Mark 14:61-64

[dfw69]

Hello and blessings to all ...hope all is doing well...

Here in mark Yahshua is on trial. the high priest questioned him wondering if he was the messiah the son of Hashem. ...he ask him that very question .. So far so good ...

But then something happened... yahshua answers ..."I am"..." and you will see the son of man sitting at the right hand of power on the throne of heaven coming with the clouds"

The high priest accusing him of blasphemy saying he spoke blasphemy....

This was his blasphemy?....

Was it when he spoke I am he said the ineffable word? Was that his blasphemy? ....tradition says only the high priest would say the name of Hashem and it was only spoken on atonement day ....

Help me see ...

Was yahshua testimony of himself claiming to be hashem in the flesh condemned him?

 

[AbbaLove]

Here in Mark, Yahshua is on trial. the high priest questioned him wondering if he was the messiah the son of Hashem. ...he ask him that very question ...

It's generally understood that the high priest does imply the Son of Hashem, when he says "the Son of the Blessed One"... however, in verse 61 Yeshua says he is the "Son of man" not the Son of God. What is likely considered the most incriminating blasphemy by the high priest is the underlined portion of verse 62 that follows "I am" ...

And Jesus said unto him, I am, and ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of the power of God and coming in the clouds of the heaven.

Was Yahshua testimony of himself claiming to be hashem in the flesh condemned him?

Yeshua's words shouldn't necessarily be interpreted as "claiming to be hashem" as He says the Son of man sitting at the right hand of the power of God coming in the clouds of the heaven. By this time the deck was pretty much stacked against Yeshua so His fate likely had already been determined by the Pharisees.

It's generally understood that the Pharisees didn't consider Israel's Mashiach to be the LORD God. The general thinking then and today was that the future Mashiach, from the Davidic line, would be a naturally born man who would be anointed with holy oil and rule the Jewish people as their Lord and King during the Messianic Age. However, according to this 2011 article ... "Messiah is God" in Hasidic Judaism ... it reveals a trend among certain ultra-orthodox that Mashiach is God (Hashem).

... This new ad contains the shocking proclamation that Rabbi Schneerson is God; that he is "the Holy One, the King of Kings, the essence of the Blessed One, the eternal Light." The ad even states that "God clothed Himself in the body of the Messiah." It quotes Jewish mystical writings that Moses was "half God and half man," yet Rabbi Schneerson is "totally God." The ad shows a photograph of Schneerson with the quote from Isaiah 25:9 – "Behold this is our God." ...​

... "Messiah is God" in Hasidic Judaism ...
​

 

[dfw69]

​

It's generally understood that the high priest does imply the Son of Hashem, when he says "the Son of the Blessed One"... however, in verse 61 Yeshua says he is the "Son of man" not the Son of God. What is likely considered the most incriminating blasphemy by the high priest is the underlined portion of verse 62 that follows "I am" ...

And Jesus said unto him, I am, and ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of the power of God and coming in the clouds of the heaven.

​

Yeshua's words shouldn't necessarily be interpreted as "claiming to be hashem" as He says the Son of man sitting at the right hand of the power of God coming in the clouds of the heaven. By this time the deck was pretty much stacked against Yeshua so His fate likely had already been determined by the Pharisees.

It's generally understood that the Pharisees didn't consider Israel's Mashiach to be the LORD God. The general thinking then and today was that the future Mashiach, from the Davidic line, would be a naturally born man who would be anointed with holy oil and rule the Jewish people as their Lord and King during the Messianic Age. However, according to this 2011 article ... "Messiah is God" in Hasidic Judaism ... it reveals a trend among certain ultra-orthodox that Mashiach is God (Hashem).

... This new ad contains the shocking proclamation that Rabbi Schneerson is God; that he is "the Holy One, the King of Kings, the essence of the Blessed One, the eternal Light." The ad even states that "God clothed Himself in the body of the Messiah." It quotes Jewish mystical writings that Moses was "half God and half man," yet Rabbi Schneerson is "totally God." The ad shows a photograph of Schneerson with the quote from Isaiah 25:9 – "Behold this is our God." ...​

... "Messiah is God" in Hasidic Judaism ...
​

So the so called "blasphemy" was the thought of the high priest that yahshua "lied" in that he said the son of man (,son of David, himself) would sit in heaven with Hashem?

Or his entire revelation was considered blasphemy at that time?

He revealed to the high priest that he was ...

Son of Hashem
Hashem in the flesh
Spoke "I am" the ineffable name
Said he was the son of man ( messiah)
Will sit at right hand of power in heaven ...
And coming back in the clouds ?

All pointing to certain scriptures. ?

 

[AbbaLove]

When a sentence begins with "I am" (Mark 14:62) it probably isn't as definite in meaning compared to Yeshua ending a sentence emphatically with "I AM" (John 8:58). You can see that even before Passover (Mark 14:61-64) Yeshua had already ticked off the Pharisees to no end when He told them their father was the devil (John 8:44-45).

Then if that wasn't enough of Yeshua's contempt for the Pharisees the confrontations continued (chapters 9-12). If you or i were a corrupt prideful Pharisee imagine how angry we would be with Yeshua to the point of seeking His death. The situation had declined to the point that no matter what Yeshua said the Pharisees thought Yeshua was a liar and demon possessed.

John 8:48-59 (Before Abraham was, I AM)
48 Then the Jews answered, and said unto him, Do we not say well that thou art a Samaritan and hast a demon?
49 Jesus answered, I do not have a demon; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.
50 And I seek not my own glory; there is one that seeks it and judges.
51 ¶ Verily, verily, I say unto you, If anyone keeps my word, he shall not see death forever.
52 Then the Jews said unto him, Now we know that thou hast a demon. Abraham died and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keeps my word, he shall not taste death forever?
53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham who died? and the prophets died; whom makest thou thyself?
54 Jesus answered, If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing; it is my Father that glorifies me, of whom ye say that he is your God;
55 yet ye have not known him, but I know him; and if I should say, I do not know him, I shall be a liar like unto you; but I know him and keep his word.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it and was glad.
57 Then the Jews said unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.
59 Then they took up stones to cast at him, but Jesus concealed himself and went out of the temple, and going through the midst of them, went away.​

 

[dfw69]

When a sentence begins with "I am" (Mark 14:62) it probably isn't as definite in meaning compared to Yeshua ending a sentence emphatically with "I AM" (John 8:58). You can see that even before Passover (Mark 14:61-64) Yeshua had already ticked off the Pharisees to no end when He told them their father was the devil (John 8:44-45).

Then if that wasn't enough of Yeshua's contempt for the Pharisees the confrontations continued (chapters 9-12). If you or i were a corrupt prideful Pharisee imagine how angry we would be with Yeshua to the point of seeking His death. The situation had declined to the point that no matter what Yeshua said the Pharisees thought Yeshua was a liar and demon possessed.

John 8:48-59 (Before Abraham was, I AM)
48 Then the Jews answered, and said unto him, Do we not say well that thou art a Samaritan and hast a demon?
49 Jesus answered, I do not have a demon; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.
50 And I seek not my own glory; there is one that seeks it and judges.
51 ¶ Verily, verily, I say unto you, If anyone keeps my word, he shall not see death forever.
52 Then the Jews said unto him, Now we know that thou hast a demon. Abraham died and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keeps my word, he shall not taste death forever?
53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham who died? and the prophets died; whom makest thou thyself?
54 Jesus answered, If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing; it is my Father that glorifies me, of whom ye say that he is your God;
55 yet ye have not known him, but I know him; and if I should say, I do not know him, I shall be a liar like unto you; but I know him and keep his word.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it and was glad.
57 Then the Jews said unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.
59 Then they took up stones to cast at him, but Jesus concealed himself and went out of the temple, and going through the midst of them, went away.​

Thanks for your replies abbalove. .

What do you make of verse 50?

Who was the one seeking his own glory and judges? ...was he referring to his father or high priest or someone else yet to come?

 

[visionary]

I think that when Yeshua declares "I am".. it comes with conviction. He said it before...

John 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

You don't fall backwards to the ground, unless it came with power. I believe that because of this incident, the high priest hearing of the power and conviction of when Yeshua said it then, he was prepared to hear it again, to confirm it in his own mind, that this "blasphemy" was the declaration itself, being the great "I am" that Moses met on the Mount.

 

[AbbaLove]

What do you make of verse 50?

Who was the one seeking his own glory and judges? ...was he referring to his father or high priest or someone else yet to come?

John 8:54
Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing.
It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’ "

​

 

[dfw69]

I think that when Yeshua declares "I am".. it comes with conviction. He said it before...

John 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

You don't fall backwards to the ground, unless it came with power. I believe that because of this incident, the high priest hearing of the power and conviction of when Yeshua said it then, he was prepared to hear it again, to confirm it in his own mind, that this "blasphemy" was the declaration itself, being the great "I am" that Moses met on the Mount.

I never understood why that was written in....that they fell back and fell to the ground ...i thought that was just strange...but then in light of saying" I am" makes sense ..

 

[Dkh587]

Maybe the high priest though that it was blasphemous that Yeshua was claiming to be the Son of Man that Daniel saw in his vision?

Maybe they understood the Messiah to be a divine being of some sort(elohim), but when they saw Yeshua as a man before them, claiming to be the Son of Man(whom they considered divine), they considered it blasphemy?

The Yahudim thought it was blasphemy when he said God was his father...

 

[dfw69]

Maybe the high priest though that it was blasphemous that Yeshua was claiming to be the Son of Man that Daniel saw in his vision?

Maybe they understood the Messiah to be a divine being of some sort(elohim), but when they saw Yeshua as a man before them, claiming to be the Son of Man(whom they considered divine), they considered it blasphemy?

The Yahudim thought it was blasphemy when he said God was his father...

Interesting thoughts ...

 

[Meowzltov]

I don't believe Yeshua used the ineffable name. I believe his so-called blasphemy was that he claimed to be the Son of Man from Daniel's vision.

 

[dfw69]

Maybe the high priest though that it was blasphemous that Yeshua was claiming to be the Son of Man that Daniel saw in his vision?

Maybe they understood the Messiah to be a divine being of some sort(elohim), but when they saw Yeshua as a man before them, claiming to be the Son of Man(whom they considered divine), they considered it blasphemy?

The Yahudim thought it was blasphemy when he said God was his father...

Maybe but then in Matthew 22:41-46
It seems the Pharisees were having trouble believing he was messiah due to other reasons.....because when yahshua asked them whose son is the messiah ....they replied " the son of David"....yet yahshua explained to some degree that David called him Lord ....implying that the messiah was technically not David's son ....but Hashem son? ...

 

[Dkh587]

Maybe but then in Matthew 22:41-46
It seems the Pharisees were having trouble believing he was messiah due to other reasons.....because when yahshua asked them whose son is the messiah ....they replied " the son of David"....yet yahshua explained to some degree that David called him Lord ....implying that the messiah was technically not David's son ....but Hashem son? ...

I’m not sure exactly what Messiah’s point was. Maybe it was a question that you can’t really answer?

In Israelite culture, the father is the lord/master of the son, but in the case of the Messiah, he is David’s son, but he is also David’s master/lord. The Messiah is asking, how is this so? Because a son is never the master/lord of his father. It’s always the other way around.

I personally don’t think that he was asking it in a way to indicate that he himself wasn’t of the seed of David, because Paul wrote that the Messiah was of the seed of David. More like a mystery question, if that makes sense? I don’t know.. just pondering

 

[dfw69]

I’m not sure exactly what Messiah’s point was. Maybe it was a question that you can’t really answer?

In Israelite culture, the father is the lord/master of the son, but in the case of the Messiah, he is David’s son, but he is also David’s master/lord. The Messiah is asking, how is this so? Because a son is never the master/lord of his father. It’s always the other way around.

I personally don’t think that he was asking it in a way to indicate that he himself wasn’t of the seed of David, because Paul wrote that the Messiah was of the seed of David. More like a mystery question, if that makes sense? I don’t know.. just pondering

Good points but i believe yahshua was not denying he was the son of David....because he was ...by birth to miryam and by adoption through Joseph...he was the son of man and he referred to himself in that manner ....not denying he was flesh and blood a son of Adam.....

Yet his father was Hashem....so in that sense he is Lord (YHVH) over David's house ...

I believe YHWH and YHVH was widely accepted in the tanach...just a theory...

Now if when Yahshua refered to that scripture and He said "YHWH said to "my" YHVH sit at my right side"....spoken by David in the psalms ...this stump the Pharisees...for David called him YHVH....

He was questioning them asking them how is it that David called him YHVH if he is his son? Which they believed was the case ...that messiah would be a son of David....

So the answer of his own question was that he was both the son of David and the son of hashem ...both messiah and son of Adam ....

So back to the question I have ...if he said to the high priest when they question him "Are you the messiah the son of the blessed one?" ....which implies they did not believe the messiah would be a son of Hashem ....

........and Yahshua replied ...."I am (YHVH) ....the son of YHWH...and you will see the son of Adam sitting beside YHWH on his throne coming in the clouds of heaven"....in these sayings the high priest ripped his clothes and proclaimed blasphemy....????

So in my view its because he claimed to be son of Hashem....and also because he taught a man would sit on the throne of heaven beside YHWH?

 

[chunkofcoal]

In the psalm it's written The LORD
(yehôvâh yeh-ho-vaw'
From H1961; (the) self Existent or eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God: - Jehovah, the Lord. Compare H3050, H3069.)
said unto my Lord
('âdôn 'âdônaw-done', aw-done'
From an unused root (meaning to rule); sovereign, that is, controller (human or divine): - lord, master, owner. Compare also names beginning with “Adoni-”.)

So David called Him Lord - "adon"

 

[AbbaLove]

I don't believe Yeshua used the ineffable name. I believe his so-called blasphemy was that he claimed to be the Son of Man from Daniel's vision.

Title of this thread is: Mark 14:61-64 ... so seems evident that the "so-called blasphemy" to which you refer is not from Daniel's vision, but from verse 62 ...

Mark 14:61-64
61 But he remained silent and made no reply. Again the cohen hagadol questioned him: “Are you the Mashiach, Ben-HaM’vorakh?”
62 “I AM,” answered Yeshua. “Moreover, you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the power of God and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
63 At this, the cohen hagadol tore his clothes and said, “Why do we still need witnesses?
64 You heard him blaspheme! What is your decision?” And they all declared him guilty and subject to the death penalty.

Mark 14:61-64
61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high Priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou that Christ the son of the [a]Blessed?
62 And Jesus said, "I am he, and ye shall see the Son of man sit at the right hand of the power of God, and come in the clouds of heaven."
63 Then the high Priest rent his clothes, and said, What have we anymore need of witnesses?
64 Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be worthy of death.

[a] Of God, who is most worthy of all praise​

So back to the question I have ...if he said to the high priest when they question him "Are you the messiah the son of the blessed one?" ....which implies they did not believe the messiah would be a son of Hashem ....

CORRECT! As if it isn't evident enough in verses 61-64​

........and Yahshua replied ...."I am (YHVH) ....the son of YHWH...and you will see the son of Adam sitting beside YHWH on his throne coming in the clouds of heaven"....in these sayings the high priest ripped his clothes and proclaimed blasphemy....????
So in my view its because he claimed to be son of Hashem....and also because he taught a man would sit on the throne of heaven beside YHWH?

CORRECT! As if it isn't evident enough in verses 61-64​

So, should we continue by discussing whether the spelling should be "I am", "I Am," or "I AM" in verse 62 ... Remember, Yeshua didn't reply in writing so we don't know how emphatic He was when He said, "I am", "I Am", "I AM" or "I AM" in verse 62. If He would have begun verse 62 by first saying "Truly, Truly" than (IMO) the following spelling should be emphasized as "I AM" or even "I AM"

Or perhaps start a new thread on Psalm 110:1 ... "The LORD says to my lord:" and see if there is a consensus on whether "lord" should be capitalized as "Lord"​

 

[AbbaLove]

In the psalm it's written The LORD
(yehôvâh yeh-ho-vaw'
said unto my Lord
('âdôn 'âdônaw-done', aw-done'
From an unused root (meaning to rule); sovereign, that is, controller (human or divine): - lord, master, owner. Compare also names beginning with “Adoni-”.)
So David called Him Lord - "adon"

The NIV reads, "The LORD says to my lord" (but then that's the NIV)
The ERV reads, "The LORD saith unto to my lord"
The GNT reads, "The LORD says to my lord"
The JPS Tanakh 1917 reads "The LORD saith unto my lord"
The JPS Tanakh 1985 reads "The LORD said to my lord"

 

[dfw69]

In the psalm it's written The LORD
(yehôvâh yeh-ho-vaw'
From H1961; (the) self Existent or eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God: - Jehovah, the Lord. Compare H3050, H3069.)
said unto my Lord
('âdôn 'âdônaw-done', aw-done'
From an unused root (meaning to rule); sovereign, that is, controller (human or divine): - lord, master, owner. Compare also names beginning with “Adoni-”.)

So David called Him Lord - "adon"

Yes that's correct....so yahahua was referring to his divinity....

 

[dfw69]

​

Title of this thread is: Mark 14:61-64 ... so seems evident that the "so-called blasphemy" to which you refer is not from Daniel's vision, but from verse 62 ...

Mark 14:61-64
61 But he remained silent and made no reply. Again the cohen hagadol questioned him: “Are you the Mashiach, Ben-HaM’vorakh?”
62 “I AM,” answered Yeshua. “Moreover, you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the power of God and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
63 At this, the cohen hagadol tore his clothes and said, “Why do we still need witnesses?
64 You heard him blaspheme! What is your decision?” And they all declared him guilty and subject to the death penalty.

Mark 14:61-64
61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high Priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou that Christ the son of the [a]Blessed?
62 And Jesus said, "I am he, and ye shall see the Son of man sit at the right hand of the power of God, and come in the clouds of heaven."
63 Then the high Priest rent his clothes, and said, What have we anymore need of witnesses?
64 Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be worthy of death.

[a] Of God, who is most worthy of all praise​

CORRECT! As if it isn't evident enough in verses 61-64
CORRECT! As if it isn't evident enough in verses 61-64​

So, should we continue by discussing whether the spelling should be "I am", "I Am," or "I AM" in verse 62 ... Remember, Yeshua didn't reply in writing so we don't know how emphatic He was when He said, "I am", "I Am", "I AM" or "I AM" in verse 62. If He would have begun verse 62 by first saying "Truly, Truly" than (IMO) the following spelling should be emphasized as "I AM" or even "I AM"

Or perhaps start a new thread on Psalm 110:1 ... "The LORD says to my lord:" and see if there is a consensus on whether "lord" should be capitalized as "Lord"​

Make me wonder what the Pharisees thought of Daniel's son of man and of psalms 110..... separate beings than the messiah ?

Eliyah went to heaven ...perhaps they may believe the son of man of Daniel was Eliyah?

Its interesting the Pharisees did not reply to yahshua question ....why were they stump?...it implies to me that they believed the messiah was Adon...and if Adon over David ...why did they not agree?

 

[ralliann]

Good points but i believe yahshua was not denying he was the son of David....because he was ...by birth to miryam and by adoption through Joseph...he was the son of man and he referred to himself in that manner ....not denying he was flesh and blood a son of Adam.....

Ro 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

The firstborn of a levirate marriage were listed lawfully as the son of the deceased.....Not the son of the man which sired them.

Maybe it is similar to levirate law of a kinsman redeemer ??? We see this with Ruth and Naomi. Maybe like, God redeeming all the seed of Abraham?
ruth 4:10 Moreover Ruth the Moabitess, the wife of Mahlon, have I purchased to be my wife, to raise up the name of the dead upon his inheritance, that the name of the dead be not cut off from among his brethren, and from the gate of his place: ye are witnesses this day.
11 And all the people that were in the gate, and the elders, said, We are witnesses. The LORD make the woman that is come into thine house like Rachel and like Leah, which two did build the house of Israel: and do thou worthily in Ephratah, and be famous in Bethlehem: {do thou … : or, get thee riches, or, power } {be famous: Heb. proclaim thy name 
12 And let thy house be like the house of Pharez, whom Tamar bare unto Judah, of the seed which the LORD shall give thee of this young woman.
13 So Boaz took Ruth, and she was his wife: and when he went in unto her, the LORD gave her conception, and she bare a son.
14 And the women said unto Naomi, Blessed be the LORD, which hath not left thee this day without a kinsman, that his name may be famous in Israel. {left … :
Heb. caused to cease unto thee } {kinsman: or, redeemer }
15 And he shall be unto thee a restorer of thy life, and a nourisher of thine old age: for thy daughter in law, which loveth thee, which is better to thee than seven sons, hath born him. {a nourisher of: Heb. to nourish } {thine … : Heb. thy gray hairs }