Marilyn McCord Adams and the Problem of Hell

[Jipsah]

I believe this verse is positive and not negative and clearly says that when Christ finally overcomes all separation from God, we will all be in subjection to Christ in the same way that Christ places himself in subjection to the Father, IOW in a willing and loving obedience.

Uh, yeah. Whoever offered the "might" rendering obviously didn't put a lot of thought into what they were typing.

 

[Saint Steven]

Secuse me, but isn't the idea that we're all eaten up with sin and desperately in need of saving the view of pretty much every Christian sect ever? What am I missing here?

Well, if that's how he created us, then hopefully he can accept us as we are. If it is as you say, then he made us that way for a good reason. Some would say, so that he could incinerate us. But only a psychopathic sadist would claim that was a good reason.

I would like to think that at the end of that day in creation that God didn't look at us and shake his head saying, "Oh well, they are totally depraved, now what?", but rather looked at all he had created and said, "It is good!"

Saint Steven said: ↑
I think it is parody time again.
(parody)
Human: Hello Father God, how are you today?
God: I'm not talking to you.
Human: How come?
God: Isn't it obvious? You are totally depraved.
Human: But you created me this way, right?
God: Yes, that is correct.
Human: If you created me this way, why can't you accept me as I am?
God: That's a very good question. Let me give that some thought.

 

[Der Alte]

You can't just isolate the word 'may' like that and say that it's conditional. Let's look at the entire verse:
"When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to the one who put all things in subjection under him, so that God may be all in all."
1 Corinthians 15:28
Your novel interpretation is that this is saying:
"When Christ's mediatorial reign ends, all things will be subject to God, giving all authority to God, and He might be “all in all."
But this, of course, makes no sense. Once "all things are in subjection under him" then He will be 'all in all' by definition. May is used to indicate that the subjugation must come first. This then allows the universal reconciliation to happen.

Rubbish! If you have questions or comments about what I post why not have the courtesy to direct them to me rather than talking about me behind my back?. See Matthew 18:15-17
Here you did exactly what you accused me of. You isolated one verse and ignored these several verses I posted.
Anyone can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting isolated verses out-of-context as you have done.
In these verses Paul certainly is not saying that everyone will be saved, the righteous and the unrighteous alike, no matter what, even after death.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men
(10) nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
(19) The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;
(20) idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions
(21) and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5
(5) For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1 Corinthians 3:17
(17) If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy that person; for God's temple is sacred, and you together are that temple.​

 

[Hmm]

Rubbish! If you have questions or comments about what I post why not have the courtesy to direct them to me rather than talking about me behind my back?

What! The comment you quoted was from a reply from me to you

 

[Der Alte]

Uh, yeah. Whoever offered the "might" rendering obviously didn't put a lot of thought into what they were typing.

Uh no! I showed from other verses where Paul spoke about God's mercy he used the "active indicative" mood, which means "will"/"shall" show mercy, NOT the subjunctive mood, which means "might" or "may" show mercy as he did in Romans 11:32 and 1 Corinthians 15:28.

 

[misput]

Secuse me, but isn't the idea that we're all eaten up with sin and desperately in need of saving the view of pretty much every Christian sect ever? What am I missing here?

Nothing, God made us human so we could choose good or bad. Can you think of any other way? Angels, Demons, robots equal no choice. He knew what we would do so he gave us a way out and here is where the problems start. Every one thinks they know the beginning and end of Gods judgement but we do not. So I suggest we let God do the judging and we just concentrate on being His faithful child.

 

[Hmm]

So I suggest we let God do the judging and we just concentrate on being His faithful child.

The way we think of God is very important though. I agree that we should be a faithful child but this simply won't be possible if our relationship with God is based on fear of eternal torment.

 

[Der Alte]

What! The comment you quoted was from a reply from me to you

My bad I confused two posts.

 

[Hmm]

My bad I confused two posts.

No worries, easily done in the heat of battle!

 

[ozso]

Rubbish! If you have questions or comments about what I post why not have the courtesy to direct them to me rather than talking about me behind my back?. See Matthew 18:15-17

I think if this was treated as a conversation between brothers, rather than as a fight against enemies, there wouldn't be any need to apply Matthew 18:15-17

 

[misput]

The way we think of God is very important though. I agree that we should be a faithful child but this simply won't be possible if our relationship with God is based on fear of eternal torment.

Why are you afraid of God? "fear of God is the beginning of wisdom", "fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge" Psalms. Are you a new believer?

 

[misput]

We don't understand The Lords judgement in this life (why do bad things happen to good people?) let alone in the life after death. Have faith, God loves you!

 

[Peter J Barban]

Sounds like a Reformed bias. At the end of each day of creation God said it was good. Did he change his mind?

The earth was good at creation, but it fell when man fell. The earth currently is in bondage to decay. The earth is no longer good.

Romans 8:18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.

 

[ozso]

The earth was good at creation, but it fell when man fell. The earth currently is in bondage to decay. The earth is no longer good.

Romans 8:18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.

Jesus fixed man's fall.

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 1 Corinthians 15:22

 

[Hmm]

Why are you afraid of God? "fear of God is the beginning of wisdom", "fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge" Psalms. Are you a new believer?

I'm not afraid of God but I would be if I thought He would send me to an eternal hell if my faith wasn't up to scratch at the moment of my death.

How about you? Do you believe that that is what would happen? If you do, does this mean that you afraid of Him?

 

[Peter J Barban]

Jesus fixed man's fall.

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 1 Corinthians 15:22

Very clearly man is not completely fixed yet and probably won't be until we receive resurrection bodies. Even the quote "in Christ all will be made alive" is future tense.

By the way, your point seems picayune to the question of whether the earth is as good as it was at creation.

 

[ozso]

Very clearly man is not completely fixed yet and probably won't be until we receive resurrection bodies. Even the quote "in Christ all will be made alive" is future tense.

By the way, your point seems picayune to the question of whether the earth is as good as it was at creation.

Thanks.

 

[misput]

I'm not afraid of God but I would be if I thought He would send me to an eternal hell if my faith wasn't up to scratch at the moment of my death.

How about you? Do you believe that that is what would happen? If you do, does this mean that you afraid of Him?

"Perfect love casts out fear". If you are not afraid of God, surely you do not believe He would send you to hell in a time of weakness even if you believed there is such a place and understood what it is. We do not know the details of heaven or hell but we trust God. God is the Judge, not us. That is why we are warned to judge righteously, which means with lots of love, mercy and forgiveness, you know, like God.

 

[Peter J Barban]

Marilyn McCord Adams, who was a philosopher and Episcopal priest, developed an argument to refute ECT (eternal conscious torment). Her argument is candidly appropriated from the logical problem of evil by J.L. Mackie.

She begins with two premises
G: God exists, and is essentially omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good
H: Some created persons will be consigned to hell forever

The argument:
1. If God existed and were omnipotent, then God would be able to avoid H
2. If God existed and were omniscient, then God would know how to avoid H
3. If God existed and were perfectly good, then God would want to avoid H
Conclusion: If G; then not-H
(If God exists, and is essentially omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good; then it is not the case that some created persons will be consigned to hell forever)

This is my first time seeing this argument, so I am curious what y'all think.

https://cpb-us-w2.wpmucdn.com/campu...l-A-Problem-of-Evil-for-Christians-pslyys.pdf

Marilyn McCord Adams - Wikipedia

Ultimately this theory depends on its definition of "good". The theory's definition is not the same as the Bible's definition. A theory lives and dies on its unexpressed (hidden) assumptions. Exactly what is the source of this theory's assumption of good?

 

[public hermit]

Ultimately this theory depends on its definition of "good". The theory's definition is not the same as the Bible's definition. A theory lives and dies on its unexpressed (hidden) assumptions. Exactly what is the source of this theory's assumption of good?

That's a good question. From Adams:

'God is good to a created person p iff God guarantees to p a life that is a great good to p on the whole, and one in which p's participation in deep and horrendous evils (if any) is defeated within the context of p's life',

where

'Evil is horrendous' iff 'Participation in e by p (either as a victim or a perpetrator) gives everyone prima facie reason to believe that p's life can-not (given its inclusion of e) be a great good to p on the whole

Adams doesn't approach goodness as some abstract quality, but in relation to each created person. In this sense, God is good to a person if and only if the evils of that person's life (whether as perpetraitor or victim) are ultimately defeated.

Again Adams:

"The traditional hell is a paradigm horror, one which offers not merely prima facie but conclusive reason to believe that the life of the damned cannot be a great good to them on the whole. Any person who suffers eternal punishment in the traditional hell will, on the contrary, be one within whose life good is engulfed and/or defeated by evils."

Of course, the idea is that a good God would ensure all evil is defeated in such a way that the telos of each life is a great good since God is perfectly good. You know, God wins over evil since each life is good in sum. If evil succeeds in ensuring the telos of any life is evil, God loses as does that individual.

And, Adams believes union with God is the only thing that can defeat horrendous evils which threaten to make one's life, as a whole, defeated by evil.