marian apparitions

[amariselle]

As this is a thread on Marian apparitions, I don't intend to derail it. As Catholics we'll be the first to admit that many things we do and believe do not come from Scripture. Our claim is that Catholic belief and practices are consistent with Scripture, and that Scripture alone is itself unbiblical.

But I will point out, however, that private apparitions (Marian or otherwise) are not a source of doctrine, binding on the faithful. But Marian apparitions often display a relatively developed Mariology. Marian doctrines are based on Scripture and/or Tradition, and have often developed over the centuries, and apparitions might confirm certain Marian doctrines for that particular individual seeing it. But again - not binding on the faithful, not a source of doctrine.

I think the issue is that this apparition confirmed many Catholic doctrines which are not found in Scripture, and actually go against Scripture (such as salvation being found in Christ alone). That is one of my concerns in any case.

This may have initially been a “private apparition”, but it has long been confirmed legitimate by the Vatican and the recognition of “Our Lady of Fatima” has become a very public thing. Many make pilgrimages to Fatima in honour of “Mary”. Pope Francis himself “entrusted” all of humanity’s temporal and eternal destinies to her.

As I am part of humanity and was therefore included in this act, I think I have a right to speak up. This hasn’t been a private matter or even just a Catholic one for a long time.

My temporal and eternal destiny belongs only to God, not Mary.

 

[GodsGrace101]

--which I believe is the position of the Catholic Church, yet look at all the people who insist that they are real and even that some miracle occurred there beyond just the apparition itself.

I know many who have been there. They go on bus trips to both Lourdes (to which I've been) and also to Medjugorie (never been).

I've been told that they see the sun "turn". Or they see it change color. It could be mass hynosis too. I don't understand it.

I think @amariselle has some good points, but I still don't understand how bringing one to faith, even if by Mary, is going against God. She was His mother.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I think the issue is that this apparition confirmed many Catholic doctrines which are not found in Scripture, and actually go against Scripture (such as salvation being found in Christ alone). That is one of my concerns in any case.

This may have initially been a “private apparition”, but it has long been confirmed legitimate by the Vatican and the recognition of “Our Lady of Fatima” has become a very public thing. Many make pilgrimages to Fatima in honour of “Mary”. Pope Francis himself “entrusted” all of humanity’s temporal and eternal destinies to her.

As I am part of humanity and was therefore included in this act, I think I have a right to speak up. This hasn’t been a private matter or even just a Catholic one for a long time.

My temporal and eternal destiny belongs only to God, not Mary.

I agree with much of what you say and you've posted some very good statements.

I don't have a set belief on this so I won't argue it..I mean debate it. Some seem to need a female figure. If that can bring one to the Christian faith I don't particularly see anything wrong with it.

Catholics are not supposed to worship Mary, worship belongs only to God. Mary is seen as the mother of the church.

I do think that we Protestants do not give her enough respect and honor --

 

[amariselle]

I know many who have been there. They go on bus trips to both Lourdes (to which I've been) and also to Medjugorie (never been).

I've been told that they see the sun "turn". Or they see it change color. It could be mass hynosis too. I don't understand it.

I think @amariselle has some good points, but I still don't understand how bringing one to faith, even if by Mary, is going against God. She was His mother.

She was, yes. My concern is with her promise of salvation to all devoted to her. That is most definitely “another Gospel.”

How are people truly taught that salvation is in Christ alone if they believe they must come to Mary? Scripture says we have one Mediator, Jesus Christ.

Whoever or whatever this apparition was, it called people to trust in it, rather than in Christ for salvation.

Obviously that’s a huge problem according to the word of God. (Not my opinion).

This is why I am so concerned. And from a personal stand point, that my grandparents may very well have believed “Our Lady of Fatima” and sought salvation through devotion to her.

 

[amariselle]

I agree with much of what you say and you've posted some very good statements.

I don't have a set belief on this so I won't argue it..I mean debate it. Some seem to need a female figure. If that can bring one to the Christian faith I don't particularly see anything wrong with it.

Catholics are not supposed to worship Mary, worship belongs only to God. Mary is seen as the mother of the church.

Many will say that, but then they give her unBiblical titles and honour, such as “co-redeemer”, “Queen of Heaven” and “Mediatrix of all graces”. Many believe that the grace of God for salvation comes from Christ through her. Many do in fact worship Mary.

I do think that we Protestants do not give her enough respect and honor --

Many Protestants, myself included, are very willing to give her every honour and distinction Scripture gives her, but not a bit more.

I do not think that is disrespectful.

27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.

28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. - Luke 11:27-28

 

[GodsGrace101]

She was, yes. My concern is with her promise of salvation to all devoted to her. That is most definitely “another Gospel.”

How are people truly taught that salvation is in Christ alone if they believe they must come to Mary? Scripture says we have one Mediator, Jesus Christ.

Whoever or whatever this apparition was, it called people to trust in it, rather than in Christ for salvation.

Obviously that’s a huge problem according to the word of God. (Not my opinion).

This is why I am so concerned. And from a personal stand point, that my grandparents may very well have believed “Our Lady of Fatima” and sought salvation through devotion to her.

You won't get an argument from me.
I do know Catholic doctrine and it's coming to a point where Mary is ALMOST called a co-redemptrix. There has been much talk about this in the past few years.

I must say that at bible studies and at Mass, which I do attend at times (living here), I do not hear talk about Mary. It seems almost as though the catholics want her and the church is willing to please.

The CC knows very well that salvation comes through Jesus. They agree with Ephesians 2:8 just like we do.

As for the apparitions, how could some children that claim they saw her, keep a secret for so many years without breaking down?? Bernadette of Lourdes ended up being a nun.

 

[Albion]

The devotion to the Immaculate Heart focuses on the pure love Mary had (and still has) for God. The devotion honours this love, and the inner life of Mary in general, including her virtues, joys and sorrows. And the devotee seeks to love God just as intensely as Mary did. Devotional practices include the Rosary, the First Saturdays Devotion (going to Mass in honour the Immaculate Heart), meditating on the seven sorrows of Mary (the sorrows being the "sword" that pierced her heart). In a sense Mary is the Immaculate Heart. The Immaculate Heart of Mary is, if you like, a Catholic "code word" for Mary's love and interior life.

What you are saying is that some Christians developed a certain devotion to Mary over the centuries and that they created terminology to reflect their feelings about her. But you claimed in your earlier post that all of this was a belief held in the church from the time of the Apostles forward. Nothing in your reply addresses that claim, and of course there was no such system of devotions in the Apostolic church.

 

[GodsGrace101]

What you are saying is that some Christians developed a certain devotion to Mary over the centuries and that they created terminology to reflect their feelings about her. But you claimed in your earlier post that all of this was a belief held in the church from the time of the Apostles forward. Nothing in your reply addresses that claim, and of course there was no such system of devotions in the Apostolic church.

The Didache does not mention Mary.
There would be too many ECF's to read, but of the little I've read, I can't remember Mary being mentioned....this does not mean she wasn't.

 

[amariselle]

You won't get an argument from me.
I do know Catholic doctrine and it's coming to a point where Mary is ALMOST called a co-redemptrix. There has been much talk about this in the past few years.

I must say that at bible studies and at Mass, which I do attend at times (living here), I do not hear talk about Mary. It seems almost as though the catholics want her and the church is willing to please.

Well, Mary is prayed to during Mass. But yes, the "co-redemptrix" position is not yet official doctrine, I know. Many other unBiblical doctrines are official, in regards to Mary, however, and they have been progressively added throughout the centuries.

The CC knows very well that salvation comes through Jesus.

The Catholic church's concept of salvation, namely how it is obtained, is a subject for another thread, of course. Suffice it to say that salvation in the Catholic church (according to the official doctrines and traditions) comes in "installments" or is "infused" by taking part in the various ordinances and practices of the church. (Sacraments, confession, penance, indulgences, purgatory etc.)

They agree with Ephesians 2:8 just like we do.

I won't go too far that here, as it is off topic, but as I wrote above, there are certain practices required according to official Catholic teaching, and the faithful Catholic must see to it that they regularly participate in what is required, in the hope that they will be found in a "state of grace" and be saved when all is said and done. (After an unknown amount of time in the "place" or "state" of purgatory, that is). How one can say that agrees with Ephesians 2:8 is beyond me, though I know they try to say it does.

At the end of my Catholic grandmother's life, as she lay in the hospital dying, she apparently told her younger sister that she wasn't afraid of dying, she was afraid of "getting there". (to Heaven). Now, it breaks my heart that she would have said such a thing. She had been a faithful Catholic all her life. The answer to her uncertainty is Jesus. He alone is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Eternal life is not found in our works, in our obedience to church ordinances, it is in Christ alone. And so, you can see the confusion these "apparitions" can bring as well. Did my grandmother believe she was going to purgatory to suffer? Did she fear over that wondering when and how she'd get out? Did she believe that Mary could save her? Or did she trust in Christ alone? I'll never know in this life, and all I can do is hope that she understood and believed the Gospel.

As for the apparitions, how could some children that claim they saw her, keep a secret for so many years without breaking down?? Bernadette of Lourdes ended up being a nun.

Perhaps they did see something powerful and supernatural. That doesn't mean it was from God. God would not send anyone to preach "another Gospel." This is why the Bible warns us repeatedly about lying signs and wonders and deception.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Well, Mary is prayed to during Mass. But yes, the "co-redemptrix" position is not yet official doctrine, I know. Many other unBiblical doctrines are official, in regards to Mary, however, and they have been progressively added throughout the centuries.

The Catholic church's concept of salvation, namely how it is obtained, is a subject for another thread, of course. Suffice it to say that salvation in the Catholic church (according to the official doctrines and traditions) comes in "installments" or is "infused" by taking part in the various ordinances and practices of the church. (Sacraments, confession, penance, indulgences, purgatory etc.)

I won't go too far that here, as it is off topic, but as I wrote above, there are certain practices required according to official Catholic teaching, and the faithful Catholic must see to it that they regularly participate in what is required, in the hope that they will be found in a "state of grace" and be saved when all is said and done. (After an unknown amount of time in the "place" or "state" of purgatory, that is). How one can say that agrees with Ephesians 2:8 is beyond me, though I know they try to say it does.

At the end of my Catholic grandmother's life, as she lay in the hospital dying, she apparently told her younger sister that she wasn't afraid of dying, she was afraid of "getting there". (to Heaven). Now, it breaks my heart that she would have said such a thing. She had been a faithful Catholic all her life. The answer to her uncertainty is Jesus. He alone is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Eternal life is not found in our works, in our obedience to church ordinances, it is in Christ alone. And so, you can see the confusion these "apparitions" can bring as well. Did my grandmother believe she was going to purgatory to suffer? Did she fear over that wondering when and how she'd get out? Did she believe that Mary could save her? Or did she trust in Christ alone? I'll never know in this life, and all I can do is hope that she understood and believed the Gospel.

Perhaps they did see something powerful and supernatural. That doesn't mean it was from God. God would not send anyone to preach "another Gospel." This is why the Bible warns us repeatedly about lying signs and wonders and deception.

The church believes salvation comes by the sacrifice of Jesus.
Grace is received through Mary and through the sacraments.
Purgatory is taught differently by each individual priest. Some believe it is only separation from God and lasts a few moments. Although the CCC has specific teachings on it (official teachings), I don't know any priest that that agrees with how they used to teach it when I was little and going to Catholic religious instruction. Kids were afraid of it, as they are today.

The older catholics still believe in being saved by works. The younger catholics have understood the difference between trying to be saved by works, and working for God after salvation. I find this to be true in protestantism too or there would not be such debate over this.

What I don't agree with is this....you say Mary is a different gospel. OK. But if it brings people INTO the church, and some are really saved and become part of the Body, then how is it demonic? Wouldn't that work to separate people from God?

I think I said a house divided cannot stand...

Basically I agree with what you've said, and I believe your grandmother is happy in heaven. Of course.

 

[Albion]

The older catholics still believe in being saved by works. The younger catholics have understood the difference between trying to be saved by works, and working for God after salvation. I find this to be true in protestantism too or there would not be such debate over this.

The debates over this issue or others occur because the church that those people belong to has not changed its doctrines to agree with what you say younger Catholics believe.

 

[amariselle]

The church believes salvation comes by the sacrifice of Jesus.
Grace is received through Mary and through the sacraments.

Not according to the Bible.

Purgatory is taught differently by each individual priest. Some believe it is only separation from God and lasts a few moments. Although the CCC has specific teachings on it (official teachings), I don't know any priest that that agrees with how they used to teach it when I was little and going to Catholic religious instruction. Kids were afraid of it, as they are today.

The Catholic church has indeed become more and more vague on Purgatory, but it is still an essential doctrine and it does call into question the efficacy of Christ's death on the cross to purge sins, once for all. (As do the other Sacraments) Also, Purgatory is not found in Scripture.

The older catholics still believe in being saved by works. The younger catholics have understood the difference between trying to be saved by works, and working for God after salvation. I find this to be true in protestantism too or there would not be such debate over this.

Vatican II and the "Ecumenical Movement" may be doing much to promote this idea and unity between the Catholic and Protestant churches. The truth is, however, that the Catholic church has changed none of its core doctrines or traditions.

What I don't agree with is this....you say Mary is a different gospel. OK. But if it brings people INTO the church, and some are really saved and become part of the Body, then how is it demonic? Wouldn't that work to separate people from God?

Into what church? And in who would these people be hoping in? "Mary" at Fatima promised salvation to all devoted to her. That is "another Gospel", plain and simple. Mary doesn't have the power to save, and no one should be devoting themselves to anyone but God.

I think I said a house divided cannot stand...

This is true.

Basically I agree with what you've said, and I believe your grandmother is happy in heaven. Of course.

She is if she trusted only in Christ for salvation. It is not for me to know that or to judge her or anyone else in their ultimate destination. I do "test" doctrines, however.

I have shed many, many tears wishing I could go back and have a good conversation with my grandparents.

 

[GodsGrace101]

The debates over this issue or others occur because the church that those people belong to has not changed its doctrines to agree with what you say younger Catholics believe.

They won't change the doctrine of believing that grace comes through Mary and through the sacraments.

They COULD explain things better, but when?
At the Mass? I'm told it's not a classroom...I've spoken to some priests about this. At least 3 that I'm friendly with.

They're trying bible study, but people don't understand why they need to know the bible...

I'm speaking about Italy...I don't really know what's going on in the states anymore.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Not according to the Bible.

The Catholic church has indeed become more and more vague on Purgatory, but it is still an essential doctrine and it does call into question the efficacy of Christ's death on the cross to purge sins, once for all. (As do the other Sacraments) Also, Purgatory is not found in Scripture.

Vatican II and the "Ecumenical Movement" may be doing much to promote this idea and unity between the Catholic and Protestant churches. The truth is, however, that the Catholic church has changed none of its core doctrines or traditions.

Into what church? And in who would these people be hoping in? "Mary" at Fatima promised salvation to all devoted to her. That is "another Gospel", plain and simple. Mary doesn't have the power to save, and no one should be devoting themselves to anyone but God.

This is true.

She is if she trusted only in Christ for salvation. It is not for me to know that or to judge her or anyone else in their ultimate destination. I do "test" doctrines, however.

I have shed many, many tears wishing I could go back and have a good conversation with my grandparents.

I agree - I don't see purgatory in the bible. But tell them that!
1 Corinthians 3:15
Luke 12:59

The CC says that Mary will bring people to Christ.
The catholics I know that are saved are trusting in Jesus although they pray the rosary and speak of Mary too.

I do believe that God is a loving and merciful God and He will allow for those who were taught incorrectly but still believed in Him.

 

[amariselle]

I agree - I don't see purgatory in the bible. But tell them that!
1 Corinthians 3:15
Luke 12:59

The CC says that Mary will bring people to Christ.
The catholics I know that are saved are trusting in Jesus although they pray the rosary and speak of Mary too.

I do believe that God is a loving and merciful God and He will allow for those who were taught incorrectly but still believed in Him.

I'm just wondering what you think about Scripture's many warnings about deception? Clearly God counts it very important that people know the truth.

Jesus warns of such deception in Matthew 7 and Matthew 24. Below are some other warnings. It's a very serious topic in Scripture.

25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. - Acts 20:25-31

1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead
2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. - Galatians 1:1-9

1 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.
2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. - 2 Corinthians 11:1-4

13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. -2 Corinthians 11:13-15

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. - 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12

 

[GodsGrace101]

I'm just wondering what you think about Scripture's many warnings about deception? Clearly God counts it very important that people know the truth.

Jesus warns of such deception in Matthew 7 and Matthew 24. Below are some other warnings. It's a very serious topic in Scripture.

25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. - Acts 20:25-31

1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead
2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. - Galatians 1:1-9

1 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.
2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. - 2 Corinthians 11:1-4

13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. -2 Corinthians 11:13-15

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. - 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12

I know the above.
To me another gospel means a heresy -- something that takes us away from God, NOT draws us to Him. Something that puts us in danger of being lost.

I might be prejudiced because I was raised Catholic and I loved Mary as a little girl, but I always loved Jesus too. I'm not sure that loving Mary would put us in danger...she's the mother of Jesus.

I'd have to give this a lot of thought and I don't think it's worth it. Why? Because I don't believe doctrine saves us, I believe Jesus saves us even when our doctrine is wrong, if it's what we truly believe in our heart.

I know that some persons worship Mary, the CC does NOT teach this, but it's not very clear on this either. I'd pull out my CCC but it's really later here. Maybe tomorrow...

 

[amariselle]

I know the above.
To me another gospel means a heresy -- something that takes us away from God, NOT draws us to Him. Something that puts us in danger of being lost.

I might be prejudiced because I was raised Catholic and I loved Mary as a little girl, but I always loved Jesus too. I'm not sure that loving Mary would put us in danger...she's the mother of Jesus.

I'd have to give this a lot of thought and I don't think it's worth it. Why? Because I don't believe doctrine saves us, I believe Jesus saves us even when our doctrine is wrong, if it's what we truly believe in our heart.

I know that some persons worship Mary, the CC does NOT teach this, but it's not very clear on this either. I'd pull out my CCC but it's really later here. Maybe tomorrow...

I’ve read a lot of the Catholic Catechism myself. Official Catholic teaching on Mary does in fact foster the worship of her that many Catholics choose to engage in. After all, when the Pope “entrusts” all of humanity’s temporal and eternal destinies to her, that has a lot of influence.

As far as doctrine goes, I have to disagree with you there. Doctrine (the word of God, rightly divided), is absolutely necessary. Without it we have nothing but confusion, vague notions and dependence on human “wisdom” and emotion with no real or concrete knowledge of God and the Gospel.

This is why Paul, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, wrote this to Timothy:

13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. - 1 Timothy 4:16

 

[Mark_Sam]

What you are saying is that some Christians developed a certain devotion to Mary over the centuries and that they created terminology to reflect their feelings about her. But you claimed in your earlier post that all of this was a belief held in the church from the time of the Apostles forward. Nothing in your reply addresses that claim, and of course there was no such system of devotions in the Apostolic church.

Mary has since the very beginning been called "the mother of the Lord" (Luke 1:43) and "the favored one"/"endued with grace" (Luke 1:28), and the early Church understood that she had a special role in the history of salvation, being called "the God-bearer" (Theotokos), "the mother of God" and "the all-holy" (Panagia). Throughout the ages, the Church more and more understood who she was, in many ways it reached its height in the 1850's when the centuries-old belief of the Immaculate Conception was made dogma.

The standard Catholic apologetic answer is to compare the development of doctrine to a seed. The seed grows into a tree, which looks different, but it's still the same object, just in a more another form. The Apostles believed in the Incarnation and the Trinity. But the Church would still need several Ecumenical Councils over the span of centuries to fully explain these doctrines. The Church has always believed that Mary was a special person with a special mission, that she was the mother of God, she was holy, she was the Kecharitōménē ("the favored one").

Irenaeus, the "spiritual grandson" of St. John the Evangelist (he was a disciple of Polycarp, who in turn was a disciple of St. John), set up Eve and Mary as type and antitype, laying the foundation for calling Mary "the new Eve". The oldest prayer to Mary that we have today, the "Sub tuum praesidium", might predate the Council of Nicea. Those are some early examples.

So the particular Marian doctrines and devotions developed over time, and in stages. But they did not appear out of thin air, and neither was their development seen as unnatural or contrary to devotion to Christ our God. The "Marian seed", so to speak, was always there.

 

[Albion]

Mary has since the very beginning been called "the mother of the Lord" (Luke 1:43) and "the favored one"/"endued with grace" (Luke 1:28), and the early Church understood that she had a special role in the history of salvation, being called "the God-bearer" (Theotokos), "the mother of God" and "the all-holy" (Panagia).

Theotokos came later, but what you are talking about here doesn't deal with what we were discussing--the Immaculate Heart of Mary honor and what it might mean.

Throughout the ages, the Church more and more understood who she was, in many ways it reached its height in the 1850's when the centuries-old belief of the Immaculate Conception was made dogma.

Then its agreed that this particular honorarium was NOT of Apostolic origin.

 

[Mark_Sam]

"Mary" at Fatima promised salvation to all devoted to her. That is "another Gospel", plain and simple. Mary doesn't have the power to save, and no one should be devoting themselves to anyone but God.

In very much the same way as Protestants ask Catholics "why are you so devoted to Mary? Mary was simply a woman, she can't save you", a Catholic could in turn ask the Protestants "why are you so devoted to the Bible? Why do you spend so much time reading and studying it? It's simply a book, it can't save you. Why not trust in God instead?".

That last question might seem nonsensical, because it is: spending time reading the Bible and meditation on the Bible are not opposed to trusting in God alone. In the same way, under the Catholic system, that "spending time with Mary" is not opposed to trusting in God alone. You don't have to choose between God and the Bible, and in the same you don't have to choose between God and Mary. One is the goal (God), the other the means (Bible, Mary).

In the Catholic train of thought, it is impossible to be truly devoted to Mary and at the same time not be truly devoted to Christ. The basic idea is that just as Christ entered this world through a woman, the world can enter into Christ through the same woman. Devotion to Mary is not seen as contrary to devotion to Christ - devotion to Mary is a means of becoming more devoted to Christ.

Of course, you are free to disagree with this. And you might say that these devotions leads to Mariolatry - and there are plenty of unhealthy Mary worship going on in the world. But you have to at least acknowledge that the Catholic Church officially do not sanction Mary worship, and that it teaches that Christ is the one and only Savior of mankind.