Mariology

[IamAdopted]

isnt that exactly what i said? the elders have our prayers .... im not seeing where the confusion is.

They are worshiping God and this is and incense offering to God. Our prayers are as incense to the Lord. These Jars are what held the prayer of the saints. Not the Elders. This book reveals heaven to us. It also reveals future events.

 

[jckstraw72]

the Elders are holding the jars, bringing them to God ...

 

[Oblio]

Worship includes prayer. Therefore, no one should pray to any created thing.
Biblically, prayer is always offered to God, and is a form of worship.

The Bible says otherwise. There are hundreds of verses that use pray that are NOT instances of worship (a term neutered by Protestants BTW), prayer is neither worship alone, nor is it directed to God alone, at least not in the Bible.

 

[Kepha]

The confusion comes from your interpretation that the prayers in the verse must be ALL the prayers that human have prayed to God. The prayers to God have been answered if it is part of His plan. If they are not part of His plan then those prayers have NOT been answered. The problem with your argument is fourfold.

God answers all prayers with an either yes, no or later.
Just because a prayer is not answered the way you want it answered doesn't mean they go unanswered by God.

First, regarding verse 8, can the prayers be authored by those who are already in heaven? It doesn't say. There are different interpretations on exactly who the saints are because their identity can't be precisely demonstrated; after all, Revelation is a highly symbolic book.

Symbolic yes. Hence the actual bringing the bowl of Prayers is substituted for the act of Praying for the behalf of Saints who have prayed to those in Heaven.

Therefore, if it cannot be conclusively demonstrated who they are, then it cannot be conclusively demonstrated whose prayers they are, either.

Saints are those who are set apart for God. Saints are everywhere but in the Bible, it always spoke about those on earth when referring to them especially. So the Prayers that those in Heaven are bringing to God, are the Prayers of those Consecrated or set apart for God here on earth.

For the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ" (Ephesians 4:12).

"But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints" (Ephesians 5:3).

Acts 9:32 "Now as Peter was traveling through all those regions, he came down also to the saints who lived at Lydda"

Acts 26:10 "And this is just what I did in Jerusalem; not only did I lock up many of the saints in prisons .."

just because those in heaven can hear the prayers of those on Earth does not mean that is okay to pray to saints. If they can hear the prayers of people it is because God grants that to them. Think about it. Can those in heaven hear the prayers uttered without speech? Can they read minds? It is only God who knows all things and only God can grant anyone to hear or know what the prayers are of those who pray in silence. Let's not give the saints superhuman powers similar to omniscience.

Your doing it again. Limiting God's power to be unable to allow those in Heaven to hear our Prayers as well. As I said before. God wants us all who are supposed to belong to the Body of Christ, to assist one another and there is not one Scripture verse to say it is against God's Will. It is a pious act and will always be whether here or in Heaven.

Nevertheless, all the text is saying is that they can hear the praise and worship of God. It does not say that they are to be prayed to, nor does it imply praying to them is permitted.

It's saying they are bringing them to God. They must have received them to bring them to God in the first place. This is not so tough to see here.

John wants to bow the knee and worship the angel. But the angel tells him not to do that because he is a fellow creature. If the angel says that he is a fellow creature like John, and that John is not to bow to him, then neither should anyone else bow to an angel, or any creature so as to offer worship. Worship includes prayer.

Man what site did you copy all this from. Maybe just send the link instead if you are going to copy and paste such a vast amount. Your quotes are all gapped and strange looking which leads me to believe these are not your own words.
And it really makes me laugh when I constantly see people taking verses depicting a negative against bowing to others when that word worship is included as if you're intentionally trying to miss the entire point of what is being said.

Biblically, prayer is always offered to God, and is a form of worship.

You seem to miss something. Prayers are done through the saints by us asking them to Pray for us too. So what we ask we ALL know will ONLY be done by the Will of God. If I ask the Blessed Mother for intercession, I know She does so according to God. If you ask for my intercession on earth as in for me to pray for you, then you likewise know what you ask, will be done only by God's will and not mine.

Wherever you got all this nonsense from, obviously doesn't know what he's talking about or like in most cases, was taught praying to those in Heaven is wrong so likewise will refuse to see it isn't against Scripture when it comes down to it so will twist definitions to suit his situation.

Prayer is not always done in worship. It simply means to ask:

Genesis 13:8 “And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdmen and thy herdmen; for we be brethren.”

Acts 8:34 “And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man ?”

 

[IamAdopted]

Your doing it again. Limiting God's power to able those in Heaven to hear our Prayers as well. As I said before. God wants us all who are supposed to belong to the Body of Christ, to assist one another and there is not one Scripture verse to say it is against God's Will. It is a pious act and will always be whether here or in Heaven.

You are limiting God with what you say . We don't limit God. We know that He is self sufficient. He can hear and be everywhere all at once. We know that we can go to our Father at anytime and He hears us. We do not rely upon man either still walking on earth or not. We rely upon our mighty God. How do you not know that these prayers that are being offered are not prayers already answered? And this is why there are incense to our God? For the prayers of His people are a sweet aroma to my Father. He delights in His people. You do not see the elders speaking do you? We see the prayers are in golden bowls. Being offered as and incense offering to My God.

 

[IamAdopted]

Another thought. You don't see that the prayers are being petitioned before God.

 

[racer]

No what you are saying is that because we follow the Traditions of the Church, we don't have independent thinking, and therefore no free will..look at the convo, and tell me that is NOT what are you are trying to say..

Oh, so then you admit that you do self-interpret? Now, that's refreshing.

 

[Kepha]

You are limiting God with what you say . We don't limit God.

I am? Please show me where I am limiting God's power.

You do not see the elders speaking do you? We see the prayers are in golden bowls. Being offered as and incense offering to My God.

Their actions speak loud enough for me.

And incense offering? Wow.

 

[Kepha]

Oh, so then you admit that you do self-interpret? Now, that's refreshing.

Self interpreting is fine so long as one stays within the Dogmas. You all do this as well (Praying for the Dead is wrong therefor it must mean something else) though you have learned from men who interpretated it first for you.

 

[racer]

Self interpreting is fine so long as one stays within the Dogmas. You all do this as well (Praying for the Dead is wrong therefor it must mean something else) though you have learned from men who interpretated it first for you.

The only people who deny "self-interpretation" are Catholics and EOs.

 

[IamAdopted]

I am? Please show me where I am limiting God's power.


Their actions speak loud enough for me.

And incense offering? Wow.

You limit God by assuming that all things have to go through men to get to God. This is just simply not true. Same with what you call self interpretation. You say we have be infallable in our hearing. Making the tradtion the way to interpret scripture. Gods Spirit does not need mens tradtions to open Gods peoples eyes to His word so that we may understand His word. For we see in scripture that when Jesus rose from the dead He opened the eyes of His disciples to understand scripture. For it is the Holy Spirit that reveals scripture to us and not traditions set down from man. This is the limitations you put on God. Just some of them. I could list more.

 

[Hentenza]

God answers all prayers with an either yes, no or later.
Just because a prayer is not answered the way you want it answered doesn't mean they go unanswered by God.


Symbolic yes. Hence the actual bringing the bowl of Prayers is substituted for the act of Praying for the behalf of Saints who have prayed to those in Heaven.


Saints are those who are set apart for God. Saints are everywhere but in the Bible, it always spoke about those on earth when referring to them especially. So the Prayers that those in Heaven are bringing to God, are the Prayers of those Consecrated or set apart for God here on earth.

For the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ" (Ephesians 4:12).

"But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints" (Ephesians 5:3).

Acts 9:32 "Now as Peter was traveling through all those regions, he came down also to the saints who lived at Lydda"

Acts 26:10 "And this is just what I did in Jerusalem; not only did I lock up many of the saints in prisons .."



Your doing it again. Limiting God's power to be unable to allow those in Heaven to hear our Prayers as well. As I said before. God wants us all who are supposed to belong to the Body of Christ, to assist one another and there is not one Scripture verse to say it is against God's Will. It is a pious act and will always be whether here or in Heaven.



It's saying they are bringing them to God. They must have received them to bring them to God in the first place. This is not so tough to see here.


Man what site did you copy all this from. Maybe just send the link instead if you are going to copy and paste such a vast amount. Your quotes are all gapped and strange looking which leads me to believe these are not your own words.
And it really makes me laugh when I constantly see people taking verses depicting a negative against bowing to others when that word worship is included as if you're intentionally trying to miss the entire point of what is being said.



You seem to miss something. Prayers are done through the saints by us asking them to Pray for us too. So what we ask we ALL know will ONLY be done by the Will of God. If I ask the Blessed Mother for intercession, I know She does so according to God. If you ask for my intercession on earth as in for me to pray for you, then you likewise know what you ask, will be done only by God's will and not mine.

Wherever you got all this nonsense from, obviously doesn't know what he's talking about or like in most cases, was taught praying to those in Heaven is wrong so likewise will refuse to see it isn't against Scripture when it comes down to it so will twist definitions to suit his situation.

Prayer is not always done in worship. It simply means to ask:

Genesis 13:8 “And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdmen and thy herdmen; for we be brethren.”

Acts 8:34 “And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man ?”

You are in fact limiting God by saying that He is incapable of hearing our prayers on his own and therefore, needing a heavenly intercessor, other than Jesus, to make sure that He is reminded or to have more "clout" with Him. That is blatantly unbiblical.
1 Timothy 2:5, "5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus", is clear as to who the only intercessor is. This simple verse explains it all. If Jesus is the only heavenly intercessor, then the saints or Mary cannot be. The word of God does not contradict itself.
In addition, the bible tells us that Jesus Hinself is interceeding for us before the Father. Hebrews 7:25, "25Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them." No other heavenly intercessor is needed.
Another point is Romans 8:26-27, "26In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God." These verses shows the Holy Spirit is also interceeding for us. With the 2nd and 3rd Godhead already inteceeding for us, what possible need would there be for Mary or the saints to interceed for us?
You need to also consider the fact that the only time in the bible where a saint was spoken to, in 1 Samuel 28:7-19, Samuel was not exactly happy at being disturbed.



BTW, you need to stop accusing others of cutting and pasting. I will always use quotes when the words are not mine.

 

[jckstraw72]

The only people who deny "self-interpretation" are Catholics and EOs.

that would be bc we dont do it.

 

[racer]

that would be bc we dont do it.

 

[jckstraw72]

when i want ot know what a verse means i dont decide for myself, i ask my priest what the Church teaches, bc what i think doesnt mean anything.

 

[Hentenza]

That is sad. God gave us the ability to think and free will. Are you saying this is wrong.

 

[Trento]

That is sad. God gave us the ability to think and free will. Are you saying this is wrong.

How many cults and interpretations have resulted from this splitting the body of Christ into thousands of pieces contradicting the very Scriptures that all true Christians claim to reverence ?
“There are almost as many sects and beliefs as there are heads; this one will not admit Baptism; that one rejects the Sacrament of the altar; another places another world between the present one and the day of judgment; some teach that Jesus Christ is not God. There is not an individual, however clownish he may be, who does not claim to be inspired by the Holy Ghost, and who does not put forth as prophecies his ravings and dreams.”

Martin Luther
The Facts about Luther, 356​

 

[Trento]

You are in fact limiting God by saying that He is incapable of hearing our prayers on his own and therefore, needing a heavenly intercessor, other than Jesus, to make sure that He is reminded or to have more "clout" with Him. That is blatantly unbiblical.
.

Does God intervene for His saints? How many examples do you want? Start with Maureen Digan, of Roslindale, Massachusetts.

In March 1981, Maureen Digan, of Roslindale, Massachusetts, her husband, son, and Fr. Seraphim Michalenko, MIC (a priest of the Congregation of Marians of the Immaculate Conception), traveled to St. Faustina's tomb at the Shrine of The Divine Mercy outside of Krakow, Poland.

From her early teens, Maureen suffered from an incurable illness -- and she had all but given up hope that she could ever be rid of it. Milroy's Disease, a form of lymphedema, had already claimed one of her legs and doctors recommended amputating the other. Friends and relations suggested she should pray and put her trust in God. But Maureen could not understand why God had allowed her to get this disease in the first place, and had lost her faith completely.
At Faustina's tomb, Maureen prayed for St. Faustina's intercession and immediately felt the pain leave her and the swelling in her leg going down. In fact, Maureen later said she thought she was losing her mind. But upon the doctors' examination, they stated that Maureen's incurable ailment had disappeared. After exhaustive examination by medical professionals, the Church declared the healing a miracle through Saint Faustina's intercession.

 

[Hentenza]

How many cults and interpretations have resulted from this splitting the body of Christ into thousands of pieces contradicting the very Scriptures that all true Christians claim to reverence ?
“There are almost as many sects and beliefs as there are heads; this one will not admit Baptism; that one rejects the Sacrament of the altar; another places another world between the present one and the day of judgment; some teach that Jesus Christ is not God. There is not an individual, however clownish he may be, who does not claim to be inspired by the Holy Ghost, and who does not put forth as prophecies his ravings and dreams.”

Martin Luther
The Facts about Luther, 356​

With the RCC beginning the denomination trend.

 

[jckstraw72]

God gave us the ability to think and free will. Are you saying this is wrong.

God didnt give me the authority to decide truth. He gave me the ability to humbly (ideally) accept what He has ordained despite what my own proud opinions may tell me.