Mariology

[jckstraw72]

Rebecca was heard weeping when the innocent newborns were killed by Herod. How did she know that happened? All of Heaven rejoices when one soul repents. How do they know? How do the saints in Heaven offer up our prayers to God as in Revelation, and how do they martyrs know they have not yet been revenged, as in Revelation?

 

[IamAdopted]

Rebecca was heard weeping when the innocent newborns were killed by Herod. How did she know that happened? All of Heaven rejoices when one soul repents. How do they know? How do the saints in Heaven offer up our prayers to God as in Revelation, and how do they martyrs know they have not yet been revenged, as in Revelation?

Show me where the saints are offering up prayers in heaven please. Show me the scriptures you speak of here.

 

[Oblio]

I respect my brothers and sisters in the Lord. I do not bow down to them.

And in Eastern cultures, from where Christinity was born and the Gospel written, bowing is a sign of respect. So you statement contradicts itself.

 

[jckstraw72]

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?



Revelation 5: 8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.



...now this can mean one of two things (or both):

1. the saints in Heaven are offering up their prayers for us -- since they are already in Heaven I doubt they need to be praying for themselves.

2. those in Heaven are presenting OUR prayers (us being the saints) to God .... either way those in Heaven are aware of our needs on earth.

 

[IamAdopted]

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?



Revelation 5: 8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.



...now this can mean one of two things (or both):

1. the saints in Heaven are offering up their prayers for us -- since they are already in Heaven I doubt they need to be praying for themselves.

2. those in Heaven are presenting OUR prayers (us being the saints) to God .... either way those in Heaven are aware of our needs on earth.

Rev 6:1 Then I saw when the Lamb broke one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures saying as with a voice of thunder, "Come."
Rev 6:2 I looked, and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.
Rev 6:3 When He broke the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, "Come."
Rev 6:4 And another, a red horse, went out; and to him who sat on it, it was granted to take peace from the earth, and that men would slay one another; and a great sword was given to him.
Rev 6:5 When He broke the third seal, I heard the third living creature saying, "Come." I looked, and behold, a black horse; and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand.
Rev 6:6 And I heard something like a voice in the center of the four living creatures saying, "A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not damage the oil and the wine."
Rev 6:7 When the Lamb broke the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, "Come."
Rev 6:8 I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth.
Rev 6:9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
Rev 6:10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
Rev 6:11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.
Rev 6:12 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood;
Rev 6:13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind.
Rev 6:14 The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;
Rev 6:17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

Here we see the seals being broken. Under the 5th seal we see an altar. After they ask this question the Lord gives them a white robe. He tells them they will REST a little longer. For the time has not come yet. For when the time comes and vengance of the Lord is done we all will reign with Him for all eternity. In the mean time they are resting not praying not working but resting. Do you see praying there? Do you see that they know anything that is actually happening? I see them wanting to know how long before we all reign with our King.

 

[IamAdopted]

Rev 5:7 And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.
Rev 5:8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

We see here that what was offered Was golden bowls full of incense. These are the prayers of His people. Our our included in these. For our prayers to Him are like incense. It seems to me as if all our prayers He keeps in the golden bottles because they mean so much to Him. We do not see people praying there either.

 

[Kepha]

UH HUH but when it comes to Man over God I must say that is quite a different story.

Man over God? Again, that is your faulty understanding of Saints hearing our Prayers. Nobody is above God here. You were for some reason trying to lead us to believe bowing was wrong. I showed you it wasn't. Now your trying to move on to another tactic.

So these graces you talk of? Where do we see this? Where do you see God gave humans power to hear prayers? God is all sufficient. He can hear and answer prayer all by His self.

Your missing the point. The Saints in Heaven belong to the same Church as those on Earth. They are not going to just suddenly stop praying for others because they are in Heaven. You admitted you pray for people. Do you tell others how wrong it is to ask you to pray for them. They don't need your prayers right. They can just go straight to God. He can handle it all by Himself. But we know Jesus wants us to Pray and likewise wants His Saints and Angels to also intercede on our behalf but ONLY by His Power alone.

We see here that what was offered Was golden bowls full of incense. These are the prayers of His people. Our our included in these. For our prayers to Him are like incense. It seems to me as if all our prayers He keeps in the golden bottles because they mean so much to Him. We do not see people praying there either.

Sorry, but you asked for proof and you got it. Those were Prayers of the the Saints being personally brought to God. As in we pray to them and they intercede by bringing them to God for us.

Here we see the seals being broken. Under the 5th seal we see an altar. After they ask this question the Lord gives them a white robe. He tells them they will REST a little longer. For the time has not come yet. For when the time comes and vengance of the Lord is done we all will reign with Him for all eternity. In the mean time they are resting not praying not working but resting. Do you see praying there? Do you see that they know anything that is actually happening? I see them wanting to know how long before we all reign with our King.

That verse does NOT mean they do not know what is happening. Remember this verse:

Mark 13:32 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my word shall not pass away. 32 But of that day or hour no man knoweth, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father.

It seems they are not suppose to know when this time is to come only. Has nothing to do with them not knowing what is going on in earth.

Not just God knows what's going on in Heaven.

Luke 15:10 So I say to you, there shall be joy before the angels of God upon one sinner doing penance

 

[jckstraw72]

the elders in Heaven are presenting the prayers to God ... so yes, they know of our prayers and/or are praying for us.

 

[Hentenza]

the elders in Heaven are presenting the prayers to God ... so yes, they know of our prayers and/or are praying for us.

Are the omniscient? How do you even know they can hear your prayers?

 

[IamAdopted]

Man over God? Again, that is your faulty understanding of Saints hearing our Prayers. Nobody is above God here. You were for some reason trying to lead us to believe bowing was wrong. I showed you it wasn't. Now your trying to move on to another tactic.


Your missing the point. The Saints in Heaven belong to the same Church as those on Earth. They are not going to just suddenly stop praying for others because they are in Heaven. You admitted you pray for people. Do you tell others how wrong it is to ask you to pray for them. They don't need your prayers right. They can just go straight to God. He can handle it all by Himself. But we know Jesus wants us to Pray and likewise wants His Saints and Angels to also intercede on our behalf but ONLY by His Power alone.



Sorry, but you asked for proof and you got it. Those were Prayers of the the Saints being personally brought to God. As in we pray to them and they intercede by bringing them to God for us.


That verse does NOT mean they do not know what is happening. Remember this verse:

Mark 13:32 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my word shall not pass away. 32 But of that day or hour no man knoweth, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father.

It seems they are not suppose to know when this time is to come only. Has nothing to do with them not knowing what is going on in earth.

Not just God knows what's going on in Heaven.

Luke 15:10 So I say to you, there shall be joy before the angels of God upon one sinner doing penance

That was not proof my friend. It was a poor stab at scripture to try and proove your point. They were not praying. Lets look at it a little more.

Rev 5:1 I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals.
Rev 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?"
Rev 5:3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it.
Rev 5:4 Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it;
Rev 5:5 and one of the elders *said to me, "Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals."
Rev 5:6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.
Rev 5:7 And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.
Rev 5:8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
Rev 5:9 And they *sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
Rev 5:10 "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."
Rev 5:11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands,
Rev 5:12 saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing."
Rev 5:13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
Rev 5:14 And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen." And the elders fell down and worshiped.

 

[Kepha]

That was not proof my friend. It was a poor stab at scripture to try and proove your point. They were not praying. Lets look at it a little more.

I-I-I need to sit down lay down now. You really blew my socks off with all that Scripture with the bold red, blue and purple lettering. I'm dumbfounded.

 

[jckstraw72]

Are the omniscient? How do you even know they can hear your prayers?

please see the Scripture i posted -- the verse in Revelation where saints in Heaven are presenting prayers to God.

 

[Kepha]

please see the Scripture i posted -- the verse in Revelation where saints in Heaven are presenting prayers to God.

The thing jckstraw is that if one is too use to the fact of there not being Saints praying for us by learning it from preachers and so forth, then verses like that, "just has to mean something else" to them and so will likely make it be something else. You and I have the same Tradition in this case to back us up.

 

[IamAdopted]

The thing jckstraw is that if one is too use to the fact of there not being Saints praying for us by learning it from preachers and so forth, then verses like that, "just has to mean something else" to them and so will likely make it be something else. You and I have the same Tradition in this case to back us up.

This is why I look to scripture and not tradition for scripture speaks for itself. We see when these saints are under the alter they are asking the Lord how much longer. They are not petitioning the Lord for us here on earth. We also see that it was an incense offering to the Lord that was offered and the incense were the prayers of the saints. We are all saints. How many prayers of the saints go up in an hour To the mighty God my Father?

 

[jckstraw72]

We also see that it was an incense offering to the Lord that was offered and the incense were the prayers of the saints. We are all saints. How many prayers of the saints go up in an hour To the mighty God my Father?

exactly -- those in Heaven are presenting our prayers to God -- they know what our prayers are.

 

[IamAdopted]

exactly -- those in Heaven are presenting our prayers to God -- they know what our prayers are.

They are jars filled with our prayers friend. Not the people hearing us and taking our prayer to God . For God hears the prayers of His people. He is not deaf. He not only hears our prayers but He answers our prayers. Sometimes even before we can say Amen. For God my Father is a loving and Faithful Father that even knows how many hairs are on my head and He cares for every little detail of my Life. We communicate with each other and walk closely. I go directly to Him in Prayer. For He sees all and knows all. He is the only one that scripture ever talks about knowing and seeing all.

 

[jckstraw72]

They are jars filled with our prayers friend. Not the people hearing us and taking our prayer to God .

please read the passage -- the elders are presenting our prayers to God.

 

[IamAdopted]

please read the passage -- the elders are presenting our prayers to God.

Read again.

Rev 5:8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

 

[jckstraw72]

isnt that exactly what i said? the elders have our prayers .... im not seeing where the confusion is.

 

[Hentenza]

isnt that exactly what i said? the elders have our prayers .... im not seeing where the confusion is.

The confusion comes from your interpretation that the prayers in the verse must be ALL the prayers that human have prayed to God. The prayers to God have been answered if it is part of His plan. If they are not part of His plan then those prayers have NOT been answered. The problem with your argument is fourfold.
First, regarding verse 8, can the prayers be authored by those who are already in heaven? It doesn't say. There are different interpretations on exactly who the saints are because their identity can't be precisely demonstrated; after all, Revelation is a highly symbolic book. Therefore, if it cannot be conclusively demonstrated who they are, then it cannot be conclusively demonstrated whose prayers they are, either. Nevertheless, verse 9 says "they sang a new song." Who is the "they"? It would have to be either the four living creatures and/or the 24 elders since "prayers of the saints" don't sing, "creatures" and "elders" do the singing.
In verse 11-12 the angels, the creatures, and the elders who were all around the throne (which means they are in heaven) were praising God directly. In verse 13 it says every created thing in heaven and earth was praising God, then the elders fell down and worshiped, v. 14.
Second, just because those in heaven can hear the prayers of those on Earth does not mean that is okay to pray to saints. If they can hear the prayers of people it is because God grants that to them. Think about it. Can those in heaven hear the prayers uttered without speech? Can they read minds? It is only God who knows all things and only God can grant anyone to hear or know what the prayers are of those who pray in silence. Let's not give the saints superhuman powers similar to omniscience. Nevertheless, all the text is saying is that they can hear the praise and worship of God. It does not say that they are to be prayed to, nor does it imply praying to them is permitted. All it says is that they can hear the prayers and praise. There is nothing suggesting that those on Earth are requesting the prayers or intercession of those in heaven. Nothing like this is in the text or even hinted at.
Third, even if the case can be made that prayers are authored in heaven, and that those prayers are mingled with the prayers of those from Earth, it still does not justify those on Earth praying to those in heaven. At best, all that we can say is that the prayers of those in heaven and the prayers of those on Earth are mingled. To say any more than that is to read into the Scripture what is not there.
Fourth, can the saints in heaven hear every prayer of every creature all the time? We don't know what it is like so we conclude it's possible. It is an argument based on what do don't know, not what we do know. This is a very very weak way of trying to present a position. The ones that belive this dogma must infer it from scripture and read into the text in order to support its error.

There is no biblical teaching at all that states we are to pray to those who once were alive on earth and are now in heaven. Revelation, the same book used to justify this position says the following:
Revelation 9:10:
"And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy,"



John wants to bow the knee and worship the angel. But the angel tells him not to do that because he is a fellow creature. If the angel says that he is a fellow creature like John, and that John is not to bow to him, then neither should anyone else bow to an angel, or any creature so as to offer worship. Worship includes prayer. Therefore, no one should pray to any created thing.
Biblically, prayer is always offered to God, and is a form of worship. All religions view prayer as an act of worship to their gods since they contain petitions, confession of sin, requests of intercession, etc., things which are received and answered by God, not by created things. Also, prayer is not the same thing as talking to someone face-to-face. Prayer is a humble petition to the Lord in and not to a friend who's in the same room with you or on the other end of the phone -- or in heaven. Prayer is offered to God, never to any created thing. Prayer should be offered only to God.