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Mark Driscoll

AndOne

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I'm thinking there has to be a better use of time than debating on his intent in a blog post. I mean, I could be wrong, but If more people were concerned with engaging the culture and preaching the gospel to the lost, I don't think a miswording or even a statement that may be false would really be that big a deal. Plus, I tend to think that the people who actually want to see guys succeed in ministry will take their complaints to them in private, not public like some have done with Driscoll as of late.

Simply put, worry less about Driscoll, worry more about your community.

False statements are a big deal.

But I don't think Driscoll made one. He just spoke out of turn and slammed a bunch of Calvinists without thinking about it. He should be called on the carpet for it. If he is a man of God he will be able to admit his error and move on.

Dricoll makes his statements in public - and therefore opens himself up to be criticized in public as far as I'm concerned.

Now bro - you know I love Driscoll and am all about his ministry - but I still have to say he was out of line with that comment and should correct it. Give it time - he will. He's just that kind of guy.
 
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Bulstrode Whitelock

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I'm thinking there has to be a better use of time than debating on his intent in a blog post. I mean, I could be wrong, but If more people were concerned with engaging the culture and preaching the gospel to the lost, I don't think a miswording or even a statement that may be false would really be that big a deal. Plus, I tend to think that the people who actually want to see guys succeed in ministry will take their complaints to them in private, not public like some have done with Driscoll as of late.

Simply put, worry less about Driscoll, worry more about your community.

A couple things:

1. You can do both.

2. It's more than just a miswording, it's a complete misrepresentation.
 
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ReformedChapin

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I'm thinking there has to be a better use of time than debating on his intent in a blog post. I mean, I could be wrong, but If more people were concerned with engaging the culture and preaching the gospel to the lost, I don't think a miswording or even a statement that may be false would really be that big a deal. Plus, I tend to think that the people who actually want to see guys succeed in ministry will take their complaints to them in private, not public like some have done with Driscoll as of late.

Simply put, worry less about Driscoll, worry more about your community.
Sorry but the truth matters especially what a minister is saying about other congregations. And yes preaching the word to the Lost is important as well but all things have their place.
 
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rnmomof7

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I saw him mentioned in another thread here so I assume he is well known in the Reformed community. Anyway, there was an article on him in the local paper (I live in Seattle where his church is) and I was intrigued so I started listening to his sermons online. I was curious what you guys think of him? I have to say I've been quite surprised. While on certain big issues I totally disagree with him (predestination, total depravity, etc), I also must say that I nonetheless really like his sermons and have been amazed that in other areas I have found him to be amazingly spot on with Orthodox understandings and also just good Christian preaching (I was especially impressed with his sermon on the Trinity). Anyway, just interested in your thoughts. Is he a popular guy?

he is trying to use the "redeeming the culture" methods to draw in unbelievers.

I think he is a solid reformed guy but he is trying to use the means of man to draw instead of trusting the Holy Spirit.
 
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AndOne

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So far I've counted 46 people baptized at Mars Hill church today - through following Driscoll on Twitter and Facebook. How many folks has your church baptised today?

I think you people are more concerned about criticizing God's work rather than praising it. Give me a break....
 
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desmalia

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ReformedChapin

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So far I've counted 46 people baptized at Mars Hill church today - through following Driscoll on Twitter and Facebook. How many folks has your church baptised today?

I think you people are more concerned about criticizing God's work rather than praising it. Give me a break....
Does the amount matter? Do the ends justify the means?
 
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AndOne

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Does the amount matter? Do the ends justify the means?

It's not the amount - its the fact that the Holy Spirit is moving and apparantly God is doing something over there. When it was all said and done - 354 baptisms in one day. That's pretty amazing to me...
 
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The Rape of Solomon's Song
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] Posted: [/FONT]
(By John MacArthur)
Apparently the shortest route to relevance in church ministry right now is for the pastor to talk about sex in garishly explicit terms during the Sunday morning service. If he can shock parishioners with crude words and sophomoric humor, so much the better. The defenders of this trend solemnly inform us that without such a strategy it is well-nigh impossible to connect with today's "culture." (In contemporary evangelicalism that term has become a convenient label for just about everything that is uncultured and uncouth.)
Sermons about sex have suddenly become a bigger fad in the evangelical world than the prayer of Jabez ever was. Everywhere, it seems, churches are featuring special series on the subject. Some of them advertise with suggestive billboards purposely designed to offend their communities' conservative sensibilities.
Quite a few pastors have earned widespread media coverage by issuing "sex challenges" to church members. These are schemes that make daily sex obligatory for married couples over a specified time—usually between seven and forty days. (How people are made accountable for this is a question I'm afraid to raise.)
I would be the last to suggest that preachers should totally avoid the topic of sex. Scripture has quite a lot to say about the subject, starting with God's first words to Adam and Eve ("Be fruitful and multiply"—Genesis 1:22). God's law has numerous commands that govern sexual behavior, and the New Testament repeatedly reaffirms the Old Testament standard of sexual purity. Finally, in the closing chapters of Scripture we are told that sexually immoral people will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8). So there's simply no way to preach the whole counsel of God without mentioning sex.
But the language Scripture employs when dealing with the physical relationship between husband and wife is always careful—often plain, sometimes poetic, usually delicate, frequently muted by euphemisms, and never fully explicit. There is no hint of sophomoric lewdness in the Bible, even when the prophet's clear purpose is to shock (such as when Ezekiel 23:20 likens Israel's apostasy to an act of gross fornication motivated by the lust of bestiality). When an act of adultery is part of the narrative (such as David's sin with Bathsheba), it is never described in way that would gratify a lascivious imagination or arouse lustful thoughts.
The message of Scripture regarding sex is simple and consistent throughout: total physical intimacy within marriage is pure and ought to be enjoyed (Hebrews 13:4); but remove the marriage covenant from the equation and all sexual activity (including that which occurs only in the imagination) is nothing but fornication, a serious sin that is especially defiling and shameful—so much so that merely talking about it inappropriately is a disgrace (Ephesians 5:12).
Above all, Scripture never stoops to the lurid level of contemporary sex education. The Bible has no counterpart to the Hindu Kama Sutra (an ancient Sanskrit sex manual supposedly transmitted by Hindu deities.) Nothing in Scripture gives any vivid how-to instructions regarding the physical relationship within marriage.
That includes the Song of Solomon.
In fact, Solomon's love-poem epitomizes the exact opposite approach. It is, of course, a lengthy poem about courtship and marital love. It is filled with euphemisms and word pictures. Its whole point is gently, subtly, and elegantly to express the emotional and physical intimacy of marital love—in language suitable for any audience.
But it has become popular in certain circles to employ extremely graphic descriptions of physical intimacy as a way of expounding on the euphemisms in Solomon's poem. As this trend develops, each new speaker seems to find something more shocking in the metaphors than any of his predecessors ever imagined.
Thus we are told that the Shulammite's poetic language invoking the delights of an apple tree (Song 2:3) is a metaphor for oral sex. The comfort and delight of a simple embrace (2:6) is not what it seems to be at all. Apparently it's impossible to describe what that verse really means without mentioning certain unmentionable body parts.
We're assured moreover that the shocking hidden meanings of these texts aren't merely descriptive; they are prescriptive. The secret gnosis of Solomon's Song portray obligatory acts wives must do if this is what satisfies their husbands, regardless of the wife's own desire or conscience. I was recently given a recording of one of these messages, where the speaker said, "Ladies, let me assure you of this: if you think you're being dirty, he's pretty happy."
Such pronouncements are usually made amid raucous laughter, but evidently we are expected to take them seriously. When the laughter died away, that speaker added, “Jesus Christ commands you to do this.”
That approach is not exegesis; it is exploitation. It is contrary to the literary style of the book itself. It is spiritually tantamount to an act of rape. It tears the beautiful poetic dress off Song of Solomon, strips that portion of Scripture of its dignity, and holds it up to be laughed at and leered at in a carnal way.
Mark Driscoll has boldly led the parade down this carnal path. He is by far the best-known and most prolific popular proponent of handling the Song of Solomon that way. He has said repeatedly that this is his favorite passage of Scripture, and he has come back to it again and again in recent years, culminating in a highly publicized series released on video via the Internet last year.
I keep encountering young pastors who are now following that same example, and I'm rather surprised that the trend has been so well received in the church with practically no significant critics raising any serious objections. So we're going to analyze and critique this approach to Song of Solomon over the next couple of days, including a look at some specific examples where the line of propriety has clearly been breached.

(to be continued)
 
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JacobHall86

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Wow, MacArthur is slipping on that one. Saying Driscoll RAPES a text because it doesn't fit into JM's "Safe for the Whole Family" mentality? I will not be buying anymore MacArthur books. The constant and cowardly cheap shots are ridiculous, especially since Driscoll has tried to extend an olive branch to JM.


It appears that JM wants to divide the camp and say your with me or your with him. If thats his mentality, than I suppose I'm with Driscoll.
 
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McWilliams

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MacArthur declares the truth in love, not shrinking from confronting an erring brother who flaunts passages of scripture to gain notoriety and attention for himself. If what MacArthur declares is consistent with scripture how can you believe otherwise? The words he quotes are from God Himself, with reverence and awe!
 
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JacobHall86

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He cites passages, the issue is not the passage, its how he applies them.

He calls Driscoll carnal, how is that loving? Reformed people dont believe in carnal Chrisitans, he is indicating that Driscoll is not a Christian.
 
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Bulstrode Whitelock

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He's hardly saying Driscoll is not a Christian.

The word "carnal" doesn't necessarily imply a distinction between "spiritual" and "fleshly" in a strictly or technically theological sense, a la Chafer. It seems likely that MacArthur is taking issue with the way Driscoll covers certain issues like sexuality and his occasional use of expletives from the pulpit.

He's not the only preacher to note these and to take issue with them.

I wouldn't get hysterical and read anything more there than there really is.
 
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JacobHall86

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He may not be the only preacher to make note with this, but he is the only one to do so in a public forum that is not helpful to either Driscoll or the advancement of the Gospel. If he truly was concerned he would address Driscoll in private.

Calling someone carnal is saying they are not a Christian.
 
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McWilliams

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Mark Driscoll can make his own defense as he sees the need. I'm quite sure he has been addressed many times both in private and public about these issues.
As for MacArthur, he does consistently promote the advancement of the gospel in all its purity, without enhancement or alteration from Paul's command to Timothy to 'preach the Word'. I've never heard it done better or with greater accuracy! Soli deo gloria!
 
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AndOne

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The Rape of Solomon's Song
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Posted: [/FONT]
(By John MacArthur)
Apparently the shortest route to relevance in church ministry right now is for the pastor to talk about sex in garishly explicit terms during the Sunday morning service. If he can shock parishioners with crude words and sophomoric humor, so much the better. The defenders of this trend solemnly inform us that without such a strategy it is well-nigh impossible to connect with today's "culture." (In contemporary evangelicalism that term has become a convenient label for just about everything that is uncultured and uncouth.)
Sermons about sex have suddenly become a bigger fad in the evangelical world than the prayer of Jabez ever was. Everywhere, it seems, churches are featuring special series on the subject. Some of them advertise with suggestive billboards purposely designed to offend their communities' conservative sensibilities.
Quite a few pastors have earned widespread media coverage by issuing "sex challenges" to church members. These are schemes that make daily sex obligatory for married couples over a specified time—usually between seven and forty days. (How people are made accountable for this is a question I'm afraid to raise.)
I would be the last to suggest that preachers should totally avoid the topic of sex. Scripture has quite a lot to say about the subject, starting with God's first words to Adam and Eve ("Be fruitful and multiply"—Genesis 1:22). God's law has numerous commands that govern sexual behavior, and the New Testament repeatedly reaffirms the Old Testament standard of sexual purity. Finally, in the closing chapters of Scripture we are told that sexually immoral people will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8). So there's simply no way to preach the whole counsel of God without mentioning sex.
But the language Scripture employs when dealing with the physical relationship between husband and wife is always careful—often plain, sometimes poetic, usually delicate, frequently muted by euphemisms, and never fully explicit. There is no hint of sophomoric lewdness in the Bible, even when the prophet's clear purpose is to shock (such as when Ezekiel 23:20 likens Israel's apostasy to an act of gross fornication motivated by the lust of bestiality). When an act of adultery is part of the narrative (such as David's sin with Bathsheba), it is never described in way that would gratify a lascivious imagination or arouse lustful thoughts.
The message of Scripture regarding sex is simple and consistent throughout: total physical intimacy within marriage is pure and ought to be enjoyed (Hebrews 13:4); but remove the marriage covenant from the equation and all sexual activity (including that which occurs only in the imagination) is nothing but fornication, a serious sin that is especially defiling and shameful—so much so that merely talking about it inappropriately is a disgrace (Ephesians 5:12).
Above all, Scripture never stoops to the lurid level of contemporary sex education. The Bible has no counterpart to the Hindu Kama Sutra (an ancient Sanskrit sex manual supposedly transmitted by Hindu deities.) Nothing in Scripture gives any vivid how-to instructions regarding the physical relationship within marriage.
That includes the Song of Solomon.
In fact, Solomon's love-poem epitomizes the exact opposite approach. It is, of course, a lengthy poem about courtship and marital love. It is filled with euphemisms and word pictures. Its whole point is gently, subtly, and elegantly to express the emotional and physical intimacy of marital love—in language suitable for any audience.
But it has become popular in certain circles to employ extremely graphic descriptions of physical intimacy as a way of expounding on the euphemisms in Solomon's poem. As this trend develops, each new speaker seems to find something more shocking in the metaphors than any of his predecessors ever imagined.
Thus we are told that the Shulammite's poetic language invoking the delights of an apple tree (Song 2:3) is a metaphor for oral sex. The comfort and delight of a simple embrace (2:6) is not what it seems to be at all. Apparently it's impossible to describe what that verse really means without mentioning certain unmentionable body parts.
We're assured moreover that the shocking hidden meanings of these texts aren't merely descriptive; they are prescriptive. The secret gnosis of Solomon's Song portray obligatory acts wives must do if this is what satisfies their husbands, regardless of the wife's own desire or conscience. I was recently given a recording of one of these messages, where the speaker said, "Ladies, let me assure you of this: if you think you're being dirty, he's pretty happy."
Such pronouncements are usually made amid raucous laughter, but evidently we are expected to take them seriously. When the laughter died away, that speaker added, “Jesus Christ commands you to do this.”
That approach is not exegesis; it is exploitation. It is contrary to the literary style of the book itself. It is spiritually tantamount to an act of rape. It tears the beautiful poetic dress off Song of Solomon, strips that portion of Scripture of its dignity, and holds it up to be laughed at and leered at in a carnal way.
Mark Driscoll has boldly led the parade down this carnal path. He is by far the best-known and most prolific popular proponent of handling the Song of Solomon that way. He has said repeatedly that this is his favorite passage of Scripture, and he has come back to it again and again in recent years, culminating in a highly publicized series released on video via the Internet last year.
I keep encountering young pastors who are now following that same example, and I'm rather surprised that the trend has been so well received in the church with practically no significant critics raising any serious objections. So we're going to analyze and critique this approach to Song of Solomon over the next couple of days, including a look at some specific examples where the line of propriety has clearly been breached.

I just spent the last month listening to the "Peasant Princess" series which I think is the one McArthur is referring to here. His representation of Driscoll's presentation is way off the mark and quite frankly WRONG. Not to mention a blatant misrepresentation of both the man and the message. I must assume that McArthur is falling victim to either jealousy or legalism - if not both. And he should REPENT.

Let me just say that since listening to that series my wife and I have both literally had our lives changed for the better - and I am not talking in a sexual way either. In fact I highly recommend it to all married couples. The SPIRITUAL insights I have gained from Driscoll's perspective on the Song of Songs have been priceless and have helped me greatly.

McArthur does exactly what he accuses Driscoll of doing by forcing his own interpretation onto him. By mentioning the "sex challenge" in the above article he wants us to assume that Driscoll employs such a practice at his services - but that is absolutely not the case. Nowhere in the entire series - or any other podcast - have I heard Driscoll issue such a challenge. Quite contrarily, though he does encourage MARRIED couples to enjoy intimacy - he does say boldly that there are times within a marriage that a couple may need to mutually agree to abstain from it.

Also - I have heard McArthur crack a joke or two - so it's okay for McArthur but not Driscoll? Why?

Driscoll speaks the language of the culture and employs modern day language to speak to his audiences. McArthur is wrongly assuming that this is an attempt to conform to the culture or worse to impress it - but he couldn't be farther from the truth. It is an attemp to REACH the lost within the culture. The same gospel is preached from Driscoll's pulpit that is preached from McArthur's. It is just delievered to a different audiance and in a different manner. McArthur would do well to wake up and realize this. To me it looks like he doesn't have a problem with missionaries immersing themselves in Chinese culture to reach the Chinese - but he certainly seems to have an issue with a missionary immersing himself in American culture to reach Americans.
 
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AndOne

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Wow, MacArthur is slipping on that one. Saying Driscoll RAPES a text because it doesn't fit into JM's "Safe for the Whole Family" mentality? I will not be buying anymore MacArthur books. The constant and cowardly cheap shots are ridiculous, especially since Driscoll has tried to extend an olive branch to JM.


It appears that JM wants to divide the camp and say your with me or your with him. If thats his mentality, than I suppose I'm with Driscoll.

Me too - I'm through with suit-and-tie pharisees....
 
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ReformedChapin

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It's not the amount - its the fact that the Holy Spirit is moving and apparantly God is doing something over there. When it was all said and done - 354 baptisms in one day. That's pretty amazing to me...
The JWS would say the same thing. So would Benny Hin.
 
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