Mark 14:61-64

[chunkofcoal]

Yes that's correct....so yahahua was referring to his divinity....

Yeshua asked:
If David then call him Lord (Adon) how is he his son? (Mat 22:45)
What Peter said in Acts 2 might be worth another look.

 

[gadar perets]

Hello and blessings to all ...hope all is doing well...

Here in mark Yahshua is on trial. the high priest questioned him wondering if he was the messiah the son of Hashem. ...he ask him that very question .. So far so good ...

But then something happened... yahshua answers ..."I am"..." and you will see the son of man sitting at the right hand of power on the throne of heaven coming with the clouds"

The high priest accusing him of blasphemy saying he spoke blasphemy....

This was his blasphemy?....

Was it when he spoke I am he said the ineffable word? Was that his blasphemy? ....tradition says only the high priest would say the name of Hashem and it was only spoken on atonement day ....

Help me see ...

Was yahshua testimony of himself claiming to be hashem in the flesh condemned him?

You need to examine the context, the parallel passages and other accusations of blasphemy to understand what this blasphemy was.

Mar 14:55 And the chief priests and all the council sought for witness against Yeshua to put him to death; and found none.
Mar 14:56 For many bare false witness against him, but their witness agreed not together.
Mar 14:57 And there arose certain, and bare false witness against him, saying,
Mar 14:58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.
Mar 14:59 But neither so did their witness agree together.
Mar 14:60 And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Yeshua, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
​

This is the prelude to Mark 14:61-64. As you can see, they desperately want to find something against Yeshua so they could put him to death.

Luk 22:66 And as soon as it was day, the elders of the people and the chief priests and the scribes came together, and led him into their council, saying,
Luk 22:67 Art thou the Messiah? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe:
Luk 22:68 And if I also ask you, ye will not answer me, nor let me go.
Luk 22:69 Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.
Luk 22:70 Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am.
Luk 22:71 And they said, What need we any further witness? for we ourselves have heard of his own mouth.
​

There was no concern by the Jews when he spoke the words in verse 69. It wasn't until he admitted to being the "Son of God" that they finally found a supposed fault in him.

Mat 26:63 But Yeshua held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Messiah, the Son of God.
Mat 26:64 Yeshua saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mat 26:65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.
​

As in Luke's account, Yeshua admitted to being "the Son of God". In keeping with Luke's account, the words in verse 64 after "nevertheless" had nothing to do with the blasphemy. It was admitting he was the Son of God that caused the high priest to rent his clothes and declare blasphemy.

Is declaring oneself to be the Son of God really blasphemy?

John 10:36 Say you of him, whom the Father has sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blaspheme; because I said, I am the Son of God?
​

To a Jew, such a declaration was blasphemy.

The phrase, "I am" in Mark and "You say that I am" in Luke and ""Thou hast said" in Matthew has nothing to do with the blasphemy, nor is it a reference to the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14.

 

[dfw69]

You need to examine the context, the parallel passages and other accusations of blasphemy to understand what this blasphemy was.

Mar 14:55 And the chief priests and all the council sought for witness against Yeshua to put him to death; and found none.
Mar 14:56 For many bare false witness against him, but their witness agreed not together.
Mar 14:57 And there arose certain, and bare false witness against him, saying,
Mar 14:58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.
Mar 14:59 But neither so did their witness agree together.
Mar 14:60 And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Yeshua, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
​

This is the prelude to Mark 14:61-64. As you can see, they desperately want to find something against Yeshua so they could put him to death.

Luk 22:66 And as soon as it was day, the elders of the people and the chief priests and the scribes came together, and led him into their council, saying,
Luk 22:67 Art thou the Messiah? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe:
Luk 22:68 And if I also ask you, ye will not answer me, nor let me go.
Luk 22:69 Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.
Luk 22:70 Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am.
Luk 22:71 And they said, What need we any further witness? for we ourselves have heard of his own mouth.
​

There was no concern by the Jews when he spoke the words in verse 69. It wasn't until he admitted to being the "Son of God" that they finally found a supposed fault in him.

Mat 26:63 But Yeshua held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Messiah, the Son of God.
Mat 26:64 Yeshua saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mat 26:65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.
​

As in Luke's account, Yeshua admitted to being "the Son of God". In keeping with Luke's account, the words in verse 64 after "nevertheless" had nothing to do with the blasphemy. It was admitting he was the Son of God that caused the high priest to rent his clothes and declare blasphemy.

Is declaring oneself to be the Son of God really blasphemy?

John 10:36 Say you of him, whom the Father has sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blaspheme; because I said, I am the Son of God?
​

To a Jew, such a declaration was blasphemy.

The phrase, "I am" in Mark and "You say that I am" in Luke and ""Thou hast said" in Matthew has nothing to do with the blasphemy, nor is it a reference to the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14.

Yes thank you Gadar...

Also when Yahshua ask who do people say that "I Am"? They said some believed ....
John the Baptist ..risen from the dead which is the theory that the messiah would (die and be resurrected)?
or
Elijah (the man from heaven) ...which is the promised messiah before the great day of YHVH?
or
a new Prophet...like unto Moses?...Who would lead then back to YHVH by way of the new covenant?

Suggesting different opinions concerning him...and possibly expecting another messiah to come after him?

Interestingly none of his disciples said that the "people" thought he was the messiah son of David????? When its clearly revealed in scripture that some thought he was the promised messiah, the king of the Jews, and son of David ...Matthew 21:9. Mark 10:47
Luke 18:38 Matthew 9:27

Mark 8:27-29 and Luke 9:18-20....Peter reveals Yahshua was in fact the promised messiah...Peter was not expecting another as others possibly did....

Perhaps the "people" that Yahshua was referring to was not the general public but the leaders of Israel.....?

In Matthew 16:13-16 Peter reveals the messiah is the son of Hashem new concept ...

In John 11:46-53..Yahshua was performing many great miracles that were making many believers ....This was a great concern for the leaders of Israel ...The leaders plotted to take his life for fear the Romans would destroy their temple and nation....The high priest thought the death of one man was necessary for the preservation of the entire Jewish race.. All they needed was an accusation ....Yahshua gave them one when he revealed he was Hashems son

Perhaps the high priest was referring to a certain prophecy that a messiah would die for the nation and that in doing so, He would gather all Israel together or save all Israel????

I personally believe he revealed he was Hashems (YHWH) Son (YHVH)
That YHVH is YHWH son ...

 

[dfw69]

Yeshua asked:
If David then call him Lord (Adon) how is he his son? (Mat 22:45)
What Peter said in Acts 2 might be worth another look.

Acts 2

1 On the day of Pentecost all the believers were meeting together in one place.
2Suddenly, there was a sound from heaven like the roaring of a mighty windstorm, and it filled the house where they were sitting.
3 Then, what looked like flames or tongues of fire appeared and settled on each of them.
4 And everyone present was filled with the Holy Spirit and began speaking in other languages, as the Holy Spirit gave them this ability.
5 At that time there were devout Jews from every nation living in Jerusalem.
6 When they heard the loud noise, everyone came running, and they were bewildered to hear their own languages being spoken by the believers.
7 They were completely amazed. “How can this be?” they exclaimed. “These people are all from Galilee,
8and yet we hear them speaking in our own native languages!
9Here we are—Parthians, Medes, Elamites, people from Mesopotamia, Judea, Cappadocia, Pontus, the province of Asia,
10 Phrygia, Pamphylia, Egypt, and the areas of Libya around Cyrene, visitors from Rome
11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism), Cretans, and Arabs. And we all hear these people speaking in our own languages about the wonderful things God has done!”
12 They stood there amazed and perplexed. “What can this mean?” they asked each other.
13 But others in the crowd ridiculed them, saying, “They’re just drunk, that’s all!”
14 Then Peter stepped forward with the eleven other apostles and shouted to the crowd, “Listen carefully, all of you, fellow Jews and residents of Jerusalem! Make no mistake about this.
15These people are not drunk, as some of you are assuming. Nine o’clock in the morning is much too early for that.
16 No, what you see was predicted long ago by the prophet Joel:
17 ‘In the last days,’ God says, ‘I will pour out my Spirit upon all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy. Your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams.
18 In those days I will pour out my Spirit even on my servants—men and women alike— and they will prophesy.
19 And I will cause wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below— blood and fire and clouds of smoke.
20 The sun will become dark, and the moon will turn blood red before that great and glorious day of the LORD arrives.
21 But everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved.’
22 “People of Israel, listen! God publicly endorsed Jesus the Nazarene by doing powerful miracles, wonders, and signs through him, as you well know.
23 But God knew what would happen, and his prearranged plan was carried out when Jesus was betrayed. With the help of lawless Gentiles, you nailed him to a cross and killed him.
24 But God released him from the horrors of death and raised him back to life, for death could not keep him in its grip.
25 King David said this about him: ‘I see that the LORD is always with me. I will not be shaken, for he is right beside me.
26 No wonder my heart is glad, and my tongue shouts his praises! My body rests in hope.
27 For you will not leave my soul among the dead or allow your Holy One to rot in the grave.
28 You have shown me the way of life, and you will fill me with the joy of your presence.’
29 “Dear brothers, think about this! You can be sure that the patriarch David wasn’t referring to himself, for he died and was buried, and his tomb is still here among us.
30 But he was a prophet, and he knew God had promised with an oath that one of David’s own descendants would sit on his throne.
31 David was looking into the future and speaking of the Messiah’s resurrection. He was saying that God would not leave him among the dead or allow his body to rot in the grave.
32 “God raised Jesus from the dead, and we are all witnesses of this.
33 Now he is exalted to the place of highest honor in heaven, at God’s right hand. And the Father, as he had promised, gave him the Holy Spirit to pour out upon us, just as you see and hear today.
34 For David himself never ascended into heaven, yet he said, ‘The LORD said to my Lord, “Sit in the place of honor at my right hand
35until I humble your enemies, making them a footstool under your feet.”’
36 “So let everyone in Israel know for certain that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, to be both Lord and Messiah!”

What would you like to point out?

 

[chunkofcoal]

Acts 2

1 On the day of Pentecost all the believers were meeting together in one place.
2Suddenly, there was a sound from heaven like the roaring of a mighty windstorm, and it filled the house where they were sitting.
3 Then, what looked like flames or tongues of fire appeared and settled on each of them.
4 And everyone present was filled with the Holy Spirit and began speaking in other languages, as the Holy Spirit gave them this ability.
5 At that time there were devout Jews from every nation living in Jerusalem.
6 When they heard the loud noise, everyone came running, and they were bewildered to hear their own languages being spoken by the believers.
7 They were completely amazed. “How can this be?” they exclaimed. “These people are all from Galilee,
8and yet we hear them speaking in our own native languages!
9Here we are—Parthians, Medes, Elamites, people from Mesopotamia, Judea, Cappadocia, Pontus, the province of Asia,
10 Phrygia, Pamphylia, Egypt, and the areas of Libya around Cyrene, visitors from Rome
11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism), Cretans, and Arabs. And we all hear these people speaking in our own languages about the wonderful things God has done!”
12 They stood there amazed and perplexed. “What can this mean?” they asked each other.
13 But others in the crowd ridiculed them, saying, “They’re just drunk, that’s all!”
14 Then Peter stepped forward with the eleven other apostles and shouted to the crowd, “Listen carefully, all of you, fellow Jews and residents of Jerusalem! Make no mistake about this.
15These people are not drunk, as some of you are assuming. Nine o’clock in the morning is much too early for that.
16 No, what you see was predicted long ago by the prophet Joel:
17 ‘In the last days,’ God says, ‘I will pour out my Spirit upon all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy. Your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams.
18 In those days I will pour out my Spirit even on my servants—men and women alike— and they will prophesy.
19 And I will cause wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below— blood and fire and clouds of smoke.
20 The sun will become dark, and the moon will turn blood red before that great and glorious day of the LORD arrives.
21 But everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved.’
22 “People of Israel, listen! God publicly endorsed Jesus the Nazarene by doing powerful miracles, wonders, and signs through him, as you well know.
23 But God knew what would happen, and his prearranged plan was carried out when Jesus was betrayed. With the help of lawless Gentiles, you nailed him to a cross and killed him.
24 But God released him from the horrors of death and raised him back to life, for death could not keep him in its grip.
25 King David said this about him: ‘I see that the LORD is always with me. I will not be shaken, for he is right beside me.
26 No wonder my heart is glad, and my tongue shouts his praises! My body rests in hope.
27 For you will not leave my soul among the dead or allow your Holy One to rot in the grave.
28 You have shown me the way of life, and you will fill me with the joy of your presence.’
29 “Dear brothers, think about this! You can be sure that the patriarch David wasn’t referring to himself, for he died and was buried, and his tomb is still here among us.
30 But he was a prophet, and he knew God had promised with an oath that one of David’s own descendants would sit on his throne.
31 David was looking into the future and speaking of the Messiah’s resurrection. He was saying that God would not leave him among the dead or allow his body to rot in the grave.
32 “God raised Jesus from the dead, and we are all witnesses of this.
33 Now he is exalted to the place of highest honor in heaven, at God’s right hand. And the Father, as he had promised, gave him the Holy Spirit to pour out upon us, just as you see and hear today.
34 For David himself never ascended into heaven, yet he said, ‘The LORD said to my Lord, “Sit in the place of honor at my right hand
35until I humble your enemies, making them a footstool under your feet.”’
36 “So let everyone in Israel know for certain that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, to be both Lord and Messiah!”

What would you like to point out?

Maybe you should start a thread about the son of David/the Son of God so this thread doesn't get too off topic.
Or the forum police might get after us!

 

[dfw69]

Ro 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

The firstborn of a levirate marriage were listed lawfully as the son of the deceased.....Not the son of the man which sired them.

Maybe it is similar to levirate law of a kinsman redeemer ??? We see this with Ruth and Naomi. Maybe like, God redeeming all the seed of Abraham?
ruth 4:10 Moreover Ruth the Moabitess, the wife of Mahlon, have I purchased to be my wife, to raise up the name of the dead upon his inheritance, that the name of the dead be not cut off from among his brethren, and from the gate of his place: ye are witnesses this day.
11 And all the people that were in the gate, and the elders, said, We are witnesses. The LORD make the woman that is come into thine house like Rachel and like Leah, which two did build the house of Israel: and do thou worthily in Ephratah, and be famous in Bethlehem: {do thou … : or, get thee riches, or, power } {be famous: Heb. proclaim thy name 
12 And let thy house be like the house of Pharez, whom Tamar bare unto Judah, of the seed which the LORD shall give thee of this young woman.
13 So Boaz took Ruth, and she was his wife: and when he went in unto her, the LORD gave her conception, and she bare a son.
14 And the women said unto Naomi, Blessed be the LORD, which hath not left thee this day without a kinsman, that his name may be famous in Israel. {left … :
Heb. caused to cease unto thee } {kinsman: or, redeemer }
15 And he shall be unto thee a restorer of thy life, and a nourisher of thine old age: for thy daughter in law, which loveth thee, which is better to thee than seven sons, hath born him. {a nourisher of: Heb. to nourish } {thine … : Heb. thy gray hairs }

The kinsman redeemer?

I never considered how Yahshua was a kinsman redeemer. Or how Hashem became his kinsman redeemer....If I have before I don't remember ... Alot of times I forget my stance on some of my biblical issues...Aging plays a major role on that ...

What I was thinking was that Yahshua died not having any sons of his own. And he needed a kinsman redeemer to bare him sons....Hashem raised him from the dead...Hashem became his sons kinsman redeemer in that all who enters the new covenant becomes his children....

Or was it that Hashem died on the cross in the representative form of his son and had no sons and Yahshua redeemed his father to bare sons unto him through the new covenant???

I love the second thought because scripture reveals we become Hashems children through our faith in him

But either scenario is a beautiful picture of love and kinsman redeemer...

 

[AbbaLove]

But either scenario is a beautiful picture of love and kinsman redeemer...

Galatians 4:4-6
4 but when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,
5 to redeem those that were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father;

Ephesians 1:4-6
4 according as He has chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before Him in charity;
5 having marked out beforehand the way for us to be adopted as sons by Jesus Christ in Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, in which He has made us accepted in the beloved;​

 

[dfw69]

Galatians 4:4-6
4 but when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,
5 to redeem those that were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father;

Ephesians 1:4-6
4 according as He has chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before Him in charity;
5 having marked out beforehand the way for us to be adopted as sons by Jesus Christ in Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, in which He has made us accepted in the beloved;​

Who do you believe was the kinsman redeemer?

 

[visionary]

Yeshua was found the true definition of kinsman-redeemer, as He "will save his people from their sins"... you can't get better than this.

 

[chunkofcoal]

You need to examine the context, the parallel passages and other accusations of blasphemy to understand what this blasphemy was.

Mar 14:55 And the chief priests and all the council sought for witness against Yeshua to put him to death; and found none.
Mar 14:56 For many bare false witness against him, but their witness agreed not together.
Mar 14:57 And there arose certain, and bare false witness against him, saying,
Mar 14:58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.
Mar 14:59 But neither so did their witness agree together.
Mar 14:60 And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Yeshua, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
​

This is the prelude to Mark 14:61-64. As you can see, they desperately want to find something against Yeshua so they could put him to death.

Luk 22:66 And as soon as it was day, the elders of the people and the chief priests and the scribes came together, and led him into their council, saying,
Luk 22:67 Art thou the Messiah? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe:
Luk 22:68 And if I also ask you, ye will not answer me, nor let me go.
Luk 22:69 Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.
Luk 22:70 Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am.
Luk 22:71 And they said, What need we any further witness? for we ourselves have heard of his own mouth.
​

There was no concern by the Jews when he spoke the words in verse 69. It wasn't until he admitted to being the "Son of God" that they finally found a supposed fault in him.

Mat 26:63 But Yeshua held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Messiah, the Son of God.
Mat 26:64 Yeshua saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mat 26:65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.
​

As in Luke's account, Yeshua admitted to being "the Son of God". In keeping with Luke's account, the words in verse 64 after "nevertheless" had nothing to do with the blasphemy. It was admitting he was the Son of God that caused the high priest to rent his clothes and declare blasphemy.

Is declaring oneself to be the Son of God really blasphemy?

John 10:36 Say you of him, whom the Father has sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blaspheme; because I said, I am the Son of God?
​

To a Jew, such a declaration was blasphemy.

The phrase, "I am" in Mark and "You say that I am" in Luke and ""Thou hast said" in Matthew has nothing to do with the blasphemy, nor is it a reference to the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14.

Good post, gadar.
The Jews equated Yeshua saying He was the Son of God, with Him "making Himself" God.

Joh 10:31-38 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. (32) Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? (33) The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. (34) Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? (35) If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; (36) Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? (37) If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. (38) But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Joh 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

 

[dfw69]

Good post, gadar.
The Jews equated Yeshua saying He was the Son of God, with Him "making Himself" God.

Joh 10:31-38 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. (32) Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? (33) The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. (34) Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? (35) If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; (36) Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? (37) If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. (38) But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Joh 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

So the theology that the messiah is to be a son of Hashem was not a messianic revelation that the sanhedrin held to be true?

 

[dfw69]

Yeshua was found the true definition of kinsman-redeemer, as He "will save his people from their sins"... you can't get better than this.

He was kinsman redeemer to Adam as well ....not just the tribe of Judah ...for he is the redeemer of the entire human race...john 3:16...

But in the sense of his special relationship with the father being his only begotten son . ......yahshua died having no sons ...and Hashem create the new covenant through him causing sons unto yahshua ...Isaiah 8:18 Hebrews 2:13

Yahshua was hashem in the flesh in the form of his representative.....as if hashem was among us. .and hashem died with no sons.....yahshua resurrected to bear Hashem sons by way of new covenant...1 John 3:1

Both scenario seem to be true...imo

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So the theology that the messiah is to be a son of Hashem was not a messianic revelation that the sanhedrin held to be true?

first perhaps: messianic (or any) revelations from ABBA were not "theology".

second, not sure: I don't think any Jews expected Yahweh/Hashem nor Yahshua - Yahweh's Salvation, to come to earth as a man, ever,
no one expected anything like what Yahweh and Yahshua planned,
until AFTER Yahweh revealed this thru Yahshua,
and only those to whom He revealed this know this in truth and reality/ experience.

 

[chunkofcoal]

So the theology that the messiah is to be a son of Hashem was not a messianic revelation that the sanhedrin held to be true?

John 5

 

[dfw69]

first perhaps: messianic (or any) revelations from ABBA were not "theology".

second, not sure: I don't think any Jews expected Yahweh/Hashem nor Yahshua - Yahweh's Salvation, to come to earth as a man, ever,
no one expected anything like what Yahweh and Yahshua planned,
until AFTER Yahweh revealed this thru Yahshua,
and only those to whom He revealed this know this in truth and reality/ experience.

So then from what I understand ...the Jews expect Eliyah to appear first to gather scattered Israel...for the purpose of creating the kingdom of heaven on earth ...the new age ...the world to come ...Hashem with us...Eliyah appearing would be the beginning of that process.

Then they expected a son of David to become anointed (King MESSIAH) by perhaps Eliyah...to fulfill the promise to David...

Then they expected Hashem to appear on earth in the form of what?.... his Spirit?... Or his divine presence (Shekinah) to return back to the TEMPLE?...but was not his divine presence already in the TEMPLE at the time of Yahshua? ...if not . when did it leave? ..during the destruction of Solomon's TEMPLE?

Just some questions I have....

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So then from what I understand ...the Jews expect Eliyah to appear first to gather scattered Israel...for the purpose of creating heaven on earth ...a new age ...the world to come ...Eliyah appearing would be the beginning of that process.

Then they expected a son of David to become anointed (King MESSIAH) by perhaps Eliyah...

Then they expected Hashem to appear on earth in the form of what?.... his Spirit?... Or his divine presence (Shekinah) to return back to the TEMPLE?...but was not his divine presence already in the TEMPLE at the time of Yahshua? ...if not . when did it leave? ..during the destruction of Solomon's TEMPLE?

Just some questions I have....

These are WONDERFUL and GOOD questions, but I don't know that I can answer fully and accurately about what the Jews knew or expected, whether they were the faithful ones or the unfaithful ones , or when .....

Basically I think that Yahshua Messiah was not fitting what the Jewish leaders expected,
yet some worshipers in the Temple were eagerly waiting for years for Yahweh to send Him (as written they met and worshiped Him when His parents brought Him in the Temple, I think) .

I'm pretty sure some of the others (faithful ones) this week will be able to and willing to give a much fuller account.

 

[visionary]

first perhaps: messianic (or any) revelations from ABBA were not "theology".

second, not sure: I don't think any Jews expected Yahweh/Hashem nor Yahshua - Yahweh's Salvation, to come to earth as a man, ever,
no one expected anything like what Yahweh and Yahshua planned,
until AFTER Yahweh revealed this thru Yahshua,
and only those to whom He revealed this know this in truth and reality/ experience.

Then what did Simeon believe...
Luke 2:27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, 28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, 29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: 30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, 31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; 32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

Read "Yeshua" for "salvation".... as per another thread.... it becomes more obvious.

 

[gadar perets]

Then what did Simeon believe...
Luke 2:27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, 28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, 29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: 30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, 31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; 32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

Read "Yeshua" for "salvation".... as per another thread.... it becomes more obvious.

Well, if we accept your interpretation, then Simeon was praying to YHWH while YHWH was in his arms!

 

[visionary]

Well, if we accept your interpretation, then Simeon was praying to YHWH while YHWH was in his arms!

John 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Simeon believed the TRUTH from TORAH and from Yahweh's Spirit,
as Yahweh's Word testifies of him, and others.

See for example/future revelation/ CJB on biblegateway:

vs 30:
CJB
for I have seen with my own eyes your yeshu‘ah,

or more fully in context:
Luke 2:29-31 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
29 “Now, Adonai, according to your word,
your servant is at peace as you let him go;
30 for I have seen with my own eyes your yeshu‘ah,
31 which you prepared in the presence of all peoples —

(footnote: YHWH and Yeshua/Yahshua may occur over 1000 times in the original, but were edited out of english !!!!!!!!!! )

Then what did Simeon believe...
Luke 2:27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, 28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, 29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: 30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, 31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; 32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

Read "Yeshua" for "salvation".... as per another thread.... it becomes more obvious.