Mariolatry?

dzheremi · Jul 30, 2024

What is it with the Nestorians around here? They just can't wait to tell on themselves, because they think their position is so self-evidently true!

Nestorianism is shameful, people. If you believe that "Mary gave birth to Christ's human nature, not His divinity" is in any way a sound argument, you should be ashamed to be this theologically/Christologically and historically ignorant. It doesn't even make logical sense; no one gives birth to natures in the first place. St. Mary is birth-giver to GOD, not to this or that nature. Such a radical disjunction between the divine and human in Christ is completely unacceptable. We kinda had a giant argument over exactly this 1,593 years ago, and then again 1,573 years ago. Catch up!

RandyPNW · Jul 30, 2024

Jipsah said:
Ah, so you do believe that the Blessed Virgin is the Mother of God. Glad we got that sorted out.
Happy I could be of help!

You've missed the point, and I can't help you with that.

jas3 · Jul 30, 2024

Jipsah said:
OK, gimme a sanity check here. The folks that I'm seeing who take exception to referring to the Blessed Virgin as the Mother of God. seem to also take exception to saying "Jesus is God". Is that just me, or what?

The most charitable explanation I can think of is that they're not well-versed in the concepts of person, nature, substance, and will, and that as a result they believe they can hold to a kind of crypto-Nestorianism that would both have Jesus as God but would posit the Blessed Virgin as having borne in her womb and given birth to something less than God. How exactly that avoids denying the divinity of our Lord is left as an exercise to the reader, I guess.

But then, if someone doesn't have a grasp of the important concepts in the early christological controversies, he really has no business arguing over those controversies' conclusions.

RandyPNW · Jul 30, 2024

The Liturgist said:
By the way @Jipsah my pious and excellent friend, as a high church Anglican do you find the suggestion that the proper veneration of the Theotokos is specific to Roman Catholics as annoying as I find it?

I think it would be easier for non-Catholics to use the term if it wasn't so often translated as something other than Mother of God the Son. When it is translated simply as Mother of God, and Catholics use the term to support the notion that Mary was super-special, then Protestants may want to shy away from using the term. It is the historical baggage from Catholic use that is the problem--not the term.

What annoys me is that Protestants freely admit Mary is just "one of us," not sinless but in need of a Savior like the rest of us, is not to be prayed to, and does not have the title conferred on her, "Queen of Heaven." Nor was she a perpetual virgin. She isn't on a throne, unless it is the kind of throne any of us may sit on when we overcome sin in our lives.

dzheremi · Jul 30, 2024

That makes no sense, Randy. I'm a non-Catholic and I have no problem using either Theotokos or the equivalent of "Mother of God" in my Church's traditional language (ethmav emefnouti). The "historical baggage" you mention from the RC use of the term is specific to whatever form of Protestantism you happen to endorse (our Anglican friend Jipsah clearly has no such problem with the title), not to non-Catholics in general. (This goes to The Liturgist's point about how irritating it is to have some Protestants treat this as a "Roman Catholic" topic when it really isn't. Rome didn't invent veneration of the Theotokos, and the earliest extant hymn we know of that specifically addresses St. Mary as Theotokos is found in a manuscript of a Coptic -- that is to say, Egyptian -- Nativity liturgy dated to c. 250 AD.)

RandyPNW · Jul 30, 2024

dzheremi said:
That makes no sense, Randy. I'm a non-Catholic and I have no problem using either Theotokos or the equivalent of "Mother of God" in my Church's traditional language (ethmav emefnouti). The "historical baggage" you mention from the RC use of the term is specific to whatever form of Protestantism you happen to endorse (our Anglican friend Jipsah clearly has no such problem with the title), not to non-Catholics in general. (This goes to The Liturgist's point about how irritating it is to have some Protestants treat this as a "Roman Catholic" topic when it really isn't. Rome didn't invent veneration of the Theotokos, and the earliest extant hymn we know of that specifically addresses St. Mary as Theotokos is found in a manuscript of a Coptic -- that is to say, Egyptian -- Nativity liturgy dated to c. 250 AD.)

It makes a lot of sense to me, brother. In my experience Catholics venerate Mary, and use the title "Mother of God" for much more than stating she mothered Jesus. She is exalted far above humanity as almost a kind of demi-god. If that makes no sense to you, I wonder why?

As I said, I don't personally have a problem with the term. I think I've made that very clear. It's how Catholics use the term in reference to Mary as "Queen of Heaven" that gives me, as a former Lutheran, a problem. Again, why should you have difficulty understanding this? Is it because you're judging how I feel based on your own experience?

I believe I began this thread with a concern about how Catholics virtually worship Mary by praying to her, etc. I don't believe I even initially connected their use of "Mother of God" with the matter? So it is ancillary to the main point, and I would prefer that you see this smaller issue in that light.

Oh yes, and I do understand that Catholics do not actually *worship* Mary. Thank God! However, they attribute far more to her than do the Scriptures, as I read them.

Xeno.of.athens · Jul 30, 2024

RandyPNW said:
I've not studied this, but can you refer me to just one example of a church father suggesting we should pray to the man Jesus?

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
(1 Timothy 2:5 RSV)

RandyPNW · Jul 30, 2024

Xeno.of.athens said:
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
(1 Timothy 2:5 RSV)

I was referring to his claim that all the church fathers direct us to pray to Jesus, instead of just in his name. I've not studied this, and wish to look at what he is specifically referring to. I'm open.

Xeno.of.athens · Jul 30, 2024

RandyPNW said:
I was referring to his claim that all the church fathers direct us to pray to Jesus, instead of just in his name. I've not studied this, and wish to look at what he is specifically referring to. I'm open.

If you have not researched this topic and still accuse Catholics of idolatry, then why level such an accusation without being fully informed of the facts?

Xeno.of.athens · Jul 30, 2024

In the mass Catholics pray these things:

Glory to God in the highest,

and peace to His people on earth.

Lord God, heavenly King,

Almighty God and Father,

we worship You, we give You thanks,

we praise You for Your glory.

Lord Jesus Christ,

only Son of the Father,

Lord God, Lamb of God,

You take away the sin of the world:

have mercy on us;

You are seated at the right hand of the Father:

receive our prayer.

For You alone are the Holy One,

You alone are the Lord,

You alone are the Most High,

Jesus Christ, with the Holy Spirit,

in the glory of the Father.

Amen.

It is right and proper to pray to Jesus Christ our Lord and God.

Joseph101 · Jul 31, 2024

hislegacy said:
Sorry, that is certainly tradition, but is absolutely no place in scripture.

Praying to Mary also contradicts 1 Timothy 2:5

For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

Although “there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 2:5), all believers act as mediators in union with Christ. In the context of 1 Timothy 2:1-4, Paul recommends praying for everyone and for authorities, indicating the importance of prayer and mediation. It teaches the importance of praying for each other and then teaches that this prayer is only effective because we are united to the only mediator: Christ.

Jesus is the only mediator but we must all mediate in (united with) his mediation. The Virgin Mary and the saints are not another path of mediation. Their mediation is possible because they are in Christ, because they are one with him.

RandyPNW · Jul 31, 2024

No matter how I or anybody feels, I don't find it wrong to speak directly to Jesus. When we pray in the Spirit to God, He can instantly communicate to the Son. However, the Son, by definition, is a limited expression of Deity and is a different expression of God the Father as God the Son.

Xeno.of.athens said:
If you have not researched this topic and still accuse Catholics of idolatry, then why level such an accusation without being fully informed of the facts?

Different set of facts. I don't conflate them.

The Liturgist · Jul 31, 2024

RandyPNW said:
No matter how I or anybody feels, I don't find it wrong to speak directly to Jesus. When we pray in the Spirit to God, He can instantly communicate to the Son. However, the Son, by definition, is

So you deny the full Deity of Jesus Christ, the coequality of persons in the Holy Trinity,
and reject the Nicene Creed?

Because believing in those things rules out the idea that God would need to communicate our prayers to the Son.

Xeno.of.athens · Jul 31, 2024

RandyPNW said:
Different set of facts. I don't conflate them.

You mentioned previously that you were not fully acquainted with the facts, so how can we trust that you have a comprehensive understanding of this new set of facts?

Always in His Presence · Jul 31, 2024

Jipsah said:
I don't see any reason not to. They certainly seem to be represented as alive in Heaven, and there seems to be sufficient Scriptural reson to believe that at least some of them are privy to the prayers of those still here. So why not ask them to pray for us?

There is the difference between our beliefs then.

For me personally, there are zero instructions or examples of people asking the dead to pray for them in Holy Scripture.

St. Paul stated it very plainly in 1 Tim that there is only one. And I believe him.

Always in His Presence · Jul 31, 2024

Joseph101 said:
Although “there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 2:5), all believers act as mediators in union with Christ. In the context of 1 Timothy 2:1-4, Paul recommends praying for everyone and for authorities, indicating the importance of prayer and mediation. It teaches the importance of praying for each other and then teaches that this prayer is only effective because we are united to the only mediator: Christ.

There is a difference between praying FOR someone and praying TO someone. I have direct communications with God through Jesus Christ. He hears me, He meditates on my behalf.

1 John 5:14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.

I have this confidence.

Joseph101 said:
Jesus is the only mediator but we must all mediate in (united with) his mediation. The Virgin Mary and the saints are not another path of mediation. Their mediation is possible because they are in Christ, because they are one with him.

I am one with Christ also.

Eph 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. 19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,

d taylor · Jul 31, 2024

Jipsah said:
Why, are you gonna try to argue that Jesus Christ isn't God?

-

Why do you elevate Mary to a god, do you pray to her. So there was not just one Person without sin but actually two.

Joseph101 · Jul 31, 2024

hislegacy said:
There is a difference between praying FOR someone and praying TO someone. I have direct communications with God through Jesus Christ. He hears me, He meditates on my behalf.

Exact. In this sense, anyone can intercede before God for another person, and this in no way obscures or diminishes the mediation and reconciliation brought by Jesus Christ, quite the opposite. And it is in this sense that Mary is an intercessor, and she is par excellence, since she is the one who was most united to the Incarnate Word, being his own Mother.

Always in His Presence · Jul 31, 2024

Joseph101 said:
Exact. In this sense, anyone can intercede before God for another person, and this in no way obscures or diminishes the mediation and reconciliation brought by Jesus Christ, quite the opposite. And it is in this sense that Mary is an intercessor, and she is par excellence, since she is the one who was most united to the Incarnate Word, being his own Mother.

We've come to an impasse - God's best to you.

RandyPNW · Jul 31, 2024

Xeno.of.athens said:
You mentioned previously that you were not fully acquainted with the facts, so how can we trust that you have a comprehensive understanding of this new set of facts?

I may know Paul well, but Peter not so much. Some of us are not Renaissance Men, who know much about everything--the sun, moon, and the stars. I have limited brain capacity--I trust you will understand?

You will always find flaws in me. I will always find flaws in you. Let's not let my view that Catholics have flaws get in the way of Christian fellowship. I find as much to like about Catholics as I find flaws in their beliefs.

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