marian apparitions

anna ~ grace

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Salvation is possible only if Mary signs off on it first?
No, simply that the saving graces of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit choose to work and save through the prayers, intercession, and care of Mary.

Mary is the first Christian. She wants us to go to Heaven, and through her prayers, (as in when God saves through the prayers of a loving, righteous, concerned Christian friend of someone in need), God works. Not that God needs the Blessed Virgin, only that He has chosen to work through her. Not only once in history at the Annunciation but continually.
 
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amariselle

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"Mary" of Fatima: "He (Jesus) wants to establish in the world devotion to My Immaculate Heart. To whoever embraces this devotion I promise salvation..."

Jesus: Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. - John 14:1-7

So, who was right? Because they can't both be.
 
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amariselle

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No, simply that the saving graces of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit choose to work and save through the prayers, intercession, and care of Mary.

Where is it written?

Mary is the first Christian. She wants us to go to Heaven, and through her prayers, (as in when God saves through the prayers of a loving, righteous, concerned Christian friend of someone in need), God works. Not that God needs the Blessed Virgin, only that He has chosen to work through her. Not only once in history at the Annunciation but continually.

Again, where is it written?
 
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anna ~ grace

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That sounds more like an explanation of the place of Mary in Catholic theology than an answer to the question about the meaning of the expression Immaculate Heart of Mary. It is a peculiar and vague description, you have to admit.

Ah, so, Immaculate simply means without stain or imperfection. Mary loved and was united to God immaculately through her Immaculate Conception and freedom from original sin. Thus when we honor her Immaculate Heart, we praise and draw near to the mystery of her deep, often silent, intrinsic spiritual union with God and desire that souls should be saved no matter what the cost was. And the cost was her Son. That is a profound love.
 
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amariselle

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Ah, so, Immaculate simply means without stain or imperfection. Mary loved and was united to God immaculately through her Immaculate Conception and freedom from original sin. Thus when we honor her Immaculate Heart, we praise and draw near to the mystery of her deep, often silent, intrinsic spiritual union with God and desire that souls should be saved no matter what the cost was. And the cost was her Son. That is a profound love.

I do understand that the above is Catholic doctrine and tradition, but where is it written in Scripture?
 
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Albion

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No, simply that the saving graces of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit choose to work and save through the prayers, intercession, and care of Mary.
Why would anyone think that? Everything in Scripture is about salvation being through Jesus with no mention of any intermediaries.
 
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anna ~ grace

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Where is it written?



Again, where is it written?

Not explicitly in the Scriptures, but then, Catholicism is not limited to the contents of Scripture, or Acts. The Word is Jesus, and He continues to love us and helps us to understand the love He has for us through the Church.
 
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amariselle

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1 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.

2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. - 2 Corinthians 11:1-4
 
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anna ~ grace

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I do understand that the above is Catholic doctrine and tradition, but where is it written in Scripture?
The same place where Scripture explicitly and precisely defines, verbatim and leaving no room for debate, that "God exists eternally in Three co-equal Persons as God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, One God, and is thus Triune in nature and specifically a Trinity".
 
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amariselle

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Not explicitly in the Scriptures, but then, Catholicism is not limited to the contents of Scripture, or Acts. The Word is Jesus, and He continues to love us and helps us to understand the love He has for us through the Church.

It's not only a matter of Scripture not stating what the Catholic church teaches regarding Mary, it's about Scripture clearly teaching the exact opposite.
 
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Albion

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Ah, so, Immaculate simply means without stain or imperfection. Mary loved and was united to God immaculately through her Immaculate Conception and freedom from original sin. Thus when we honor her Immaculate Heart, we praise and draw near to the mystery of her deep, often silent, intrinsic spiritual union with God and desire that souls should be saved no matter what the cost was. And the cost was her Son. That is a profound love.
I think we all know that the organ that pumps blood has nothing to do with being conceived without sin even if that were true in the case of Mary. Anyway, I have no desire to badger you about this; it appears to be nothing more than a fanciful, romantic, poetic way of saying we need to worship Mary--if indeed we do. ;)
 
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amariselle

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The same place where Scripture explicitly and precisely defines, verbatim and leaving no room for debate, that "God exists eternally in Three co-equal Persons as God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, One God, and is thus Triune in nature and specifically a Trinity".

And what does that have to do with Mary? Yes, the Bible does teach the "concept" of the "Trinity". It does not, however, teach anything like the official Catholic doctrines on Mary and specifically salvation through devotion to her "Immaculate Heart."

Quite the opposite. Salvation is by faith in Christ alone.
 
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Albion

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Not explicitly in the Scriptures, but then, Catholicism is not limited to the contents of Scripture, or Acts. The Word is Jesus, and He continues to love us and helps us to understand the love He has for us through the Church.
anything we choose to attribute to Jesus can be considered dogma IOW.
 
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Albion

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Not so. What has the Church taught through her Saints, Liturgies, and prayers from the Apostles onward? That is a central question.
None of these attributes, powers, or special assignments were taught from the Apostles onward. That much we know for certain.
 
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Mark_Sam

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* There is no one who needs to or even can "sacrifice themselves for sinners"
* There is no need to "make reparation for sins committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary". We are guilty before God, and He alone is our judge in that. (And He has chosen to give mercy and grace through Jesus Christ our Saviour).
*Mary does not possess "all the graces necessary for salvation", and so she cannot offer them in return for devotion to her "Immaculate Heart." Only God saves, specifically through the Sacrifice on the cross of His Son, Jesus Christ. That is the only Grace necessary for salvation.
*Jesus would not say there is no one to make "reparation" for sin. He alone has purged sin, once and for all.

This is why I cannot accept "Our Lady of Fatima" as being a true revelation from God.
The Catholic concept of reparation is difficult to understand. "Making reparation" is not about atoning for sin, but it is about un-doing blasphemy. So making reparation to the Immaculate Heart would mean to say some prayers praising Mary, to un-do all the blasphemy done against her. We can also make reparation to Jesus Christ, under the titles of the Sacred Heart or the Holy Face, or to the blessed Trinity. When someone you love is being ridiculed or mocked, it is only a natural instinct to want to make it good, even if it is not necessary.

Mary is "the mother of grace", since she is the mother of him from whom all graces flow, that is Christ. But what role Mary has in the distribution of graces now is still a ongoing theological debate in the Catholic Church. Some take the maximalist position (all graces from Christ flows through the hands of Mary), some take the minimalist position (Mary's main task is to pray, so she is only involved in the distribution of graces by way of suffrage), and there is every position in-between also.

You disagree with the Fatima apparition. But there is no arguing that the theology from the Fatima apparitions is at least consistent with Catholic theology.

...and what does devotion to (or sins against) Mary's Immaculate Heart even mean? Seriously.
The devotion to the Immaculate Heart focuses on the pure love Mary had (and still has) for God. The devotion honours this love, and the inner life of Mary in general, including her virtues, joys and sorrows. And the devotee seeks to love God just as intensely as Mary did. Devotional practices include the Rosary, the First Saturdays Devotion (going to Mass in honour the Immaculate Heart), meditating on the seven sorrows of Mary (the sorrows being the "sword" that pierced her heart). In a sense Mary is the Immaculate Heart. The Immaculate Heart of Mary is, if you like, a Catholic "code word" for Mary's love and interior life. And quite frankly, most of the times when you read "the Immaculate Heart [of Mary]", you could simply replace it with "Mary" and the meaning would be more or less the same. Again, the title is more devotional than theological, borne out of popular piety rather than theological debate.

There are generally five different offenses committed against the Immaculate Heart: (1) offenses against the Immaculate Conception, (2) against her virginity, (3) against her being the Mother of God, (4) to foster indifference or hate toward Mary and (5) to desecrate images or icons of Mary. This is the list you'll find online. So to sin against the Immaculate Heart would be to commit these particular offenses.

There also exist the parallel devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, focusing on the Divine Love he has for humanity. The devotion to the Sacred Heart is more popular, I believe, even though the devotion to the Immaculate Heart pre-dates it. Then there is the joint devotion to the Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary, focusing on both Hearts. Sort of like a "two for one" deal.
 
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amariselle

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The Catholic concept of reparation is difficult to understand. "Making reparation" is not about atoning for sin, but it is about un-doing blasphemy. So making reparation to the Immaculate Heart would mean to say some prayers praising Mary, to un-do all the blasphemy done against her.

How does one “blaspheme” a fellow, mortal human being?

Blaspheme: (verb)

* speak irreverently about God or sacred things.

* the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God

* irreverence toward something considered sacred or inviolable

And what exactly would be an example of a “blasphemy” spoken against Mary?

We can also make reparation to Jesus Christ, under the titles of the Sacred Heart or the Holy Face, or to the blessed Trinity. When someone you love is being ridiculed or mocked, it is only a natural instinct to want to make it good, even if it is not necessary.

Except, unlike Mary, Jesus Christ is sacred and divine, so He can be “blasphemed.” Also, I don’t recall anything in Scripture regarding making “reparation” to Christ for the mocking things people will say of Him. He did tell us to expect as much.

Mary is "the mother of grace", since she is the mother of him from whom all graces flow, that is Christ.

Scripture never once gives her that title. Catholic teaching and tradition does. (Along with many other titles).

But what role Mary has in the distribution of graces now is still a ongoing theological debate in the Catholic Church.

I am aware of that, although there are official doctrines as well.

Some take the maximalist position (all graces from Christ flows through the hands of Mary), some take the minimalist position (Mary's main task is to pray, so she is only involved in the distribution of graces by way of suffrage), and there is every position in-between also.

So, how about the Biblical postition, which is that grace comes to us directly from Christ when we believe?

You disagree with the Fatima apparition. But there is no arguing that the theology from the Fatima apparitions is at least consistent with Catholic theology.

On that we agree.

The devotion to the Immaculate Heart focuses on the pure love Mary had (and still has) for God.

I don’t deny Mary loves/loved God.

The devotion honours this love, and the inner life of Mary in general, including her virtues, joys and sorrows.

Honestly, I think it’s disrespectful to believe we can truely know or understand what Mary’s “inner life”, “joys”, and “sorrows” would have been. We don’t even know such things about our family and closest friends often enough. And no one has ever talked with Mary and learned what her life was really like and what she really went through. We have no personal relationship with her, nor can we contact her. She has left this earthly life.

And the devotee seeks to love God just as intensely as Mary did.

We love because He first loved us. We love God when we believe on the Son (the will of the Father).

Devotional practices include the Rosary, the First Saturdays Devotion (going to Mass in honour the Immaculate Heart), meditating on the seven sorrows of Mary (the sorrows being the "sword" that pierced her heart). In a sense Mary is the Immaculate Heart. The Immaculate Heart of Mary is, if you like, a Catholic "code word" for Mary's love and interior life. And quite frankly, most of the times when you read "the Immaculate Heart [of Mary]", you could simply replace it with "Mary" and the meaning would be more or less the same. Again, the title is more devotional than theological, borne out of popular piety rather than theological debate.

Yes, and I am sure all that is all very pious Catholic doctrine. Not supported in any way by Scripture, however, which is what concerns me.

There are generally five different offenses committed against the Immaculate Heart: (1) offenses against the Immaculate Conception, (2) against her virginity, (3) against her being the Mother of God, (4) to foster indifference or hate toward Mary and (5) to desecrate images or icons of Mary. This is the list you'll find online. So to sin against the Immaculate Heart would be to commit these particular offenses.

Wow. I guess I’m guilty of all but the last one, as I am only willing to give Mary the honour and distinction Scripture does, and not a bit more.

And I truly didn’t know that one could “blaspheme” someone or something that isn’t divine.

There also exist the parallel devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, focusing on the Divine Love he has for humanity. The devotion to the Sacred Heart is more popular, I believe, even though the devotion to the Immaculate Heart pre-dates it.

Wait....devotion to Mary predates devotion to Jesus? I really must disagree with you on that. The Scriptures are clear, one should only be devoted in that way to God. The early Church did not do with Mary what the Catholic church has done.

Then there is the joint devotion to the Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary, focusing on both Hearts. Sort of like a "two for one" deal.

A “two for one deal”? No thank you, I’ll just devote myself to Jesus and trust in Him. He alone saves and in Him all grace and forgiveness is found.
 
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Mark_Sam

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How does one “blaspheme” a fellow, mortal human being?

Blaspheme: (verb)

* speak irreverently about God or sacred things.

* the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God

* irreverence toward something considered sacred or inviolable

And what exactly would be an example of a “blasphemy” spoken against Mary?
Mary is indeed considered as "something sacred or inviolable".

The word blasphemy is etymologically linked to the word "blame". Blasphemy means to speak evil of God and of sacred things. If it was sacred, then it was blasphemeable. With time, this word has become reserved for the mocking of God alone. It's one of those old-timey words, like how British mayors are still styled "His or (Her) Worship" - even though no one is worshipping them.

Examples of blasphemy against Mary would be destroying or desecrating images or icons of her (yes, people actually do this - artist Andres Serrano has submerged both images of Christ and Mary in urine and claimed that it was "art"). Or it could be to do as Celsus did in the 2nd century and claim things about Mary which I will not even reiterate here. Those are some practical examples. Again, "blasphemy" might not be the most suitable word today, but that's the word we're stuck with.

Wait....devotion to Mary predates devotion to Jesus? I really must disagree with you on that. The Scriptures are clear, one should only be devoted in that way to God. The early Church did not do with Mary what the Catholic church has done.
What I meant was that the particular devotion to Mary under the title of "the Immaculate Heart" predates the particular devotion to Jesus under the title of "the Sacred Heart". Devotion to the Immaculate Heart was popularized by St. John Eudes (1601-1680) in the late 1640's, while devotion to the Sacred Heart was popularized by St. Margaret Mary Alacoque (1647-1690) in the early 1680's.
 
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Mark_Sam

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As this is a thread on Marian apparitions, I don't intend to derail it. As Catholics we'll be the first to admit that many things we do and believe do not come from Scripture. Our claim is that Catholic belief and practices are consistent with Scripture, and that Scripture alone is itself unbiblical.

But I will point out, however, that private apparitions (Marian or otherwise) are not a source of doctrine, binding on the faithful. But Marian apparitions often display a relatively developed Mariology. Marian doctrines are based on Scripture and/or Tradition, and have often developed over the centuries, and apparitions might confirm certain Marian doctrines for that particular individual seeing it. But again - not binding on the faithful, not a source of doctrine.
 
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amariselle

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Mary is indeed considered as "something sacred or inviolable".

Yes, according to Catholic doctrine and tradition. I understand that.

The word blasphemy is etymologically linked to the word "blame". Blasphemy means to speak evil of God and of sacred things. If it was sacred, then it was blasphemeable. With time, this word has become reserved for the mocking of God alone. It's one of those old-timey words, like how British mayors are still styled "His or (Her) Worship" - even though no one is worshipping them.

Fair enough. I have never “blamed” Mary for anything, nor have I ever spoken a single word against her. I give her every honour and distinction Scripture gives her. She is indeed “blessed among women” for finding favour with God and being chosen as the mother of Jesus.

What I will not say is that she can offer salvation to anyone, that she is “Queen of Heaven”, “co-redemptrix”, “Mediator of all graces” etc. I will not go beyond or against the inspired word of God or give her honours and praise and veneration that belongs to God alone.

Interestingly, this is another definition of “blasphemy”:

“the act of claiming the attributes of a deity

Examples of blasphemy against Mary would be destroying or desecrating images or icons of her (yes, people actually do this - artist Andres Serrano has submerged both images of Christ and Mary in urine and claimed that it was "art"). Or it could be to do as Celsus did in the 2nd century and claim things about Mary which I will not even reiterate here. Those are some practical examples. Again, "blasphemy" might not be the most suitable word today, but that's the word we're stuck with.

Well, I’m not going to get into the whole icon and image debate here.

What I meant was that the particular devotion to Mary under the title of "the Immaculate Heart" predates the particular devotion to Jesus under the title of "the Sacred Heart". Devotion to the Immaculate Heart was popularized by St. John Eudes (1601-1680) in the late 1640's, while devotion to the Sacred Heart was popularized by St. Margaret Mary Alacoque (1647-1690) in the early 1680's.

Alright.

My greatest concern with “Our Lady of Fatima” is that she promised salvation to those who would devote themselves her her Immaculate Heart”.

As Scripture plainly and repeatedly tells us that salvation is in Christ alone, and warns us of “another Gospel”, why should any Christian believe the apparition at Fatima was actually Mary?

It’s intersting to note that given the above definition of “blasphemy”, (claiming the attributes of a deity), this “apparition” could be said to have done precisely that in promising salvation to all who would devote themselves to her.

I do not believe that “Our Lady of Fatima” was Mary. Can anyone truly imagine the real Mary asking that people devote themselves to her “Immaculate Heart” and promising them salvation if they did so? The real Mary would have pointed people to her Son, Who is the only hope of salvation.
 
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