" will not be on the day God defined as His Sabbath day, Exodus 20:10. I would watch for these signs and as they start to unfold, I hope you can reconsider. Scripture clearly tells us the mark of the beast is about worship.

1. Revelation 13:4
   So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”
   
   
2. Revelation 13:8
   All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
   
   
3. Revelation 13:12
   And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
   
   
4. Revelation 13:15
   He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.
   
   
5. Revelation 14:7
   saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”
   
   
6. Revelation 14:9
   Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
   
   
7. Revelation 14:11
   And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
   
   
8. Revelation 15:4
   Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy. For all nations shall come and worship before You, For Your judgments have been manifested.”
   
   
9. Revelation 16:2
   First Bowl: Loathsome Sores
   So the first went and poured out his bowl upon the earth, and a foul and loathsome sore came upon the men who had the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image.
   
   
10. Revelation 19:4
    And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sat on the throne, saying, “Amen! Alleluia!”
    
    
11. Revelation 19:10
    And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
    
    
12. Revelation 19:20
    Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
    
    
13. Revelation 20:4
    The Saints Reign with Christ 1,000 Years
    And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
    
    
14. Revelation 22:9
    Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”

Jesus gave us a warning about worshipping in vain by keeping traditions over the commandments. Matthew 15:3-9

God bless!

 

[Mugen]

I'm not going to comment on the religious liberty point in your quote; it was late the other night when I posted and my brain was on a different wave-length over spiritual religious liberty and physical religious liberty. So both you and @BobRyan are correct in the distinction between church and state in this world.

However, I want to comment on the above quote.

In Russia, Seventh Day Adventists saw and some still see persecution by their local governments. There is religious freedom in Russia for the SDAs; they can worship how they please, but these particular groups who are fringe minorities are not allowed to proselytize and--as far as I understand it--not allowed to own buildings or land for their congregation to this day. Local governments tend to still hold on to some of the communist ideology; so persecution would be a variable occurrence, depending on what Russian province one is living under. But it does occur.

Jehovah Witnesses--who might keep Sunday, but keep the Passover--are another group which have been targeted in Russia. They're being run out, and Putin is agreeable with it. Putin is a nationalist; he wants to preserve Russia's identity, especially as a Christian country.

I can understand this. The West is collapsing. And look what the West is doing with 'cancel culture' and all this racism towards whites. It has nothing to do with being white or being colonizers, it has to do with the fact our culture was founded on Christianity. Our forefathers, during the Revolutionary War, multiple times, announced days of fasting. Mentioned God in their documents, not once or twice, but three times in only a few short paragraphs.

Our leaders are trying to destroy Christianity and the only way to do that is to destroy white culture. There were psychology studies done in Canada and America, and the gist of the conclusion was that Puritanism has left an indelible mark on America and is the core of our character, both in religious and secular sectors.



The leaders are now allowing lawless cultures to run amok (and I don't mean that to denigrate individuals of other races/creeds) but Christianity is what unified our country. It's what made America a great country because we all had the same God; we all obeyed the same doctrine. Puritan philosophy which is rooted in the Bible, still holds sway over American values.

If Satan specifically targeted one religious group of people, he'd be announcing to the world who he hates the most. And whomever he hates the most must be his enemy; if they're enemies of Satan, then they must be allies of God.

As I said before: Satan is a magician. He sets pretty assistants in the foreground to distract the masses while he works behind the scenes. When the Beast Power comes he's going to be reasonable; able to deceive the very elect. He'll be like Putin: a nationalist who wants their culture to return to God. Because when was Europe great? When everyone* was Catholic. The people were unified by a common God and common values.

Persecution of the Church isn't going to come suddenly.

Let's look to the past to find our future!
People need to attend church again.
Oh, you don't have to believe it, but you go and make a showing.

The Waldensians were persecuted by the Catholic Church. Eventually the Catholic church made an agreement with them and said, you're free to travel through our lands; buy from us and sell to us, but you have to attend mass. You don't have to believe it, but for the sake of maintaining peace and avoiding division just come. You can sit in the back, it's fine.

And, of course! The Waldensians were corrupted and drifted away from Sabbath keeping to Catholicism.

When the Mark of the Beast comes it's going to be done in a crafty way; a reasonable way. The world is in chaos. We need law and order; we need sanity. So come to church. We need to get back to God. And what will start out as just show up will turn into persecution because you cannot have dissenters if you want unity.

Gradual changes are what corrupt, not sudden changes. The mark, in my view, has always been here. It was here under Nero, during the middle ages under the Catholic Church. So shutting down stores on Sunday, in my opinion, is significant because it's the beginning. You know two weeks to flatten the curve.

A Sunday-law may not escalate into persecution for years or a decade to come, but the government has now opened the door to persecution, and such a law cannot be disregarded. Every Sabbath-keeper should view that law as a threat and as an omen.

I think the mark has always been here, but it has been in dormancy--so to speak--at various times through history. Once a leader gets up and begins saying we need to get back to God--everyone is going to agree!--and the moment they enact a Sunday law, they have wakened the Beast. The Mark is no longer dormant; it's awake. Eventually it will escalate into no buying and no selling and full-blown persecution--but these things take time.

And the persecution by the government towards God's people, probably won't even be directed at their Sabbath-keeping. Satan doesn't want the world to know why these people are being persecuted. He's going to angle it differently so that individuals without a keen sense of what's going on will agree that these people are a problem. They government will call them by other names than Sabbath Keepers. They'll call them Jews; tax evaders; thieves; national terrorists trying to change our national identity.

Look the Jews are using a black-market system. They're hurting the economy by not paying taxes on their goods.

Satan is clever. He knows that invasion is the last act of war, not the first. He knows that you've only conquered your enemy when you make them your friend. One of the first acts to destroy your enemy is to affect them economically and socially. Corrupting them through pressure is the first step; invasion is the last. Satan won't send a flood after the Church until murder is the only way to destroy them.

If the Kingdom of Heaven is compared to a mustard seed: it starts small--then how much more the Kingdom of the Beast?

Know your enemy and know yourself.

russia isn't the most prominent example of freedom, haha.
but I gotta say, the world isn't black and white.
religious liberty and freedom can be both good and bad at the same time. it just depends on where you stand.
you cannot give it to just certain people you have to give it to everybody.
and that means, churches may appear which are plain wrong or don't have to be christian at all or can be downright harmful (scientology for example). I don't blame Putin at all.
its my observation there is a trend in europe to mix the races and do away with national identities as much as possible. diversity above else. with each generation society and culture will be less defined and christian roots become relics of a distant past. it just doesnt happen in a year or two, but 100 years can do a lot.
the youths of today seem to be more concerned about what kind of tattoo they wanna get than which day to worship.

 

[Mugen]

It might seem pretty far-fetched now, but if you look how things have evolved, things I never would thought would happen in a million years have happened. I know you are in Germany but in the US our freedom and constitutional rights are dwindling away. The Sunday law won't happen overnight. It will be introduced as a much needed "sabbath" for climate change. That is how it will be introduced, but slowly becomes a persecuting power. And of course, this "sabbath" will not be on the day God defined as His Sabbath day, Exodus 20:10. I would watch for these signs and as they start to unfold, I hope you can reconsider. Scripture clearly tells us the mark of the beast is about worship.

1. Revelation 13:4
   So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”
   
   
2. Revelation 13:8
   All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
   
   
3. Revelation 13:12
   And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
   
   
4. Revelation 13:15
   He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.
   
   
5. Revelation 14:7
   saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”
   
   
6. Revelation 14:9
   Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
   
   
7. Revelation 14:11
   And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
   
   
8. Revelation 15:4
   Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy. For all nations shall come and worship before You, For Your judgments have been manifested.”
   
   
9. Revelation 16:2
   First Bowl: Loathsome Sores
   So the first went and poured out his bowl upon the earth, and a foul and loathsome sore came upon the men who had the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image.
   
   
10. Revelation 19:4
    And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sat on the throne, saying, “Amen! Alleluia!”
    
    
11. Revelation 19:10
    And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
    
    
12. Revelation 19:20
    Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
    
    
13. Revelation 20:4
    The Saints Reign with Christ 1,000 Years
    And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
    
    
14. Revelation 22:9
    Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”

Jesus gave us a warning about worshipping in vain by keeping traditions over the commandments. Matthew 15:3-9

God bless!

we will see, you gotta acknowledge, there is lots of muslims in the world who keep neither of the two days. not sure how they will play along xD
imo it would be easier to create a whole new religion, either completely void of christianity, or a mix of all the major religions. with the day of worship being a secondary issue.
the thing is, wether you keep saturday or sunday doesnt make you a better person. your heart might still be far from God because you just keep things which you know you need to keep in order to gain something. the day of worship might just be another tradition. it just so happens its the right tradition (or not).

 

[SabbathBlessings]

we will see, you gotta acknowledge, there is lots of muslims in the world who keep neither of the two days. not sure how they will play along xD
imo it would be easier to create a whole new religion, either completely void of christianity, or a mix of all the major religions. with the day of worship being a secondary issue.
the thing is, wether you keep saturday or sunday doesnt make you a better person. your heart might still be far from God because you just keep things which you know you need to keep in order to gain something. the day of worship might just be another tradition. it just so happens its the right tradition (or not).

It does make a difference on the day you worship because God said so! God was very clear about the day that He made holy for Him and for us, the day He blessed and sanctified and that is the seventh day. This is God's authority, not what was changed by man.

Genesis 2:3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exodus 20:10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God.

Isaiah 58:13 “If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
From doing your pleasure on My holy day, And call the Sabbath a delight,
The holy day of the Lord honorable,

Mark 2:28 Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath.”

Isaiah 66:23 And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.

Jesus said to obey commandments over traditions and when obeying traditions, it is worshiping in vain. Matthew 15:3-9

There is no commandment for Sunday keeping, this is a man-made tradition that was predicted to be changed in scripture over God's commandments, not by God. Daniel 7:25. The Sabbath is a commandment of God, written by the finger of God and a commandment God said to "remember" yet most people forget.

This is the final conflict; do you obey God, or do you obey man (who is man following if not God?) God says you are either with Him or against Him. I think it's a dangerous place to be tinkering with the law of God and one of God's commandments, especially the holy day of the Lord thy God!

 

[Gary K]

I'm not going to comment on the religious liberty point in your quote; it was late the other night when I posted and my brain was on a different wave-length over spiritual religious liberty and physical religious liberty. So both you and @BobRyan are correct in the distinction between church and state in this world.

However, I want to comment on the above quote.

In Russia, Seventh Day Adventists saw and some still see persecution by their local governments. There is religious freedom in Russia for the SDAs; they can worship how they please, but these particular groups who are fringe minorities are not allowed to proselytize and--as far as I understand it--not allowed to own buildings or land for their congregation to this day. Local governments tend to still hold on to some of the communist ideology; so persecution would be a variable occurrence, depending on what Russian province one is living under. But it does occur.

Jehovah Witnesses--who might keep Sunday, but keep the Passover--are another group which have been targeted in Russia. They're being run out, and Putin is agreeable with it. Putin is a nationalist; he wants to preserve Russia's identity, especially as a Christian country.

I can understand this. The West is collapsing. And look what the West is doing with 'cancel culture' and all this racism towards whites. It has nothing to do with being white or being colonizers, it has to do with the fact our culture was founded on Christianity. Our forefathers, during the Revolutionary War, multiple times, announced days of fasting. Mentioned God in their documents, not once or twice, but three times in only a few short paragraphs.

Our leaders are trying to destroy Christianity and the only way to do that is to destroy white culture. There were psychology studies done in Canada and America, and the gist of the conclusion was that Puritanism has left an indelible mark on America and is the core of our character, both in religious and secular sectors.



The leaders are now allowing lawless cultures to run amok (and I don't mean that to denigrate individuals of other races/creeds) but Christianity is what unified our country. It's what made America a great country because we all had the same God; we all obeyed the same doctrine. Puritan philosophy which is rooted in the Bible, still holds sway over American values.

If Satan specifically targeted one religious group of people, he'd be announcing to the world who he hates the most. And whomever he hates the most must be his enemy; if they're enemies of Satan, then they must be allies of God.

As I said before: Satan is a magician. He sets pretty assistants in the foreground to distract the masses while he works behind the scenes. When the Beast Power comes he's going to be reasonable; able to deceive the very elect. He'll be like Putin: a nationalist who wants their culture to return to God. Because when was Europe great? When everyone* was Catholic. The people were unified by a common God and common values.

Persecution of the Church isn't going to come suddenly.

Let's look to the past to find our future!
People need to attend church again.
Oh, you don't have to believe it, but you go and make a showing.

The Waldensians were persecuted by the Catholic Church. Eventually the Catholic church made an agreement with them and said, you're free to travel through our lands; buy from us and sell to us, but you have to attend mass. You don't have to believe it, but for the sake of maintaining peace and avoiding division just come. You can sit in the back, it's fine.

And, of course! The Waldensians were corrupted and drifted away from Sabbath keeping to Catholicism.

When the Mark of the Beast comes it's going to be done in a crafty way; a reasonable way. The world is in chaos. We need law and order; we need sanity. So come to church. We need to get back to God. And what will start out as just show up will turn into persecution because you cannot have dissenters if you want unity.

Gradual changes are what corrupt, not sudden changes. The mark, in my view, has always been here. It was here under Nero, during the middle ages under the Catholic Church. So shutting down stores on Sunday, in my opinion, is significant because it's the beginning. You know two weeks to flatten the curve.

A Sunday-law may not escalate into persecution for years or a decade to come, but the government has now opened the door to persecution, and such a law cannot be disregarded. Every Sabbath-keeper should view that law as a threat and as an omen.

I think the mark has always been here, but it has been in dormancy--so to speak--at various times through history. Once a leader gets up and begins saying we need to get back to God--everyone is going to agree!--and the moment they enact a Sunday law, they have wakened the Beast. The Mark is no longer dormant; it's awake. Eventually it will escalate into no buying and no selling and full-blown persecution--but these things take time.

And the persecution by the government towards God's people, probably won't even be directed at their Sabbath-keeping. Satan doesn't want the world to know why these people are being persecuted. He's going to angle it differently so that individuals without a keen sense of what's going on will agree that these people are a problem. They government will call them by other names than Sabbath Keepers. They'll call them Jews; tax evaders; thieves; national terrorists trying to change our national identity.

Look the Jews are using a black-market system. They're hurting the economy by not paying taxes on their goods.

Satan is clever. He knows that invasion is the last act of war, not the first. He knows that you've only conquered your enemy when you make them your friend. One of the first acts to destroy your enemy is to affect them economically and socially. Corrupting them through pressure is the first step; invasion is the last. Satan won't send a flood after the Church until murder is the only way to destroy them.

If the Kingdom of Heaven is compared to a mustard seed: it starts small--then how much more the Kingdom of the Beast?

Know your enemy and know yourself.

You're mistaken about the foundations of religious liberty in the US. The Puritans persecuted and outlawed anyone who disagreed with them. It was the Pilgrims who founded religious liberty here. Roger Williams, the founder of Rhode Island, was a pilgrim, not a Puritan.


What the Pilgrims did for Religious Liberty

https://liberalarts.utexas.edu/coretexts/_files/resources/texts/1620 Mayflower Compact.pdf

Roger Williams | American religious leader

 

[Mugen]

It does make a difference on the day you worship because God said so! God was very clear about the day that He made holy for Him and for us, the day He blessed and sanctified and that is the seventh day. This is God's authority, not what was changed by man.

Genesis 2:3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exodus 20:10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God.

Isaiah 58:13 “If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
From doing your pleasure on My holy day, And call the Sabbath a delight,
The holy day of the Lord honorable,

Mark 2:28 Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath.”

Isaiah 66:23 And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.

Jesus said to obey commandments over traditions and when obeying traditions, it is worshiping in vain. Matthew 15:3-9

There is no commandment for Sunday keeping, this is a man-made tradition that was predicted to be changed in scripture over God's commandments, not by God. Daniel 7:25. The Sabbath is a commandment of God, written by the finger of God and a commandment God said to "remember" yet most people forget.

This is the final conflict; do you obey God, or do you obey man (who is man following if not God?) God says you are either with Him or against Him. I think it's a dangerous place to be tinkering with the law of God and one of God's commandments, especially the holy day of the Lord thy God!

tbh, if you had read my point carefully you would have realized I didn't argue which is the day of worship. I merely pointed out that it can be just another tradition. your heart can still be far away from God.

 

[Benjamin Müller]

@Gary K

I was talking about cancel culture, not religious liberty in my post. I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear. What I was discussing is that American culture is more religious than, for example, Canada. Puritanism left an indelible mark on our country and because Puritanism is rooted in Christianity, our roots are in Christianity.

I will agree, however, than the ideals of the Pilgrims may be a better example than Puritanism as they also founded this nation on the basis of religious freedom and Christianity.

My post was comparing this country being founded as a Christian nation and now our leaders are trying to demonize the colonizers; demonize white Anglo-saxons and 'cancel culture'. The ultimate goal is to cancel Christianity.

When the Beast Power comes on to the scene, he will be a nationalist and he will be religious. He will be about restoring Christianity as part of European culture. Because when was Europe great? When *everyone* was unified by the Catholic Church. When was America great? When we were all unified as a Christian country.

And just like cancel culture being about canceling Christianity while using racism as the front-man; the Beast Power will persecute Sabbath keepers for keeping the Sabbath, but use tax-evasion as the front excuse. (Maybe it won't be tax evasion, but the persecution of Sabbath-keeping Christians will be for some other stated reason than the actual reason)

I'm not a very articulate person and have a problem with rambling at times, but I hope that clarifies what I meant in my previous post.

*everyone*, meaning those willing to conform to the Catholic church.