Marilyn McCord Adams and the Problem of Hell

[ozso]

I have just answered elements of this is new post. I will quote it here:

"Hell has a bad reputation, even among Christians. It is often thought of as a necessary evil, an affront to the goodness and love of God. Some think that God was somehow forced by his nature or circumstance to tolerate the existence of Hell. Even some of the most devout Christians see Hell as an embarrassment.



But I tell you that Hell is a holy place. The creation and perpetuation of Hell is good, righteous and loving. And if you believe the Bible is God's word and the historical doctrines of Hell are correct, then you ought to agree with me.



1. According to the Bible, God is perfect, good, holy, righteous, and loving. God's every action and act of creation share these qualities.



2. Although everything that God creates is good, some things such as Angels, humankind, and the Earth have fallen and are a no longer good. However Hell has never fallen from the goodness of God's creation.



3. The purpose of Hell is for the torment of God's fallen enemies. This suffering is punitive, not restorative. In hell there is no way to be restored to fellowship with God. If Hell's purpose is not good then God is not good.



4. God is not “forced” to torment his enemies, nor is this something “unavoidable” as if God was double-minded. God sovereignly chose to create Hell and shows no regret about it. Note that God has had regrets, but Hell is not one of them.



5. Any human attempts to explain or justify God's creation of Hell will fall short of the truth because we cannot fully understand Him. Nevertheless, Hell does not lose its goodness when we fail to understand/appreciate it.



6. Since only God is good, only God can be the standard of goodness. Thus, God's Hell must be good and God's torment of his enemies must be good. You can only disagree by rejecting the Biblical revelation of God and Hell.



7. If you cannot fully love Hell, then you cannot fully embrace its Creator. A better understanding of the holy goodness of Hell will help you become more mature in Christ. It is worth your study and meditation."

Who wrote that? Augustine?

 

[o_mlly]

H: Some created persons will be consigned to hell forever

Two points to consider.
1) The use of the passive voice leaves one to wonder as to who does this consigning to hell.
2) The use of the preposition "to" suggests that hell is a place.

As to #1, I think the correct expression of premise H is: Some created persons self-assign themselves to hell forever.

As to #2, in the spiritual realm, a physical location, ie., place, has no meaning. Therefore, hell must be a disposition of mind that one wills for themselves at the moment of their death for eternity. As long as we exist in time, we can alter our disposition as our senses provide more information for consideration. At death, the senses no longer inform, our attitude is fixed, and our relation to God is fixed.

Pray for the grace of final penitence.

 

[Peter J Barban]

No human despot in history has devised such a cruel punishment as what you define as hell. Humans have laws about such things. Cruel and unusual punishment is not allowed.

In fact, I take it as slander against God to make such claims about him. Infernalists have turned our loving heavenly Father into a gangster godfather. Making us an offer we can't refuse. Spiritual extortion.

Like it or not, it's in the Bible and the historical doctrine of the church.

 

[Peter J Barban]

Jesus commanded us to love our enemies and to love our neighbor as ourselves. That said, how would you feel about being tormented for eternity?

I'm a Bible teacher in the Reformed tradition, all I can do is proclaim the truth as revealed in the Bible. I have no other message.

 

[Saint Steven]

Like it or not, it's in the Bible and the historical doctrine of the church.

You are building on several assumptions which the data does not support.
Is it really in the Bible?
I agree that it is in "the historical doctrine of the church." But how did it get there? And what should be done about it? Here's some historical data you may not be familiar with.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff writes :

"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

 

[Saint Steven]

As to #2, in the spiritual realm, a physical location, ie., place, has no meaning.

A Bible search in the NIV translation on the term "realm of the dead' provides 29 references.

 

[Saint Steven]

I'm a Bible teacher in the Reformed tradition, all I can do is proclaim the truth as revealed in the Bible. I have no other message.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Like it or not, it's in the Bible and the historical doctrine of the church.

I have three Bible versions without "hell." There are dozens of others, so "it's in the Bible" is a bit misleading, but I'm sure you're unaware of the facts.

 

[ozso]

I'm a Bible teacher in the Reformed tradition, all I can do is proclaim the truth as revealed in the Bible. I have no other message.

That's sounds like a pretty convenient way to avoid answering questions. Personally I never cared for the constraints involved in marrying myself to a particular tradition. But I'm glad you've made it clear that what you're posting is according to tradition. It seems to me some folks equate tradition to God ie going against said tradition is the same as going against God. Of course a problem with that is, I'm sure there's traditions you don't agree with, that make the same claim.

 

[Saint Steven]

I'm a Bible teacher in the Reformed tradition, all I can do is proclaim the truth as revealed in the Bible. I have no other message.

That's a dangerous combination. Everyone who isn't "Reformed" goes to hell.

 

[ozso]

I have three Bible versions without "hell." There are dozens of others, so "it's in the Bible" is a bit misleading, but I'm sure you're unaware of the facts.

Unicorns are in the Bible. But of course they're not in the actual Greek manuscripts.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Unicorns are in the Bible. But of course they're not in the actual Greek manuscripts.

Again - which version? "In the Bible" is always misleading. My Ferrar Fenton version posits that the big fish of Jonah was a submarine, but as one who is fascinated with ancient technology, who really knows for sure? I do note that submarines do not have bellies...

 

[Saint Steven]

Unicorns are in the Bible. But of course they're not in the actual Greek manuscripts.

Did you mean Hebrew?

 

[ozso]

I have three Bible versions without "hell." There are dozens of others, so "it's in the Bible" is a bit misleading, but I'm sure you're unaware of the facts.

Now what about the times the word actually is "Hell"? Such as:

"In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side." Luke 16:23

What do you do with that one?

 

[ozso]

Did you mean Hebrew?

Er uh well I was probably thinking of the Septuagint when I wrote that But yes. Then again come to think of it, was the KJV OT taken from the Hebrew or the Septuagint?

 

[Lazarus Short]

Now what about the times the word actually is "Hell"? Such as:

"In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side." Luke 16:23

What do you do with that one?

I see the parable as having to do with the coming fate of Jerusalem and Judah in 70 AD. There are details that transcend the simplistic interpretation of "See? Hell is real!" One of them is the rich man having five brothers, just as the man Judah had five brothers. Jesus was using common religious motifs to weave a story, but it was far more profound than the "hell" message that most take away.

 

[ozso]

Again - which version? "In the Bible" is always misleading. My Ferrar Fenton version posits that the big fish of Jonah was a submarine, but as one who is fascinated with ancient technology, who really knows for sure? I do note that submarines do not have bellies...

THE version - the KJV. And lol.

 

[Lazarus Short]

THE version - the KJV. And lol.

Tell me why I should have any special regard for a 400 year old Anglican Bible version. I am reading a recent version out of South Africa titled simply "The Scriptures." It's as if a layer of scrim has been removed from between me and the text. Be aware that I was once a KJV proponent and I understand that it is one of pillars of English literature. However, on careful study, it came up short.

 

[ozso]

I see the parable as having to do with the coming fate of Jerusalem and Judah in 70 AD. There are details that transcend the simplistic interpretation of "See? Hell is real!" One of them is the rich man having five brothers, just as the man Judah had five brothers. Jesus was using common religious motifs to weave a story, but it was far more profound than the "hell" message that most take away.

I view it the same way. However at the same time, Jesus did basically say the man was being tormented in hell, in flames no less. Of course I've heard various interpretations of what that torment was. I remember Arnold Murray saying it was shame. He (the Pharisee) was burning with shame.

 

[Lazarus Short]

BTW, about the submarine comment, I didn't intend to come off sounding like "Ancient Aliens"...