Mark Driscoll

[Athene]

Do you think God really does that? Reveals your nasty little secrets to others?

 

[mkgal1]

In looking over the blog that Athene posted....this part only cements more my belief that his discernment is off:

He also notes: “I grew more chauvinistic. I had never cheated on a girlfriend, but I never had a girlfriend who did not cheat on me. And now I knew that included my own wife. So I started to distrust women in general, including Grace. This affected my tone in preaching for a season, something I will always regret.” (p. 14

He seems to be spinning this to where she (Grace, his wife) is molded to fit his presumption (women can't be trusted).....not that he was looking at the past realistically. She hadn't cheated on him when they were in a commited relationship.......it was when they had first began dating (not saying it was "right"....but, maybe that's why it's best to follow God's instruction or at minimum the instruction of "no sex before monogomy.") Purity didn't seem like such a priority to Driscoll, as he was sleeping with her soon after that.

 

[mkgal1]

Do you think God really does that? Reveals your nasty little secrets to others?

Nope....absolutely not. Especially with that sort of timing and outcome. We know that God knows each of our hearts....why would He reveal to a husband something that makes him regret marrying his then pregnant wife, right before the birth of their first child? Sounds more like someone trying to seek ways to destroy.

 

[mkgal1]

Christianity is a religion and the Bible has do's and don'ts. Do be generous, do be loving, do keep my commandments, don't get drunk, don't sleep around.

That's why I see that message as sort of a "fence-rider" and it really depends upon the audience how it's taken. Someone that's been sitting in pews for 20 years.....someone that *is* living in iniquity, like serial adultery, may hear, "yeah.....it's about God's love and forgiveness." IOW....it can get translated to cheap grace.

 

[Athene]

In looking over the blog that Athene posted....this part only cements more my belief that his discernment is off:



He seems to be spinning this to where she (Grace, his wife) is molded to fit his presumption (women can't be trusted).....not that he was looking at the past realistically. She hadn't cheated on him when they were in a commited relationship.......it was when they had first began dating (not saying it was "right"....but, maybe that's why it's best to follow God's instruction or at minimum the instruction of "no sex before monogomy.")

I can understand him being hurt but at the same time to not trust half the human race because of a couple of bad experiences, well it's a weird, hysterical over the top reaction.

 

[Romanseight2005]

Nope....absolutely not. Especially with that sort of timing and outcome. We know that God knows each of our hearts....why would he reveal to a husband something that makes him regret marrying his then pregnant wife, right before the birth of their first child? Sounds more like someone trying to seek ways to destroy.

Actually, I do believe that God reveals things to us that we need to know, and sometimes they do involve someone else's secret sins, but the difference is that it is for the purpose of healing. God does not allow secret sins to stay hidden, forever, but the timing and the fruit born, as in his reaction, and while she was pregnant, does not seem like that would be God's timing.

 

[mkgal1]

I can understand him being hurt but at the same time to not trust half the human race because of a couple of bad experiences, well it's a weird, hysterical over the top reaction.

If a person runs around expecting to see things that way......normally they will. It even seems that he's squeezing Grace's past to fit into that box--to match his perception.........not that it really did fit.

She could turn that right around on him......had she known that he was more willing to weigh something that happened in the past, something that happened before they were even in a commited relationship, against what they had actually experienced together & what they had (including a baby on the way)....and was then regretting getting married in the first place.....does that make him someone she can trust?

 

[mkgal1]

Actually, I do believe that God reveals things to us that we need to know, and sometimes they do involve someone else's secret sins, but the difference is that it is for the purpose of healing. God does not allow secret sins to stay hidden, forever, but the timing and the fruit born, as in his reaction, and while she was pregnant, does not seem like that would be God's timing.

Exactly.....and this was something she had obviously repented from.....left in her past.

That dream was more like condemnation, because....beyond apologizing...what more could she do? Then the book takes on this tone of Mark being "better" as he hadn't done *that* to her.

 

[mkgal1]

Christianity is a religion and the Bible has do's and don'ts. Do be generous, do be loving, do keep my commandments, don't get drunk, don't sleep around.

I've heard the distinction made that "religion" is man made.....man trying to reach up to God. It's not really possible. It's man-made rules and salvation based on the individual's standards---not God's. Like the parable of the wedding banquet in Matthew 22.....we only "fit in" when clothed in His "robe".

Redemption is God reaching down to us and us entering a relationship with Him. All relationships have conditions that bind the two involved.

 

[sdmsanjose]

Reply by Romans
Okay, but if you merely wanted people's opinion on that particular video, then why did you state that you saw things about him on another thread, where people were offended by him?

Romans
My reprint below is exactly what I said.

“On another thread I read where someone was saying very negative things about Mark Driscoll. I have never heard of Mark but the criticisms got me curious. I viewed a few of Mark Driscoll’s messages and so far Mark seems very much on target.”

I thought my statement underlined above was clear. I referenced the other thread because it was the thread that got me curious about Mark Driscoll.

Repy by Romans
It sounded to me like you had seen the video you posted, and liked it, so you were wondering what others saw, that they were offended by. Therefore people here were answering that question, just to clarify.

Your assumption is wrong for that post. Again I feel that my post reprinted below was clear in that I wanted to know what they thought about the video I posted not the videos that they were offended by.

“Maybe Mark is whacked on some other issues, I do not know as I have only listened to a few, but I feel that he is right on the video below. What do you think?”

Now, after my original post, that so many posters are more interested in posting the negative about Mark I am starting to get interested in the negatives.

Reply by Romans
Now, if people know much more about this man's beliefs, and what he stands for, it stands to reason, that one video with good qualities, is not going to change their minds about his overreaching message. In other words, this man is known for his agenda, so one decent message just isn't going to change that.

Your assumption is incorrect again. I am not a disciple of Mark Driscoll trying to get all these people at CF to love Mark. I think that the video that I posted had some real good Christian lessons in them and wanted to share the lessons with the CF posters and get their opinion on those lessons.

Romans
Now that I have answerted your assumptions would you consider commenting on the lessons of the video that I asked for?

 

[sdmsanjose]

It seems many of you responding are not interested in the video I posted but more interested in your opinions of Mark Driscoll and his negatives.

Ok , then forget the video I posted and start a thread on the negative opinions of Mark Driscoll. I am now starting to get interested because so much has been posted about Mark. I do hope that your opinions will be backed up by actual quotes from mark or at least some very credible sources.

At this point I have viewed several of Mark’s YouTube messages and I have not found much that confirms the negatives that has been stated on CF. I am not saying that they do not exist I just have not seen them yet.

If I find that Mark is as bad as some have stated on this forum then I will probably not view many more of his videos even though the ones I have seen are very good Christian lessons. Like MKgal said, the truth can be spoken by a donkey, as was the case in the Bible, but for some reason sometimes some of us will not listen o their truth because we got offended by something they d said or we do not like their style.

 

[Athene]

I think it's his recent book that's being discussed here. The bit about his wife being pregnant and the dream is in that book.

 

[Romanseight2005]

Stan,
I was merely explaining why you were getting responses about Mark's other works. I was also confused about what you were wanting in the OP.

Now as to the video, I agree with it for the most part. I think it's a good starting point, except that the word religion shouldn't be a bad word. He was talking about legalism, and interchanging that with the word religion, but scripture uses the word religion in a good way.

Also, as I said before, it's a good starting point, and good for people who are stuck in a performance mentality. So it really depends upon the audience.

Again, though, I have heard some messages from this man where he doesn't mention Jesus, and instead, quotes a man who has horrible woman hating dogma, even to the point of claiming that female martyrs literally become men when they are martyred.

Therefore, I am not likely going to listen to anymore of his teachings.

 

[Chaplain David]

On another thread I read where someone was saying very negative things about Mark Driscoll. I have never heard of Mark but the criticisms got me curious. I viewed a few of Mark Driscoll’s messages and so far Mark seems very much on target.

Maybe Mark is whacked on some other issues, I do not know as I have only listened to a few, but I feel that he is right on the video below. What do you think?

Brother, I do not know this fellow. If he's a well known tv evangelist, my stations don't carry him that I know of. I like some of them though.

 

[sdmsanjose]

Reply by Romans
Now as to the video, I agree with it for the most part. I think it's a good starting point, except that the word religion shouldn't be a bad word

Romans
If you listen to the part between 1:00 minutes and 1:25 minutes you will hear Mark say
“…that False Gospel of religion is so subtle…”

With that statement he makes it clear he is talking about FALSE religion not all religion.

Reply by Romans
Again, though, I have heard some messages from this man where he doesn't mention Jesus, and instead, quotes a man who has horrible woman hating dogma, even to the point of claiming that female martyrs literally become men when they are martyred.

Romans, can you link me to that message?

Mark may not have mentioned Jesus in that message you refer to but he sure does in others. Here linked below is one that is titled
“Talk About Jesus”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J60N-GD1z0g


Do you really think that Mark does not promote Jesus?

 

[LinkH]

Do you think God really does that? Reveals your nasty little secrets to others?

Uh, yeah. I've witnessed this a lot. That's all the more reason not to have any nasty little secrets around my wife.

 

[LinkH]

Nope....absolutely not. Especially with that sort of timing and outcome. We know that God knows each of our hearts....why would He reveal to a husband something that makes him regret marrying his then pregnant wife, right before the birth of their first child? Sounds more like someone trying to seek ways to destroy.

I suppose you could try to make the same argument about Jonah, that God wouldn't tell him to go to Nineveh knowing he would go the other way, or that God wouldn't have really sent all those messages through Jeremiah if He knew the people would ignore Jeremiah and put him in a mud pit.

Couldn't God give someone a dream about their spouse's sin or problem, so that the couple could deal with an issue, but the person who has the dream deal with it badly? Jonah did not deal well with the word of the Lord at first.

God does sometimes tell one person when the other is doing something wrong. My wife often has dreams or gets stuff in prayer whatever about other people. Occasionally, its about the other person's sin. She has to pray for an opportune moment to talk to the person. I've experienced similar things, though not as often as my wife. Believers have different gifts.

If the dream came from the Lord, that doesn't mean all of the man's reactions were merciful and holy. Couldn't God give someone a dream about a spouse's past sins that haven't been dealt with? Isn't it a good thing if some secret comes out of the closet? The wife doesn't have to hide it or fear her husband will find out anymore. Even if she doesn't think much about it often, it could still be gnawing away at her over time. She could be afraid her husband would find out. It is better that the situation be healed first. The wife should repent of lying, and the husband should forgive her. Those are the good things that can come from such a dream. Sometimes, it takes a while for people to work through these thigns.

 

[mkgal1]

I'm going to start a new thread about testing the spirit behind something.......I will respond to your post there, Link. I don't want to derail Stan's thread even more.

 

[moonkitty]

It wasn't just an ordinary dream, he thought God was revealing the truth to him (doesn't that go against God's nature?). He waited for Grace to wake up to ask her if it was true (it was). The thing is.....both of them were not virgins when they had met....and they both already knew that about one another. IOW...it wasn't a hidden secret, but after the dream, he said if he had known that, he wouldn't have married her. He comes to that decision when she's about to give birth to their first child---and he believes that came from God? That makes me believe his discernment is a bit "off".

ETA---I think Athene posted as I was writing my post out. Thanks for a better clarification.....I was going by memory.

That bold part: if he knew she wasn't a virgin when they were married, then I don't considered it a prophetic dream. Esp. if they knew each other at the same high school. Now if they had not went to the same high school, and she had fooled him into believing she was a virgin when they got married and he has this dream and can described the guy she was with and name names, then maybe I could see it as a prophetic dream. But he dreamed about people they both knew, and about an open secret. I think his dream was more of his subconscious showing that he has been bothered by her having been with other men.

Anyways, I think it is best to be open with one's past sex life when one is seriously considering marriage--esp if you had been with someone that both knew.

 

[JaneFW]

I did not read the book or hear the story you are talking about. If his wife married him pretending to be a virgin and she wasn't, or pretending not to have done something that she had done of a sexual nature, she had ripped him off. In the Old Testament, our righteous Almighty God gave Israel commandments regarding a death penalty for a girl playing the harlot in her father's house and being married off under the pretense of being a virgin. God apparently takes this sort of thing seriously.

Then perhaps he should just have killed her, right? She did not pretend anything. They both sinned sexually before marriage. I guess that Jesus didn't come to forgive ALL of our sins then, and did not tell the adulterous woman that He would not judge her?

IMO, she would have been better off if he had left her. Any husband who will verbally berate and threaten divorce of his pregnant wife is not to be trusted. I genuinely fear for her future with this man.

I am not familiar with the anal thing. I read one quote suggesting the oral thing to unbelieving husbands. I've seen a number of clips of his on YouTube, mostly good stuff. The portion of the first video I saw in this thread seemed pretty good, but I haven't finished it.

Surely you can use your imagination to figure out what anal sex is? Painful, degrading and dangerous are the first three things that spring to mind. To suggest this is an alternative to BC is simply cruel.