Mark Driscoll

[LinkH]

Dallas hits on another thing. Its really time we get rid of this idea that having sex outside of marriage is "cheating on your future spouse" The bible supports nothing like that.

I have heard that as an interpretation of

I Thessalonians 4
3For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: 4That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.



Notice defrauding a 'brother.' I suppose one could argue Paul is talking about one man not defrauding another by engaging in homosexual activity, but that would seem to be a stretch. It is not clear that Paul uses 'fornication' to refer to homosexual activity in other passage.


Notice that this speaks of a brother, adelphon, masculine singular. Who is being defrauded here? Could it be the future husband of a woman being fornicated with, or perhaps her father? In Ancient Hebrew culture, the father would have received the bride price for virgins for a virgin daughter. If she'd fornicated, he could get the bride price from the fellow fornicator and give her to him as wife. No doubt, many in Paul's audience were from cultures with different customs.

You are sinning with your body against God. That much is very clear. But you arn't cheating on your future spouse. Pre-marital sex is NOT a sin against one's future spouse.

Let's say a girl loses her virginity in high school. Later, in her 20's, she finds a nice innocent young man who wants to marry a virgin. She wants to marry him, so she lies and says she is a virgin. Then, on the wedding night, she confesses her lie. Or she does it five years later. That man got cheated. She defrauded him.

It doesn't sound like this was the case exactly with the Driscols.

 

[LinkH]

I think we should be very careful in casting judgment on a second hand story about a prophetic dream, in stating whether it was from the Holy Spirit or not.

Consider the case of Christ. He cast out demons. Certain of His opponents said he was casting out demons by another demon. But the real Spirit behind His casting out demons was the Holy Spirit. Jesus warned them that whoever spoke against the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven, neither in this age, nor in the age to come.

So they were accusing the Spirit behind Jesus's excorcisms-- that is the Holy Spirit--of being a devil. Jesus warned that blaspheming the Holy Spirit was unforgivable.

Let's say the Holy Spirit gives someone a dream. Let's say someone else comes along and accuses the Spirit who gave the dream of being a devil. Isn't that extremely dangerous?

We need to prove all things and hold fast to that which is good. Some people take a revelation from God and react wrongly. Jonah did it. Peter heard Jesus talk about his upcoming crucifixion, and when he heard the revelation, He rebuked Jesus. Jesus said, "Get thee behind me Satan."

 

[Athene]

He's causing a bit of a stir over here, well if Facebook is anything to go by. He did an interview and then posted something claiming that he was misquoted

This blog article has the podcast linked, and some interesting quotes.

Driscoll & Brierley on Women in Leadership « Cognitive Discopants

I thought the bit about women leaders was interesting, first he tries to imply that the interviewers church has had little growth (particularly with men) because the pastor is a woman, then when the interviewer responds by saying that before his wife took over the church was run by men, and since she took over more people have started coming to the church. Driscoll's response to this is to insinuate that they're not the right sort of men.

Then Driscoll tries a different tactic by asking if the pastor counsels men on sexual matters, the interviewer says no, she gets other people to do it - and then asks Driscoll if he would speak about sexual matters with a woman. Driscoll replies no - they have women leaders for that.

That excerpt just reads like Driscoll flaying around badly trying to fling muck around and seeing what sticks.

 

[LinkH]

I haven't read the book and probably won't, at least not for a long time. I'm in graduate school and need to read a ton of other stuff to write my dissertation, and I've got lots of other Christian books I haven't read yet.

Be that as it may, from the quotes I've read, it sounds like Driscoll and his wife are being extremely honest and open about a very difficult situation in their marriage. It looks to me like he is being honest about being unmerciful toward his wife after that dream. He writes the book to be an encouragement to others, I suppose, who face similar issues.

I suppose Mark Driscoll fans would read the book with a lot of grace toward him, understanding he is sharing one of his failings. But some of those who don't like him on this forum are basically questioning his salvation.

Jesus said concerning judgment, that with what measure you use, it will be measured to you again. If you judge harshly, you will be judged harshly. I think a lot of posters here should keep that in mind when judging this preacher.

Mark Driscoll is a man, and he is a human being. My wife and I did not have sex until our wedding night. By the grace of God, we were still virgins, by choice. So I didn't face some of Mark Driscoll's issues, like the one about marrying a woman who had cheated on him while dating him. But I know a pastor who did face this very thing, and it was extremely painful for him, and hard for him to forgive.

You can make light of it. Years later, it can still hurt. Even if they had been promiscuous in their youth, it can still hurt.

If he had difficulty getting over something he saw in a dream, does that mean the dream wasn't from God? You can't determine if something was from God that way. That is not a Biblical test for whether a dream or revelation comes from God. God had Moses go up on a mountain. You could argue that Israel made the golden calf because Moses wasn't around. That was part of their reasoning for making it. Would you reason that God would have known what would have happened if he called Moses up on the mountain, and therefore conclude that Moses didn't really hear God? No. God does what He does, and we do what we do.

In spite of Driscoll's moods after he found out about this, apparently, he worked things out with his wife. He may not have married his wife if he had known. Or maybe the devil or a devil started feeding him a line of reasoning after a prophetic dream. Such things can happen. The devil can even try to use scripture to deceive people. Saying something was from the enemy rather than the Spirit is a pretty serious thing considering the blasphemy warnings from Christ, and Mark Driscoll's response to a dream is not grounds for saying a dream with specific details like this was not from God.

And then there is the issue of judging. Let's say Mark Driscoll got bent out of shape and was unmerciful for a while after finding out what his wife did when they were dating. Can you say the man doesn't have the Spirit because of this? You'd better be careful. If your spouse had committed adultery, would you be perfectly loving and forgiving to your spouse? Might you respond in a less than ideal way? I know someone whose spouse cheated on her. While he was asleep, she dumped a cup of water on his head. You might way she shouldn't do such a thing. She should have just forgiven. Have you ever been unforgiving or unmerciful when your spouse did something that hurt you, something much less than sleeping with someone else? If so, you shouldn't judge a man as not being a believer if he went through a time when he had difficulty with forgiveness.

As for other 'incriminating' quotes on this thread-- he gets moody if he doesn't have sex with his wife? Why is that the least bit controversial. Don't you women understand that much about men? A least a lot of men can get moody if they don't sleep with their wives regularly. I suppose there are some low sex drive men who don't experience that. But it should be no big secret, and no reason to condemn the guy.

 

[Romanseight2005]

But you just mentioned them both being promiscuous before marriage. Why then should he be specifically hurt by her actions before marriage? Wouldn't she have just as much right to be hurt by his?

This is really bizarre to me, because it seems that women are expected to show unwavering grace to a husband who continues to cheat while married, but it's hard for a man to forgive a sexual past from before the marriage, even when he had one too?

That is the very definition of a double standard.

 

[sdmsanjose]

Quote of LinkH
And then there is the issue of judging. Let's say Mark Driscoll got bent out of shape and was unmerciful for a while after finding out what his wife did when they were dating. Can you say the man doesn't have the Spirit because of this? You'd better be careful. If your spouse had committed adultery, would you be perfectly loving and forgiving to your spouse? Might you respond in a less than ideal way?

Good questions Link. I hope we get some answers!

 

[LinkH]

But you just mentioned them both being promiscuous before marriage. Why then should he be specifically hurt by her actions before marriage? Wouldn't she have just as much right to be hurt by his?

This is really bizarre to me, because it seems that women are expected to show unwavering grace to a husband who continues to cheat while married, but it's hard for a man to forgive a sexual past from before the marriage, even when he had one too?

That is the very definition of a double standard.

Based on what I've read on this thread, it would seem Mark Driscoll's problem was with her sleeping with someone else after they had started dating. I haven't read about his doing the same thing after they started dating. So I don't see how this is a double standard issue. The sore point may have been that he felt like he finally found one person he could trust, and it turns out she had betrayed that trust way back when, and not told him about it for all those years.

 

[mkgal1]

Based on what I've read on this thread, it would seem Mark Driscoll's problem was with her sleeping with someone else after they had started dating. I haven't read about his doing the same thing after they started dating. So I don't see how this is a double standard issue. The sore point may have been that he felt like he finally found one person he could trust, and it turns out she had betrayed that trust way back when, and not told him about it for all those years.

The book says they had just begun dating. That could mean that they had gone out a couple of times. Trust and commitment go hand-in-hand, though. When two people first begin dating, there isn't much trust---there isn't the commitment that goes along with it. That's why having sex without commitment gets things messy.

 

[JaneFW]

Let's say a girl loses her virginity in high school. Later, in her 20's, she finds a nice innocent young man who wants to marry a virgin. She wants to marry him, so she lies and says she is a virgin. Then, on the wedding night, she confesses her lie. Or she does it five years later. That man got cheated. She defrauded him.

The problem there is the lie - not the sexual behavior.

 

[JaneFW]

If your spouse had committed adultery, would you be perfectly loving and forgiving to your spouse? Might you respond in a less than ideal way?

Adultery is after marriage. If my husband slept with another woman right now, no I would not forgive him. Or I might - from a distance - because we would no longer be married. What he did before we married .. I could care less.

I know someone whose spouse cheated on her. While he was asleep, she dumped a cup of water on his head. You might way she shouldn't do such a thing. She should have just forgiven. Have you ever been unforgiving or unmerciful when your spouse did something that hurt you, something much less than sleeping with someone else?

Dumping a cup of water on someone's head sounds pretty merciful to me!

As for other 'incriminating' quotes on this thread-- he gets moody if he doesn't have sex with his wife? Why is that the least bit controversial. Don't you women understand that much about men? A least a lot of men can get moody if they don't sleep with their wives regularly. I suppose there are some low sex drive men who don't experience that. But it should be no big secret, and no reason to condemn the guy.

Acting "moody" is childish behavior. People need to talk things out as adults. Acting out is just silliness.

 

[LinkH]

The book says they had just begun dating. That could mean that they had gone out a couple of times.

It could also mean they had agreed to an exclusive relationship.

It seems like a lot of comments about this preacher are based on assumptions.

 

[mkgal1]

As for other 'incriminating' quotes on this thread-- he gets moody if he doesn't have sex with his wife? Why is that the least bit controversial. Don't you women understand that much about men? A least a lot of men can get moody if they don't sleep with their wives regularly. I suppose there are some low sex drive men who don't experience that. But it should be no big secret, and no reason to condemn the guy.

Specifically, what I took issue with that was because he said he was "depressed" over not getting enough sex with his wife---and that he "needed" more sex to alleviate that. He went on to say that when he mentioned it to her, all she wanted to do was talk about emotions. Isn't depression emotion-based? Wasn't he saying he was having an emotional reaction to having less sex than he wanted? It's that he wasn't putting that together and was critical of his wife wanting to talk about "emotions". So was he. At least she wasn't dismissive of his emotions as he was of hers ("The truth is, I needed MORE sex with my wife.").

 

[LinkH]

Adultery is after marriage. If my husband slept with another woman right now, no I would not forgive him. Or I might - from a distance - because we would no longer be married. What he did before we married .. I could care less.

Maybe that's the way you are. That doesn't mean everyone else is the same way.

And you don't know how you will react to some things unless they happen to you.

Dumping a cup of water on someone's head sounds pretty merciful to me!

He got off pretty easy. He left the house. Maybe he thought the next attack while he was sleeping might not be with water.

Acting "moody" is childish behavior. People need to talk things out as adults. Acting out is just silliness.

Then an awful not of people, including a lot of women, if not most women, are childish a certain times if this is the case. I would venture to guess most people have moods.

 

[Athene]

A lot of men act moody when they don't have sex? How errr, illogical and emotional of them.

 

[mkgal1]

It could also mean they had agreed to an exclusive relationship.

It seems like a lot of comments about this preacher are based on assumptions.

I'm not making assumptions....I am suggesting possibilities.

 

[dallasapple]

A lot of men act moody when they don't have sex? How errr, illogical and emotional of them.

Yep...if they had a uterus..it woudl be called 'hysterical"..but...oh well..

Dallas

 

[dallasapple]

I would venture to guess most people have moods.

Well you need to check around..many hold the view that all emotions lead to irrational and knee jerk resposnes..actaully Im not of that beleif..I fully believe that many for example..women divorce their husbands(the whole 2/3 rd thing suppsedly women letting their emotions rule )..have legit emotions involved and have coupled those with logic including the desire to preserve thier mental health by divorcing..

Dallas

 

[JaneFW]

Maybe that's the way you are. That doesn't mean everyone else is the same way.

And you don't know how you will react to some things unless they happen to you.

A lot of things have happened to me in my marriage, including my husband using porn, flirting with women online and in person, and having at least one emotional affair, while rejecting me sexually. A physical affair would be the end of our marriage. You cannot even imagine how much that is a certainty.

He got off pretty easy. He left the house. Maybe he thought the next attack while he was sleeping might not be with water.

Did he think there would be no consequences to him having the affair?

Then an awful not of people, including a lot of women, if not most women, are childish a certain times if this is the case. I would venture to guess most people have moods.

Your generalization about women is based upon what? Certainly not on any statistics.

 

[JaneFW]

A lot of men act moody when they don't have sex? How errr, illogical and emotional of them.

Exactly!!

It's based on "feelings" - and you know feelings are not allowed.

 

[McScribe]

All this other stuff aside, I think that Driscoll's first point is very good, it's simply basically true. The Bible doesn't teach that if we do good things that God will love us--God loves us because God is good; His mercy offers us redemption. Simply true.

The second point is absolutely true as well--Christians are often confused about sin, I think.

Third point: simply true. Born again is the main point--Jesus says it, it's true.

Fourth point: Also very good. Church often gets it backwards--it is true that if we love Jesus, if we believe in him, we will be redeemed, and therefore increasingly as we come to know Jesus we will be like him.

Fifth point: Religion doesn't lead to joy. This is true.

I'll have to listen to more later but so far I agree with what I've listened to.